RSPB advert in Sporting Shooter

[Ferret Master]

Hi,

 

I read the RSPB advert in Sporting Shooter just now titled 'A bad apple can spoil everything' and it then has a number to call about people killing birds of prey...

 

Then 3 pages later there is an article in the keeper's news section saying that it's better to just phone the police or Crimestoppers if they wish to be anonomous.

 

Your views on the matter please.

 

FM

[Trussman]

Realistically, how many people are going to report a fellow keeper or shooter for shooting a BoP?

 

I don't condone the shooting of such birds, but I cerainly wouldn't want to have to report anyone.

[Baldrick]

The RSPB is wasting its money, and needlessly polluting the pages of a decent magazine.

[jonevo]

The RSPB is wasting its money, and needlessly polluting the pages of a decent magazine.

Shame really ,money would have been better spent on bird boxes or fat balls

[Imperfection]

When you think the RSPB is funded from donations-its criminal that they chose to waste xxx amount on this full page advertisment in a shooting magazine.

 

It would be like Bernard Mathews sticking an ad in vegeterian weekly.

[lurcherboy]

They would be the last people on my phone list for any animal transgression.

 

*******

 

 

 

 

 

LB

[anser2]

I doubt that the RSPB put that ad in in the hopes of one shooter shopping another. More likely its there to make anyone who might be tempted to think twice.

[GJUK]

The RSPB is wasting its money, and needlessly polluting the pages of a decent magazine.

 

The advert seems to be working. You're talking about it for a start...

[Chard]

They've got to do something. Persecution of birds of prey is going through the roof again, and it's field sports that will be in the spotlight for it again. It's futile for the shooting organisations to try getting Joe Public to support field sports while this is going on, Joe Public are not as stupid as some would depict them .

 

There is currently a high profile hoo-hah going on about where all the birds of prey in the Peak District have gone. Everybody knows, nobody can prove it. Nobody needs to prove it and the public opinion of field sports is at an all-time low. Anybody with any wick in their lamp can see what a perfect habitat the Peak District is for raptors and there are hardly any around now. Doesn't take a degree to work out what's going on there.

[cornishclay]

Anybody that kills a BoP deserves to be shopped to the police. There is no excuse for shooting them by mistake.....positive identification of target and all that. They have as much a right to be here as anyone and anything else including any pheasants/partridge/grouse that maybe laid down. They are beautiful animals and we have got to live and play alongside them.

 

Ok man & beast have to get on and if there are excessive numbers of any particular BoP in an area and the game birds are being decimated then perhaps there is an argument for some kind of legal control of the BoP. However I am not aware of BoP's killing other animals (chickens, gamebirds etc) indiscriminately like say foxes so should anything be done about it anyway?

 

Are there big problems anyway with BoP's killing large numbers of game birds or do some people just hold a grudge against them without much substance behind it??

[lancashireunter]

Look what happend at Langholm. Birds of prey rise to a certain level, shooting grouse becomes uneconomical, keepers loose their jobs and homes (families homes) grouse not protected so grouse, waders, black game AND birds of prey all disapear.

The RSPB and goverment refuse as usual to even consider the people who are responsible for manageing huge areas of upland areas. Until they realise that the people on the ground hold the key to raptor protection and agree to work with keepers and protect their jobs and homes, as well as hook beaks, no common ground will ever be found.

[Dead-Eyed Duck]

Here's another slant on it, and no doubt it will provoke some response from people that do not read it carefully....

 

In the area where I shoot there (Cheshire and N Wales) there are an increasing amount of B o P's - l see literally hundreds of buzzards where 20 years ago there were none, plus the occasional red kite etc.

 

All of these feed on things that we like to shoot - rabbits, young game birds, plus the occasional dead animal.

 

Now, all this seems to me that B o P protection is working. For this we can thank the RSPB and shooters - let's not forget that most of these birds breed in areas that are shot over, and most shooters like to see them about as a sign that managed ecology is working.

 

Anyone that intentionally shoots/kills a B o P deserves all that the law can throw at them, and let's not forget also that the RSPB has a 'vested interest' in promoting what they do, and to a certain extent slagging off the shooting fraternity as villains. I don't know how many members there are in the RSPB (no doubt the info is on the way now), but their financial clout is huge and we conflict with them at our peril.

 

In any managed eco system there are winners and losers - if the number if foxes was not managed then they would become an even greater pest than they can be now. If we did not control their numbers then it would seem to me that the 'natural' way of population control would be disease and starvation when their prey levels fall below sustainable levels.

 

Similarly (taking a huge breath), how should the numbers of B o P's be managed once their numbers has grown to the extent that they begin to affect the natural balance in the countryside? I don't know the answer to this one, and I am not promoting that they be culled.

 

Thoughtful comments please.

 

Don

[anser2]

The past record of shooters and birds of prey is not a good one. The picture up to 40-50 years ago was Common buzzards exterminated in Eastern and much of southern England, Ospreys exterminated across the UK , Goshawks exterminated across the UK , Marsh harriers reduced to a single pair in the 1960s , Red kites exterminated outside Wales , Sea Eagles exterminated , Honey buzzards down to a hand full of pairs in Hampshire , Peregrines restricted to isolated areas, hen harriers restricted to a few isolated moor lands in N England and Scotland, sparrow hawks scarce in Eastern England. Its true that for sparrow hawks and peregrines organio chlorines had a role , but in all the other cases it was gamekeepers who were responsible for " controlling " raptors. Their form of control was extermination on the majority of estates.

 

Today we are seeing a more emlighted attitude from the majority of keepers and as a result raptor numbers are starting to return to their natural numbers in some species. For a number of species there is still a long way to go before they reach their natural population levels. The shooting community is going to learn to live with raptors and adapt their game rearing to allow for their presence of raptors not remove raptors from the countryside.

 

With such a track record does anyone seriously think any form of control would ever be put back in shooters hands. I think the public would rather see shooting stopped than allow the control of raptors and those who take the law into their own hands are just speeding up the day when our sport finally gets banned.

 

Compared to the number of game birds killed on the roads and by farming operations hawks kill a very small percentage of our game bird population

Edited January 1, 2009 by anser2

[Dead-Eyed Duck]

A considered reply anser, although I would say that serious raptor persecution ended more than 25 years ago.

 

My post was to provoke thought, and I agree with most of what you have said.

 

Any action will have to come from the RSPB, and it will be interesting to see just how far grouse numbers deteriorate before Hen Harrier numbers decline in response.

 

I live next to a RSPB local committee member, who considers that pigeon shooting is a waste of time as more are killed by bad weather and poor food supply in the winter !!

 

I do know that there are some 'reasonable' RSPB members, but there are also some who would like to have an effigy of Peter Scott burnt as he used to be a wildfowler!

 

Don

[Chard]

A considered reply anser, although I would say that serious raptor persecution ended more than 25 years ago.

 

Raptor persecution is as rampant as it ever was in game areas. The Peak District and Forest of Bowland being classic examples. Even a few years ago (5-10 years ago) there was a healthy population of Goshawks near Ladybower - all gone now. Everybody knows what's happened to them. The public are not even remotely impressed with the denials and innocence. They know exactly what goes on and even the tolerant ones wouldn't support game shooting if push came to shove, they're not remotely interested if a Buzzard nicks a few game chicks, they don't agree that shooters should have a monopoly on everything in nature. Anser2 mentioned Honey Buzzards - there's a classic example. I know of at least 5 traditional Honey Buzzard nest sites deserted in the last decade. This is a migrant bird that feeds almost exclusively on wasp grubs - persecuted by game interests because it's got a hooked beak and because the perpetrators of this crime are too ******* stupid to learn about nature before they kill everything.

 

Public support for field sports will decline as fast as the raptors - end of story. Peregrines and Goshawks and even Sparrowhawks were recovering well, but now the persecution has started again. I agree that Buzzards are increasing again, as are Kites and Ospreys. Everybody knows that that situation will not be allowed to continue. Illegal persecution of these species will start as soon as populations reach a healthy level. Everybody knows there would never be a "cull" it would be a free-for-all, legal or otherwise, that wouldn't stop till they were back on the brink again. There's no point in trying to convince me otherwise, because I've been involved in this argument for decades and the occasional anecdote about a Sparrowhawk killing a gamebird doesn't impress me. It's the public that need to be convinced and they shouldn't automatically be dismissed as stupid - there's plenty of them that aren't.

[Dead-Eyed Duck]

Raptor persecution is as rampant as it ever was in game areas. The Peak District and Forest of Bowland being classic examples. Even a few years ago (5-10 years ago) there was a healthy population of Goshawks near Ladybower - all gone now. Everybody knows what's happened to them. The public are not even remotely impressed with the denials and innocence. They know exactly what goes on and even the tolerant ones wouldn't support game shooting if push came to shove, they're not remotely interested if a Buzzard nicks a few game chicks, they don't agree that shooters should have a monopoly on everything in nature. Anser2 mentioned Honey Buzzards - there's a classic example. I know of at least 5 traditional Honey Buzzard nest sites deserted in the last decade. This is a migrant bird that feeds almost exclusively on wasp grubs - persecuted by game interests because it's got a hooked beak and because the perpetrators of this crime are too ******* stupid to learn about nature before they kill everything.

 

Public support for field sports will decline as fast as the raptors - end of story. Peregrines and Goshawks and even Sparrowhawks were recovering well, but now the persecution has started again. I agree that Buzzards are increasing again, as are Kites and Ospreys. Everybody knows that that situation will not be allowed to continue. Illegal persecution of these species will start as soon as populations reach a healthy level. Everybody knows there would never be a "cull" it would be a free-for-all, legal or otherwise, that wouldn't stop till they were back on the brink again. There's no point in trying to convince me otherwise, because I've been involved in this argument for decades and the occasional anecdote about a Sparrowhawk killing a gamebird doesn't impress me. It's the public that need to be convinced and they shouldn't automatically be dismissed as stupid - there's plenty of them that aren't.

 

Wow, there's some emotion here Chard, some of which I struggle to get to grips with.

 

You grudgingly admit that Buzzards, Kites etc are on the increase (obvious to anybody) and then throw in loose explosive phrases such as 'Everybody knows what happened to the Goshawks near Ladybower'. Well, I for one don't, and in my ignorance (in the absence of undeniable evidence) would propose that they have been subject to a localised disease - yes it does happen! Also, 'Raptor persecution is as rampant as ever it was' is clearly wrong - decades ago gamekeepers and shooters were actively encouraged to shoot raptors as a legal activity, whereas now it is actively discouraged and against the law.

 

The RSPB have enough members on the ground to watch any suspect areas and produce the necessary prosecutions - as has happened with a very small number of high publicity cases in very recent times.

 

As in any job there are no doubt a very small number of rogue gamekeepers, but I do know a few, and most would not be stupid enough to jeopardise their jobs and the risk of jail by illegal persecution of raptors.

 

I don't agree that illegal persecutions will start again once healthy populations are reached, as education amongst the shooting fraternity will prevent this - Once it was 'acceptable' to shoot raptors, and now it is not (a bit like now only mindless pillocks drink and drive, whereas before the correct education it was highly acceptable unless you were directly involved).

 

I started this thread as part of the education process, and it seems to have worked. Only by talking about it will the education process progress further.

 

Don

[Chard]

You grudgingly admit that Buzzards, Kites etc are on the increase (obvious to anybody) and then throw in loose explosive phrases such as 'Everybody knows what happened to the Goshawks near Ladybower'. Well, I for one don't, and in my ignorance (in the absence of undeniable evidence) would propose that they have been subject to a localised disease - yes it does happen! Also, 'Raptor persecution is as rampant as ever it was' is clearly wrong - decades ago gamekeepers and shooters were actively encouraged to shoot raptors as a legal activity, whereas now it is actively discouraged and against the law.

 

As far as I can see, the only thing that's changed about raptor persecution since protection was introduced, is that it's now done covertly.

 

This is where the Ladybower Goshawks went :

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/3484908.stm

 

He got his wrist slapped, but he or someone connected continued to clear the rest of them out of the valley.

 

Like I say, it's not me that needs convincing (that isn't possible) it's Joe Public. I haven't got a lot of time for the RSPB or twitchers. I agree their views are jaundiced and one-sided. The vast majority of the public have moderate views and are happy for country sports to flourish. However, their tolerance will be eroded by illegal persecution of raptors. They don't use words like "vermin" and they can't and won't accept that shooters are justified in eradicating endemic species from the countryside in order to protect a sport.

[Dead-Eyed Duck]

As far as I can see, the only thing that's changed about raptor persecution since protection was introduced, is that it's now done covertly.

 

This is where the Ladybower Goshawks went :

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/3484908.stm

 

He got his wrist slapped, but he or someone connected continued to clear the rest of them out of the valley.

 

Like I say, it's not me that needs convincing (that isn't possible) it's Joe Public. I haven't got a lot of time for the RSPB or twitchers. I agree their views are jaundiced and one-sided. The vast majority of the public have moderate views and are happy for country sports to flourish. However, their tolerance will be eroded by illegal persecution of raptors. They don't use words like "vermin" and they can't and won't accept that shooters are justified in eradicating endemic species from the countryside in order to protect a sport.

 

An eloquent reply Chard, and I for one wouldn't disagree with a word of it.

 

All we can do is to continue with getting the message across - that all forms of shooting have to abide with the existing law, and that blatant infringement should be heavily enforced.

 

Don