PCP and 12ft/lb

[Axe]

Ive just read thread on another forum where the guys are on about having thier PCP rifles set at a lower 10.5ft/lb in order to be within the 12ft/lb rule, should the police ever test them with heavier pellets.

 

I dont actually own a PCP just yet but have been considering it for a while. After looking into the various threads posted about PCP's etc i've learnt that heavier pellets weights can give you higher ft/lb. So if the rifle is running at near on 12 on a lighter pellet using a heavier pellet would take you well over the 12ft/lb limit.

 

Just wondered what you guys think and feel about the whole thing.

 

Regards,

 

Axe.

[plexer]

I think it's absolutely daft I mean you get your combo all set up so that it's giving you the best possible output as we all know different guns like different pellets.

 

So you get yours all nicely set up with it's favourite pellet just under the 12ft/lb limit but in doing so it could go over it with a different pellet.

 

As a law obiding citizen if you found a new pellet that gave you a better result then you'd setup with that so your gun was just under the legal limit.

 

At the end of the day you want good clean kills so I don't think it's fair that they test with anything but what you've set it up with.

[Gamekeeper]

I would have thought that using heavier pellets would decrease, not increase, the foot-pound rating, because the energy released by the spring will be shared more equally between the pellet and the rifle. The lighter the pellet, the easier it is to shift, the faster it goes and the higher the energy.

 

What is this other forum where you read this discussion?

[hawkeye]

If and when mr plod checks your airrifle to see if you comply with 12lb limit they use in there tests LIGHT MEDIUM and HEAVY pellets.i run one at 11.5ftlbs.on accupels but if i use bisley magnums that i have for my FAC airrifle it take my 12 footer well over the top.

[old rooster]

I would have thought that using heavier pellets would decrease, not increase, the foot-pound rating, because the energy released by the spring will be shared more equally between the pellet and the rifle. The lighter the pellet, the easier it is to shift, the faster it goes and the higher the energy.

 

What is this other forum where you read this discussion?

He's talking precharged here, not springers. Lots of things to consider as well as weight, hardness of pellet and drag in the barrel to name but a few.

 

See how people panic over irrelevant issues, it's how the government control us, you don't automatically become a mass murderer or an antisocial thug if your PCP creeps over the 12ftlb mark using a different pellet. Ask yourself what it really means to us responsible users. Absolutely pointless

 

Half the police walking around wouldn't be able to tell the difference between an air rifle and a shotgun so how likely is it that they are going to chrono your air rifle when you are using it legitimately on land where you have permission to shoot.

 

Only time it may be a problem is in FT competition as I understand that they chrono your gun when you enter.

[rogo]

I would have thought that using heavier pellets would decrease, not increase, the foot-pound rating, because the energy released by the spring will be shared more equally between the pellet and the rifle.  The lighter the pellet, the easier it is to shift, the faster it goes and the higher the energy.

 

What is this other forum where you read this discussion?

He's talking precharged here, not springers. Lots of things to consider as well as weight, hardness of pellet and drag in the barrel to name but a few.

 

See how people panic over irrelevant issues, it's how the government control us, you don't automatically become a mass murderer or an antisocial thug if your PCP creeps over the 12ftlb mark using a different pellet. Ask yourself what it really means to us responsible users. Absolutely pointless

 

Half the police walking around wouldn't be able to tell the difference between an air rifle and a shotgun so how likely is it that they are going to chrono your air rifle when you are using it legitimately on land where you have permission to shoot.

 

Only time it may be a problem is in FT competition as I understand that they chrono your gun when you enter.

You may well be true about half the plod not knowing.....but it only takes one in a bad mood or as i have been on the receiving end of, an anti calling the police and saying that i was shooting badgers (on my land with permission) and the police turn up and have a chat. They didn't take any action because after talking to me and the owner realised they had had their time waisted but not all are like that.

 

The chances (i think( are extremely slim that anyone would be stopped and have their gun taken off them for Chrono'ing at their local gunshop, unless your stupid enough to walk down the road or whatever, but you never know.

 

Mike.

[roblade]

how many people out there could tell the difference between a rifle shooting at 11.9 F/Lbs and a rifle shooting at 10.9 F/Lbs? (just by shooting them side by side)

 

as long as you can shoot accuratly and your not going for the excessivly long shots i dont think you would notice any difference shooting or bag size with either of those two rifles.

 

once not so long ago i did think that power=big bag but after useing my TX running at 9.5 F/lbs can confidently say accuracy=big bag.

 

do i rember reading some where that minimum energy required to humanly hunt with was 3F/lbs? (energy at range shooting NOT at the muzzel!) could be wrong about that and i dont have chair gun.

 

if someone as got chair gun they could work out the minimum required muzzle energy to give 3F/Lbs at 35 yards please.

 

(im tired and my brains not working propery might edit this or add to a bit latter)

 

ROB :thumbs:

[dr_nick]

As you know I bought an air arms tx200. Interestingly in the manual they put a section about how they tested the gun. It basically says its set up to be 11.5ftlbs with their own brand of pellet and to use other brands might take you over the 12ftlbs limit.

 

I take this to read that if the police do check your rifle, they have to use the ammo that you have been using. If they didn't then any half decent solicitor would be able to rip any prosecution to shreds by simply stating that the set up that you used was perfectly legal and provide crono evidence to prove it.

 

With PCP guns, the heavier the pellet the longer it stays within the barrel (due to slower acceleration) and the more energy it can absorb from the air charge. On very light pellets, they accelerate much faster and are not as efficient at getting the maximum energy from a charge of air. These are not huge differences, maybe of .5 ftlbs or so. If you want the proof take a look at the power generated by air pistols with the same gun but different calibers.

 

Example

 

Webley Nemesis

Power .177cal 3.1ft lbs .22cal 3.4ft lbs

 

Webley Hurricane

Power .177cal 3.1ft lbs .22cal 3.4ft lbs

[old rooster]

You need to consider kinetic and potential energy when looking into this, either that or just get on and enjoy using your gun. If you have purchased it and it was set up by the manufacturer to shoot with any given pellet at under 12 ftlbs do you think any court, even in this crazy land, would convict you for using another type of pellet that took it to say 12.5 ftlbs ?

 

It's precisely this kind of nagging worry that I find so irritating, as law abiding citizens we concern ourselves with these irrelevancies while the criminals just carry on as usual.

 

If you get caught just tell them you are an out of work Lithuanian illegal immigrant and ask where you need to go to pick up a cheque for £2,500 so you can buy yourself a car to look for work.

[Fisherman Mike]

Ultimately the gun is set at just below 12ftlb at the manufacturers using a standard grain test pellet.....

 

End of story...

 

As long as you dont tinker with it and adjust the manufacturers settings you are not at risk.

 

Incidently my Hornet chronos at 12. 0 ftlb with powapell and 11.9 ftlbs with Bisley magnums.

 

Where as my Axor shows 12 .50 ftlbs with magnums and 12.20 with powapell.

 

The gun has never been modified to my knowledge but this extra .3 ftlb over the hornet using the powapell is not discernable.

 

I shouldnt worry too much

 

FM.

[dr_nick]

From The usa

 

Broward man shoots car to put it out of misery

 

LAUDERDALE-BY-THE-SEA, Fla. (AP) -- A man with car trouble is in trouble after shooting his 1994 Chrysler LeBaron.

 

John McGivney, 64, pumped five rounds from a .380-caliber semiautomatic into the hood, Broward County sheriff's deputies said Tuesday.

 

When the property manager at his apartment complex asked what he was doing, McGivney said, "I'm putting my car out of its misery." He tucked his gun in a pocket and went back inside.

 

Deputies responding to a report of gunshots Friday ordered McGivney to come out of his apartment and arrested him on a misdemeanor charge of discharging a firearm in public. He posted $100 bail Saturday.

 

McGivney said the car has been giving him trouble for years and has "outlived its usefulness." He called the shooting "dumb" and worries he will be evicted. But he doesn't regret it.

 

"I think every guy in the universe has wanted to do it," McGivney told the South Florida Sun-Sentinel on Tuesday. "It was worth every damn minute in that jail."

 

And we worry over 1ftlb in energy in an air gun :thumbs:

Edited April 21, 2005 by dr_nick

[rogo]

taken off as i can't explain myself properly.

Edited April 21, 2005 by rogo

[old rooster]

taken off as i can't explain myself properly.

Wrong it is down to the manufacturer if you haven't tampered with it. Sale of goods act, fitness for purpose.

 

I can't believe the amount of concern some of you guys have over a limit which has no real meaning or value. If you drive your car in excess of the speed limit there is an allowance made, do you think the "powers that be" haven't got better things to do than check whether your air rifle is making 12.5 ftlbs with certain pellets ?. I wonder if they check the guns taken from yobbos shooting at firemen or old ladies walking down the street.

 

Some of you would go to bed at 9 o'clock if a law was passed saying that you should. Let's get beyond spoiling our lives by worrying about petty, irrelevant issues and tackle the insidious causes of the problems.

Edited April 21, 2005 by old rooster

[red_stag88]

When I've (finally) finished making my PCP, I'll make it at 12ft/lb, and wait till my FAC comes up for renewall and get an FAC Airgun on it. I can then fiddle with the strenght to find the right combination of strenght and amount of shots per fill.

[Axe]

Personally i'm not sure i'd worry too much if a given rifle was just over the 12ft/lb with heavier pellets as long as the pellets I would be using are below the limit.

 

Others have mentioned though (Other Forum), that the actual ft/lb measured using heavier pellets was in excess of 14.5 as a constant. One chap even mentioned reaching 26 but this was due to dieseling after a clean.

 

I dont hold an FAC or Shotgun licence and I guess im a little more concerened with the limit than a licence holder would be, especially as i'm relatively new to the field having moved from back garden plinking.

 

I would imagine a licence holder may get more of 'the benefit of the doubt', if ever a Police test showed just over the 12ft/lb limit.

 

Perhaps a call to the local FA Officer wouldnt hurt.

 

Regards,

 

Axe.

[arjimlad]

Whilst I have every sympathy with what Old Rooster says and think we do worry too much about these things it is useful to examine what the legislation says.

 

The regulations governing "Dangerous Air Weapons" were first made in 1969 and amended in 1993. What they say is

 

"(a) which is capable of discharging a missile so that the missile has, on being discharged from the muzzle of the weapon, kinetic energy in excess, in the case of an air pistol, of 6ft. lb. or, in the case of an air weapon other than an air pistol, of 12ft. lb., or

 

( which is disguised as another object."

 

And that is a quote. Not a paraphrase.

 

 

The key words are "which is capable of" - so that if any particular pellet gives over 12 ft lbs then you are technically guilty of the offence which is a strict liability one and also subject to the much vaunted 5 year minimum sentence. In the legislation which brought about the 5 yr minimum sentence, Judges do have discretion to give a lesser sentence and some have done so even where the accused has deliberately set out to acquire a semi-automatic full bore handgun and had in his possession the kit & components to make ammo. Last I heard was that the Police generally use Eley Wasps but this may vary and the forensic labs may use a variety of ammo.

 

When I bought my first house the police inspected my cabinet in situ (with airguns only in it) one day, and later that month, when I brought the guns up from my parents house, a different officer visited to inspect those as well.

 

It turned out that the first officer, seeing my Titan Mohawk in the cabinet instructed the second to take it away for testing to see whether it was over the limit. :thumbs: :< As if anyone would leave a deliberately over the limit gun in their cabinet when they expected the Police to call !

 

I may look stupid etc....

 

I was preparing myself to argue that the police only had power to seize my private property if they suspected on reasonable grounds that an offence had been committed, and that the first officer had no grounds upon which I could be under suspicion at all (I am not sure of the strength of that argument as I am a civil litigation solicitor not a criminal litigation one), when, thankfully, the second officer knew a bit about airguns and was having none of it.

 

He could see that it was a single stroke pneumatic and that I was not "the type" to cook it up.

 

So, in short, whether you get tested is dependent upon the discretion and commonsense of the officer concerned. Which some officers possess more of than others (as in all walks of life).

[roblade]

thought i rembered that gem of "capable of exceeding .....<yadda...yadda..yadda>" but couldnt be sure so didnt quote it.

 

sad that the law can be inturpreted any way "the law" sees fit.

 

as regards to what pellets are used when testing a rifles power "the law" can use whatever pellets they (or the gun smith) choose, using the argument "but i dont use those" just wont work.

 

on a rather different note have spent a good while trying to find any reference to air rifles being over the legal limit and any prosecution for this, couldnt find anything in searching with google. If any one can find anything post it up please

 

but i did find this (which is a little on the interesting side) sounds very familiar (bar the tresspassing part)

 

"In R v Rainbird [1989] Crim L R 505 R acting as school caretaker fired an airgun at dustbins where trespassing boys were playing, hitting one of the boys with a pellet. He was charged with malicious wounding and in his defence said that he foresaw no risk to injury. In directing the jury the Judge said R should have foreseen physical harm: and summed up the prosecution case as "an act committed by R which an ordinary person would realise was likely to have that consequence." R was convicted.

 

 

Held, allowing the Appeal and quashing the conviction, the judge's reference to an objective test of foreseeability constituted a misdirection. The Court of Appeal said the Judge had probably been misled by Caldwell although the House of Lords in that case did not overrule Cunningham"

(as found here.....here)

 

 

ROB

[Yo!popgun]

Good morning, you should be aware that there is a guy who lives in Solihull who will sell you springs and shims for Supertens that will, in effect, take the rifle over the legal limit...he does not ask for you FAC.

 

JD something, I will try to find out and let you know.

 

I, too have had the Police called on me by some anti/idiot who could not abide me and a friend shooting legal quarry on land assigned to us.

 

The copper was not very impressed with the anti who had called as they said we were shooting trains!

 

Upshot was he said to keep at it and don't worry, they will either stop or be cautioned for wasting Police time.

 

Mike.

[roblade]

Hi mate, not too sure how shims and springs would work in a regulated rifle, kinda think it defeats the object of spending exra to have an efficient rifle and then going and spoiling it by altering things he dosnt know about. yes it may be a OTT rifle but what does it shoot like? The ONLY way you can make a reulated air rifle shoot well, above its factory set power level is by taking it into a shop and asking for FAC upgrad to it and having it put on ticket (usually cost about £50 for the proofing alone and i think there is a variaion fee as well)

 

just rember a OTT air rifle aint big and it aint clever! then again i dont know you might like porridge LOL

 

ROB

[dr_nick]

Out of interest, what is involved in upgrading an air weapon to FAC and is it better /cheaper just to buy a new full power version? Finally how much does it cost to add extra guns to your ticket?