AVB Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 I recently returned my B-Class merc at the end of the finance agreement. It was one of those balloon payment type and with the fall in value of used cars decided to hand mine back rather than p/x or pay the residual. What I wasn't expecting was an invoice for £900 for damage in excess of their definition of fair wear and tear. To be honest the car was in excellent condition (it had only done 16K in three years), the guy picking it up said so and there was nothing marked as damaged on the form I signed although the small print says that a final, more detailed, examination will be undertaken a the returns centre. They do have a definition of fair wear and tear and I believe that some of the smaller items (chip on windscreen, scuffs on wheels) are within his but there is some damage (very small dent on tailgate) that I don't believe was there when I handed it over. Considering that the car did 150 miles on the return journey what proof do I, of indeed they, have that that the so-called damage was not caused by the reurning driver? I am tempted just to tell them to stuff it and to sue me. I'll pay for the excess mileage but not for the ficticious damage (which is all itemised). Thoughts? Anybody faced this problem. Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libs Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 Its you against the driver. Not a lot you can do really Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosd Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 They should have done the "thorough" inspection in front of you. I trust you have a copy of the inspection carried out by the person who collected the car from you; I suggest you call them and say as far as you are concerned a thorough inspection was done by the person who collected the car, and you have paperwork/inspection sheet signed by that person. As far as the additional damage is concerned, it is down to them to prove this was done prior to their driver collecting the car. They are trying it on, stand by your guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 this gets my goat and why i've gone right off leasing vehicles, we used to lease quite a few vans but what is fair wear and tear over 150K and 3 years their definition and mine were rather different. However back to the main issue damage is one of the biggest issues whenever you hire or lease a vehicle no matter how short or long a period its for, all I can say is check the vehicle as closely as possible when you get it and make sure everything is on the damage form don't leave anything out chips on lights and windscreens are easy to miss yet you can be sure the ******** won't miss them on the vehicles return. Certain rental companies I'll name Enterprise for one I reckon rely on fraudulent damage to make money. In your case if you've a copy of the off hire damage report then dispute the damage you don't agree with, they haven't got a leg to stand on if its been checked by their employee and then driven home Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted April 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Thanks I gave them call this morning. They are obviously used to people objecting as the bloke on the phone immediately went into negotiation mode offering to knock the list of damage down. I paid the excess mileage and offered to pay for the one (smallish) chip which was recorded on the form and I was aware of but we couldn't agree on the remainder so he said he would escalate it to his manager and get back to me. I'm feeling confident enough to just tell them to sue me if they want to go through the hassle and I'll raise a complaint with the FSA. This whole thing has put me off of these sort of balloon payment deals and Mercedes in particular. Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 they're all the same and you get the same issues if you ever hire a car or van, I hate it as I have to deal with a fair few through work and it all turns into a paperwork nightmare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Avb , Stick to your guns and dont pay them a penny . I can assure you that no repairs will be done to the car and it will be sold off into the trade . It just another way of ripping you off for more money . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leaseone Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 You must always take pictures of the car and make it known that you have them, It always works for my customers Also fill out your own appraisal and make the collecting driver sign it. Not one has had to pay anything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wisecobandit Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Takes the mickey.How does anyone catorgarize (spell) what 3 years of wear and tear is on a car and how could you define it??? Excess mileage speaks for itself but 16k in 3 years is hardly anything so where you on a low mileage deal or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted April 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Takes the mickey.How does anyone catorgarize (spell) what 3 years of wear and tear is on a car and how could you define it???Excess mileage speaks for itself but 16k in 3 years is hardly anything so where you on a low mileage deal or something? Mercedes do give you a booklet (after you have signed the deal though) explaining their wear and tear policy, including measurement of scratches, number and location of dents etc. It seems comprehensive at the time but of course when you have to work to it there are a number of grey areas. The other unfair thing is that the overall condition of the car isn't taken into account. So the car could be faultless apart from one scratch bigger than their threshold and you would have to pay whilst another car could have tens of scratches and dents all within the threshold and you wouldn't have to pay. It would be fairer if each item of wear and tear had a points value and you were allowed say 50 points. which could be one bigish thing or 10 smaller things. Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosd Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Mercedes do give you a booklet (after you have signed the deal though) explaining their wear and tear policy, including measurement of scratches, number and location of dents etc. It seems comprehensive at the time but of course when you have to work to it there are a number of grey areas. The other unfair thing is that the overall condition of the car isn't taken into account. So the car could be faultless apart from one scratch bigger than their threshold and you would have to pay whilst another car could have tens of scratches and dents all within the threshold and you wouldn't have to pay. It would be fairer if each item of wear and tear had a points value and you were allowed say 50 points. which could be one bigish thing or 10 smaller things. Andrew Andrew, The point is, they can only pin you with damage spotted by them whilst you were present. They cannot take the car away then say they found more damage after a thorough inspection. Stick to your guns and say you carried out a thorough inspection yourself, and everything was spotted and noted by the person who collected the car. If the car has picked up further damage since it left your possession, then it's down to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegasus bridge Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 (edited) this gets my goat and why i've gone right off leasing vehicles, we used to lease quite a few vans but what is fair wear and tear over 150K and 3 years their definition and mine were rather different. However back to the main issue damage is one of the biggest issues whenever you hire or lease a vehicle no matter how short or long a period its for, all I can say is check the vehicle as closely as possible when you get it and make sure everything is on the damage form don't leave anything out chips on lights and windscreens are easy to miss yet you can be sure the ******** won't miss them on the vehicles return. Certain rental companies I'll name Enterprise for one I reckon rely on fraudulent damage to make money. In your case if you've a copy of the off hire damage report then dispute the damage you don't agree with, they haven't got a leg to stand on if its been checked by their employee and then driven home it depends on the contract, it is very common and not unreasonable to have a clause relating to a more thorough check once the vehicle has been cleaned. a delivery driver is not usually able to carry out a thorough inspection following a 3 year lease how about if you collected a vehicle in the rain? or dirty? both very common scenarios, and the only way to deal with this fairly is to be able to inspect within a short timeframe. This is especially true with a three year lease, as opposed to a 2 day hire from a rental company- but it works both ways - if you had a rental car delivered in the rain, you would expect to be able to carry out a reasonable insepction once it was dry wouldnt you? my advice would be take pics at the time the vehicle is taken, then be prepared to escalate it within the company until you get someone who is not just following a process map. As for the fair wear and tear - the BVRLA issue clear guidance to all members to follow when charging for end of life damage. but - It is surprising how many companies at grass roots level do not know how to apply this. There is also a seperate guide for LCV's Edited April 21, 2009 by pegasus bridge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted April 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 it depends on the contract, it is very common and not unreasonable to have a clause relating to a more thorough check once the vehicle has been cleaned. a delivery driver is not usually able to carry out a thorough inspection following a 3 year lease how about if you collected a vehicle in the rain? or dirty? both very common scenarios, and the only way to deal with this fairly is to be able to inspect within a short timeframe. This is especially true with a three year lease, as opposed to a 2 day hire from a rental company- but it works both ways - if you had a rental car delivered in the rain, you would expect to be able to carry out a reasonable insepction once it was dry wouldnt you? my advice would be take pics at the time the vehicle is taken, then be prepared to escalate it within the company until you get someone who is not just following a process map. As for the fair wear and tear - the BVRLA issue clear guidance to all members to follow when charging for end of life damage. but - It is surprising how many companies at grass roots level do not know how to apply this. There is also a seperate guide for LCV's Thanks. I looked on the Intenet for some info about BVRLA and found some interesting info. I wish I had taken photos as you suggested but I didn't. I haven't heard back from Mercedes yet, I assume I will, and I will still offer to pay for what I believe to be fair. If they don't like it they can come after me for the money. I haven't got any after yesterdays budget so they won't get much! What I don't get is why, when I buy a car from my local Mercedes garage, I can't return it to the same garage where it could be inspected (which was what I expected when I purchased the car)? No, I either have to drive it myself 150 miles to Birmingham or somebody collects it and we have a debate over what damage they caused vs what I caused. It seems open to conflict to me. Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agusta Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 I had the same issue with land rover, they came to pick it up, no damage, nothing, signed the paper work. A few days later a letter came through asking for £900 (damage not recorded on the paper work signed) I told them to shove it and reported them to the FSA. Few weeks passed another letter from land rover apologizing and dropped the charges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notsosureshot Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 I also recently had an issue with Mercedes with a car which was on lease. My wife reversed into a trolley in Asda (Oh joy) which left a cross shaped dent in the tailgate as they call it. We had this repaired by a professional body shop and thought no more about it. Oddly, in addition to this, at the sides of the tailgate handle were two very shallow dents which looked as though they had been caused by someone shutting the boot too hard, or perhaps a small impact from something else. The bodyshop said this was common on this particular model and were unsure what was causing it. Tight straps they said, what ever that is. Mercedes driver picked the vehicle up and said there were no issues. A week later we get the call that they want £1500 for a new tailgate unit and full respray of the vehicle. This was after we'd already paid £250 to a bodyshop for the dent removal and spray. They then proceded to lie about a whole manner of things. As it was my right to do, I refered Mercedes to the body shop. As per the Mercedes terms and conditions, I was entitled to have repairs carried out by any professional and not necessarily at the main dealer. Then it all got messy. The garage denied doing the work at all. Mercedes then accused me of doing a "poor respray" myself. I had to get my dad to sign an affdavit saying that he had been with me during the collection of my vehicle (he'd given me a lift to get it) and that the garage had indeed done the work. Mercedes chased them and surprise surprise, the garage had done the work but lost the invoice, which they'd never even issued (VAT fraud basically). Mercedes then persued me for the money. To cap it all off, the garage then lied about their findings, saying they had told me that the car needed a replacement tailgate and I had told them to do the "cheapest possible" repair, a barefaced lie which again my father attested to. I told Mercedes to whistle and that I'd done everything possible to keep the car in top condition (main dealer servicing, not a mark on the alloys) and that shoddy workmanship of the garage aside, I had kept my side of the agreement. If I had been a cheap skate, I'd hardly have had it main dealer serviced would I? Took them a while to realise this of course. In the end, they attempted to charge me nearly £2000 on the vehicle upon return. I ended up paying exactly £0.00 but it did cost me a bit in postage. So, you're not alone in Mercedes trying to rip you off but stick to your guns and write them rather than calling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reedbradshaw Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 I had a simular problem...all beit with a seat and not a merc! After months and months of being ****** off with the local seat garage over a recall (claimed they needed car for a week when other seat owners on a car forum had a "while you wait job" done). I took the car in for something to be fixed under the warranty. Upon return of the inspection form i noticed it had not been marked, not one bit. I then argued that the SEAT garage had put the little dent in my door, the tiny stone chips to the front of my car and the small scuff on my alloy and ordered them to repair it. They of course contested this but i just shown them the inspection paper THEY had signed saying there were zero signs of damage to the car. After a panel remould, touch up spray and 4 reconditioned alloys i was happy Im not a dis honest man, its just i thought...why not? they had put me through plenty of trouble...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrycatcat1 Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 they're all the same and you get the same issues if you ever hire a car or van, I hate it as I have to deal with a fair few through work and it all turns into a paperwork nightmare I am not disagreeing with anything anyone has said but about 8 or 9 years ago I used to run a car and van hire business and I once had a car come back and when I looked around it the chap said "everything is just as I took it" . When I looked inside the gear **** had been chewed to death I said to him have you got a dog he said yes I have a Staffordshire bull terrier why? I said well you must have good teeth or your dog has chewed the gear ****. "Oh yeah I meant to tell you about that" Another car came back and it should have had black cloth seats but it looked like he had been transporting a polar bear it was covered in white/cream fur. What do you mean he says "it'l only take 5 minutes to hoover it out" "I said well bring it back in 10 minutes when you've done it" Bloke brought a luton van back once with all the top of the luton body smashed and the chassis was like a humped back bridge I said "what's happened here then" he said "Oh I hit a low bridge" So for everyone's sake check it out and in thoroughly for any damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted June 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 I got closure on this last week. I sent a letter to Mercedes saying that as I hadn't heard anything from them for a while I assume that the matter was closed. Got a phone call soon after saying that they would settle for the small ding on the rear bumper (which I was aware of). So £197 instead of £900 they originally claimed. Thanks for everyones advice. Andrew :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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