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Taking non licence holders shooting with you


Ozzy Fudd
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If you rent it how can you be the occupier owner ?

 

cos it doesnt say owner anywhere, it only says occupier, which is what this thread was started over :good: if i rented a house and lived in it id be classed as the occupier wouldnt i? if i rent land for farming im classed the occupier, even if someone else owns it, so why not if i rent theland for shooting?

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The law states on the land owners land in the land owners presence with the land owners gun :good:

No mention of occupier :good:

 

maybe in england mate, but not northern ireland - i copied this from the actual law itself (after spending an hour reading it - hate ******* legal docs) - look again...

 

Shotguns

 

11. - (1) A person may, without holding a firearm certificate, borrow a shotgun from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the occupier's presence.

 

Rifles

 

10. - (1) A person may, without holding a firearm certificate, borrow a rifle from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the presence of the occupier or an employee of the occupier if -

 

 

(a) the occupier or employee in whose presence the rifle is used holds a firearm certificate for it; and

 

(:yes: the borrower's possession and use of it complies with any conditions as to those matters in the certificate.

 

 

 

 

heres the link, this is the ni firearms order 2004, got onto it from the psni website link to gun laws ni

 

as i said, my understanding is that occupier does not necessarily equate to owner.... :yes:

 

 

BUT!!!! :yes:

 

mainland may be different - look up your own laws!!!!

Edited by babbyc1000
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maybe in england mate, but not northern ireland - i copied this from the actual law itself (after spending an hour reading it - hate ******* legal docs) - look again...

 

Shotguns

 

11. - (1) A person may, without holding a firearm certificate, borrow a shotgun from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the occupier's presence.

 

heres the link, this is the ni firearms order 2004, got onto it from the psni website link to gun laws ni

 

as i said, my understanding is that occupier does not necessarily equate to owner.... :good:

 

 

BUT!!!! :yes:

 

mainland may be different - look up your own laws!!!!

 

Fair do, it does seem different over there and you seem right from what i can see :good:

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From the Act:

Section 11 (5) of the Firearms Act 1968 provides that:

 

A person who does not possess a shotgun certificate may borrow a gun from the occupier of private premises, and use it on those premises in the occupier's presence. (Section 57(4) provides that premises shall include land).

 

 

From Leicester Constabulary Web site:

Section 11(5) of the Firearms Act 1968, allows you, without holding a shotgun certificate, to use a shotgun when you are accompanied by the occupier of the land (landowner or holder of sole shooting rights) to shoot on his land using a shotgun borrowed from the occupier.

 

David

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The bone of contention is the word "occupier" and the interpretation of its legal meaning in a court of law.

Without a test case we will never know.

However, my and I must stress my interpretation as far as shooting rights are concerned is that the act's wording refers to the person whom owns or has leased the shooting rights (and is therefore able to assign them). It does not include Joe Bloggs who has permission to shoot on the land.

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It is a minefield and as Charlie says it almost needs a test case to spell it out, my force for instance says the landowner or his agent and then proceeds to say later in another paragraph that you need to be the occupier, This is why the BASC can't give you any definitive answer as there just isn't one. Their stance obviously is if you don't lend guns then its not an issue and you're safe, which of course you are but it does make a major barrier to anyone joining the sport. I know in ignorance I was lent a gun many times years ago for beaters days etc and not by the keeper.

My inkling is you'd get a ticking off at most rather than it going any further but it would be nice to see it cleared up in a sensible way as it ought to read the person with the right to shoot on the land can lend weapons as lets face it the occupier has no known level of competence yet you are assumed to be responsible or they wouldn't give you a shotgun certificate in the first place.

David I wasn't spoiling for a fight more to see whether you could say a yes or no answer and it appears there isn't one just the fact its an unknown, although it has been done on here before and allegedly your own team advised that the term occupier hasn't been defined but that it can be taken to include those working for the landowner or with permission to shoot in the form of his agent performing pest control duties for him.

 

http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/lof...php/t78161.html

Edited by al4x
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As I have written in several posts here, the term occupier in relation to the Firearms Act is not defined, but would include the owner or someone with a contract of occupation such as a tenant farmer, or indeed I would suggest the shooting tenant who has a lease or other formal agreement. And I would suggest his 'agents' could use his gun, on the land etc- I am thinking here of the terms of the Ground Game Act for example. I don't think it could stretch to the Farming Tennants agent, also being an occupier in this context, though. It would certainly not apply I suggest to 'Jo Blogs' who was shooting pigeons for example in return for a bottle at Christmas.

 

Occupiers have been defined in Law in relation to the Occupiers Liability Act, but generally the definition in the context of this Act seems a little too loose for the police to apply to the Firearms Act.

 

No there has not been a test case; the Home Office offers guidance to the police which errs on the lines of some form of formal contract in evidence. If and it is a big IF you ever got questioned by the police, then this is what you must keep in mind- could you evidence some formal contractual right to be on the land?

 

Remember the Law starts from the point that no one can be in possession of a shotgun with out a licence, then moves onto the few exemptions. As for getting a ticking off, I doubt it, generally the police love getting positive firearms statistics, and as far as a force statistic goes taking action against some poor sod who accidentally falls foul of the law counts as much as taking a 9mm automatic off of a gangster!

 

BASC policy of helping members in such cases is clear- we let the initial case run through the courts, offer as much help, support, expert advice etc to your legal council as they could possibly want, and then let justice take its course. If you are found guilty and it is clear that you have been wronged then the BASC appeals procedure kicks in and if, based on legal opinion, there is a case we will take it forward.

 

The other thread you elude to looks more at defining 'under the supervision of' which is also not clearly defined!

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ok well how would this work. say i get an agreement signed by a farmer that i am leasing his land for a set sum of money every year to hold the shooting rights, would that indicate i was the occupier? or what if i got a letter signed by the farmer saying i was the sole holder of shooting rights on his land, then in that respect it would indicate i was the occupier?

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Assuming the farmer had the shooting rights to lease ( if he is a tennant farmer then the chances are the shooting rights still rest with the land lord) then you are the shooting tennant and an occupier of the land i would say, just like the farmer is a farming tennant and an occupier of the land.

 

As i posted earlier, some constabularies give the example of the holder of the shooting rights as an example of acceptable occupation under this section of the Firearms Act.

 

David

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Assuming the farmer had the shooting rights to lease ( if he is a tennant farmer then the chances are the shooting rights still rest with the land lord) then you are the shooting tennant and an occupier of the land i would say, just like the farmer is a farming tennant and an occupier of the land.

 

As i posted earlier, some constabularies give the example of the holder of the shooting rights as an example of acceptable occupation under this section of the Firearms Act.

 

David

 

cheers, all my farmers are landowners, not tenants :lol:

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shooting rights generally are split though, they divide between game shooting rights and vermin rights. pretty much all tenant farmers have the right to shoot vermin which obviously they can give you permission to do as their agent. Game shooting rights vary considerably I know crown tenants who do have game rights and vice versa others with private landlords who retain the game shooting for themselves

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Spot on Alx – all tenant farmers for example have the right to shoot ground game but as you correctly say the rights to take game, deer, fish etc will often be retailed by the land lord or let to another shooting / sporting tenant, which is why it is so important to make sure the person giving you permission to shoot actually has the shooting rights!

 

Remember, the ground game act 1880 Section 1 puts limits on the number of people outside of the tenant farmer (occupier) who can shoot rabbits to one only if they are not employees or members of his household or resident on his land.

 

David

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I'm sorry David but if there was one law I was going to ignore it would be that one :lol: never heard of it and don't know anybody who complies with it, guess its similar to an Englishmans right to kill a Scotsman and numerous other well and truly outdated laws

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Thats odd as Herts police categorise them as the same in terms of being the Landowner or agent and presumably this is how it works with Estate rifles in Scotland where pretty much anyone can go and use one while with the landowners agent. Can you clarify what the differences are possibly

 

http://www.herts.police.uk/firearms_licens...ry_shooting.htm

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