Where have all the pigeons gone?

[Topgunners]

Did anyboby read this month's article in the Sporting Shooter magazine? by John Hatch.

 

He is convinced that the PROFESSIONAL SHOOTERS AND GUIDES are spoiling our sport by taking out clients to shoot large bags in the summer. It's been going on for the last 5 years. Last summer as the example; when all over the country large flocks of pigeons battered the Barley & Rape throughout June July August.

 

When this spring arrived the pigeons just weren't around in large numbers

as the MOST of us have experienced and it's not through lack of food. He opened the crops on many birds to find that they preferred IVY BERRIES to the Rape.

 

And now we are into May they will go for the BEECH & ASH buds and you will STRUGGLE to decoy them as they prefer the sweet taste of these Buds.

 

What are your "EXPERT" opinions on this Boys? (oops and Girls). Ha ! HA!

Edited May 14, 2005 by Topgunners

[HAMMY]

Top G,

I didn't see the topic, but was begginning to wonder. A couple of topics on here of late have me concluding the whole of the UK is having a bad year ,withlow numbers. Certainly on my visit back home last week all the Pigeon boys round my area are having a very quiet spring and no Pros operate in our area. I would be interested to hear Mark Robsons who I know is a pro, and some of the other pros that visit this forum's comments. I'm not an expert but I would think there may be a natural answer, not related to overshooting.

 

 

Hammy

[M ROBSON]

HAMMY,

 

We had a slightly below par start to the year up here in Fife but still managed some good bags. The pigeons were on the rape in very large numbers but my dad wanted a break during February so only took a handful of bookings, march was back to normal and produced some good sport on Rape. The birds were hitting rape still well into April even with drills on the ground but towards the end of the month the best of the shooting was on drilled barley and beans. We had a couple of bad patches, mainly down to bad weather where the birds were reluctant to fly far from the roosts but all in all it was a good spring. The drillings went in over a longer time period this year, mid March until now, this was due to the rain. We still have pigeons on drilled barley that was put in this week!

We have broken our record daily solo bag each year in a row for the last 5 years, so make up your own mind as to weather the birds are dissapearing.

 

Here was the last 100+ bag at the end of April.

 

Cheers,

Mark.

[Deako]

I think the time has come for a voluntary closed season on pigeons perhaps for two months during the summer. Every day, I speak to people from all over the country and they all say the same thing: numbers ARE down.

 

Some professional outfits around the Oxfordshire area are claiming to shoot up to 25,000 birds a year. Sorry, but thats just not sustainable and if we don't get a grip of things ourselves, I'm certain legislation will follow within three years.

 

I know that Roland from Pinewood Sporting also shares this view as do many other people I speak to on the phone and at game fairs. BASC have been lobbied on the subject, particularly by the Scottish lads who are worried about the general lack of bird numbers.

 

Its already the norm all over the rest of Europe and if we all stick our heads in the sand it'll happen to us for certain.

 

:unsure:

[greeneddie]

Given the recent debate caused by the ridiculous debarcle regarding the changed wording of the general licence it seams increasingly that we are going to have to be able to satisfy anyone who questions us that our days sport out shotting the grey hordes is for the direct benefit of protecting crops over which the birds are being shot.

 

How do we therefore justify to anyone when harvest time comes and the pigeons are flighting in to feed on harvest spoil that would otherwise rot in the ground that we are complying with the terms of the general licence?

 

As far as I'm concerned wood pigeon are on the general licence as in the large numbers that they exist they are a major agricultural pest and therefore it is for the better good of our country's farming industry that all who wish to do so get out there and shoot as many as they can regardless of the precise circumstances that this occurs. Birds decoyed over grass feeding on clover may not be causing any great damage that day but those same birds will be feeding on someone's crops at somepoint. And besides they are a tasty source of free range food avaiable in abundance at the cost of a few carts and a good days sport. But unfortunately what I think doesn't make it law:(

 

In this month's Sporting Gun magazine John Swift (Chief Exec. of the BASC) on page 77 states "It is crucially important to understand that General Licences cannot be fig leaves to kill or take the named species year round in whatever circustance." So it seams he's clear that you have to be shooting in circumstances that directly protect a particular crop.

 

And then on page 138 of the same magazine Robin Scott reports a recent incident where a friend of his was nicked by RSPCA and Police and warned that he was breaking the law as he was shooting over a crop of unharvested barley and so the pigeons were not doing any harm.

 

Who says shooting is safe in our tree hugging townie society!

[The_Craws]

The argument is that the birds on the general licence are a threat to crops because they have the inherent capacity to destroy them.

 

The General licence has been clarified that you have to be satisfied that other non-lethal methods of control are ineffective or un reasonably practicable. Providing you are complying with the licence you dont have to satisfy anyone else as long as you are satisfied yourself.

 

Fish stocks are in jeapordy and this was through unsustainable over fishing. We have to learn from other people's mistakes so I think either we stop taking huge bags or we have a closed season for "vermin" as well, a compulsory one will no doubt come along.

 

The whole vermin control issue complicates matters.

Edited May 14, 2005 by The_Craws

[M ROBSON]

In Scotland we have a SEERAD licence not DEFRA (the English equivelant).

 

Our licence was renewed in November with non of the problems seen with the DEFRA version.

[The_Craws]

doh, damned magazines. :unsure:

 

I was looking on the net a while back for a general licence for scotland and couldnt find any information on it at all. So I just assumed it would be along the lines of the one for England.

Edited May 14, 2005 by The_Craws

[aubs]

He is convinced that the PROFESSIONAL SHOOTERS AND GUIDES are spoiling our sport by taking out clients to shoot large bags in the summer. It's been going on for the last 5 years. Last summer as the example; when all over the country large flocks of pigeons battered the Barley & Rape throughout June July August.

 

There is also an advert in the sporting gun saying that "our clients shoot in excess of 11,000 pigeons each year with us.

A hell of a lot just by one company, it's not surprsing the numbers are down.

 

OR ARE THEY?:unsure:?

 

There is also an article by Peter Theobald in which he comments about the big acorn year of 1995 when the pigeons didn't touch the rape all winter.People called for a closed season and then in late spring the pigeons appeared in larger numbers than before.

 

All I can say is I've shot ****** all this year along with a lot of other people so surely this is good for the pigeon population.

[lurcherboy]

Saturday morning 7-30 to 11-30. Not one bloody pigeon on the clover yet they have been on it for the last ten days!

 

 

LB :unsure:

[Catamong]

I assumed that the low numbers of Pigeons in our area (Herts/South Beds), was due to the fact that we had a very dry autumn in '04, the rape that was drilled failed to grow, acorns and beechmast crop was no better than average, and all of the birds ******** off to somewhere where there was more food available.

 

I also assumed that they would return last Winter, with a good acorn / beechmast / rape crop locally, but they didn't, and i'm surprised to hear that others are not shooting many up North, where I assumed they'd all gone.

 

So, whats happening..:unsure: - I do know that people like Jim Albone and the other "Pro's" shoot some massive bags over laid barley and swathed rape, when every bird shot is a parent bird feeding youngsters back on the nest, so you are killing probably three or four birds with every adult shot.

 

I personally don't shoot Pigeons in the Summer any more, because I shoot a lot of Clays, and can't bear to shoot birds that can't be recovered from standing crops, although I believe it's up to the individual to decide on the circumstances - the "Pro's" will argue that they need to be shot 24/7 because they are a pest, and "if we don't invite our paying guests over from France to shoot them somebody else will"...!!!

 

I suppose the attitude of "catch 'em while you can" is very similar to the argument put forward by trawler crews in the North Sea during the 60's and 70's, in that there was an "inexhaustable" supply of cod in that vast pond, and that no amount of fishing could threaten the stock levels...they were proved wrong, as anybody who's beach fished on the East Coast can confirm.

 

Or perhaps the reduction in numbers is due to all of the new fangled gadgets that we're all using, (Rotary's / Peckers / Bobbers / Floaters) and we're all shooting bigger bags... - Any muppet who normally couldn't hit a cows **** with a shovel is now capable of bringing 'em close and nailing a few..!!

 

What do others think..?:lol:??

[Cranfield]

I don't think Mark Robson up in Fife, is affecting the pigeon population in Kent.

 

My belief is that the pigeons are there, but they are spoilt for choice of feeding.

Rape, apparently is not very high on their list of favoured foods and they only eat it when nothing else is available.

In the past with hard Winters, nothing else was available.

The birds then came into Spring looking to build up their body weight and condition prior to breeding, which means they fed aggressively (normally on drillings).

With all the acorns, berries etc around during our recent mild Winters, they don't have to do this, as they maintain condition all year.

 

This very adaptable bird has adapted once again.

 

If any Professional Pigeon Guides want a Close Season, they can always shut down their businesses for a couple of months and if any Suppliers of Pigeon Shooting Equipment want a Close Season, they can refuse to supply any equipment for those specific months, but neither Group has the right to interfere with our authority to shoot pigeons 12 months of the year.

 

 

We know the BASC will cave in to any suggestions from the Labour Government, to curtail the use of sporting weapons, why should we make it easier for them ?

[Deako]

Cranfield,

 

The 'interfering' has already begun. As stated, its my personal opinion that we need to reduce the number of birds being shot.

 

If we, as shooters, don't do it, you can rest assured that it will be done for us in the very near future.

[Fisherman Mike]

I personally dont think that Pigeon numbers are depleated nationally. Certainly in this area numbers dont appear to be reduced but there is no doubt that they no longer form large flocks, and I mean 500 plus birds as they did in the past. The reasons for this are two fold.

 

1. Climate changes.. The winters now are much milder than 40 years ago.

 

2. Food source.. Your average farmer now provides copious amounts of food stuffs for the woodie. Add this to natures larder and you have a year round supply of feed. No pigeon in his right mind is going to eat cabbage, cabbage, cabbage when he can have cake. !

 

Also the Common wood pigeon has become a very cosmopolitan bird in the last 30 or 40 years and is as equally at home perched on the top of a sodium lamp stem by the side of the dual carriageway as he is on the bough of an ancient oak in deepest woodland.

 

I also think that if areas such as the arable flat lands of the East Midlands, Oxfordshire and SouthEast can support shooting in large numbers then so be it to be honest 25,000 and 11,000 wood pigeons shot each year by organised shoots is peanuts and wouldnt register on the tally killed by shooters nationally.

 

I dont agree with it as such but if thats your chosen way to make a living then so be it.

 

IF there is to be a decline in Pigeon numbers it wont be caused by those that shoot them but more over some form of pestilence or agricultural intervention.

 

Dont think that because you cant see them they are not there, case in point being recently when I was walking the dogs through a deeply wooded valley locally. Four Giant USAF helicopters soared down the outstretched valley infront of me little more than 300 feet off the ground as they passed pigeons took to the air from the trees from everywhere in a two 1 or two mile stretch easily 500 plus birds.

 

FM.

[Cranfield]

The 'interfering' has already begun. As stated, its my personal opinion that we need to reduce the number of birds being shot.

 

If we, as shooters, don't do it, you can rest assured that it will be done for us in the very near future.

 

Deako, if you don't want to shoot pigeons for two months in the Summer....................then don't.

As you feel strongly about this, I assume you will be closing ############## for this same period. :unsure:

 

If its "unfair" to shoot wood pigeons when they are breeding, what about rabbits ?

Is that next ?

Or is it night shooting, both "unfair", potentially dangerous and anti social ?

What else do you want to give away, before it is done for us ?

[Deako]

Cranners,

 

Once again you have taken things out of context.

 

Of course I'm not going to close Decoying UK for two months, as I'm sure Pinewood and Will are not going to either...that would be a rather stupid business decision and I don't do stupid.

 

However, when the government stop ALL of us from shooting for eight months of the year, nobody will sell any equipment, and nobody will shoot any pigeons.

 

I don't have a hidden agenda, just a love for the sport.

 

:unsure:

[Fisherman Mike]

The only way that the pigeon will be removed from the general list is if like the House Sparrow and the Starling its numbers show dramatic decline .

 

I cant see this happening. However if we wish to preserve our Sport, and that is precisely what it is, we must be very sensible in our approach to the year round shooting of Pigeons and cease shooting when the birds seasonally pose no problem to the Farmer.

 

Is a Pigeon a real pest to rape plants given the volume of rape grown ?

 

Is he a pest to Drillings ?

 

Is he a pest to Stubble. ?

 

The answer to all of these is emphatically NO not with modern Drilling methods.

 

The birds would mainly be considered pests on consumer brassicas and legumes like peas or beans where they do serious damage to sprouting plants.

 

It is my honest and reasoned opinion that we should try and educate ourselves that quality rather than quantity is the prerequisite when we go out shooting pigeons and we should be happy with just a few rather than a few hundred. Im not saying that a 100 bird bag is not unneccessary but that we all have too high an expectation when we go out with the gun and that is not the correct attitude.

 

Deako I can see where you are coming from and have some sympathy as you are obviously in between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea but I think its rather hypocritical of you to sell the equipment to effectively lull the birds to their death and then start bleating about control of numbers being shot.

 

FM.

[Cranfield]

I haven't taken anything out of context.

Its my personal opinion that woodpigeon numbers have not dropped, but their feeding habits have changed.

On this we will agree to disagree.

 

My concern is that we are going to have enough problems with retaining the status quo in many areas of our sporting shooting, without giving up areas voluntarily.

 

Imposing a Close Season for pigeon shooting, is probably the last thing on the Governments mind.

I believe there are many other ways they will diminish our sports first.

 

Why would the Government seek to impose a close season on an agricultural pest ?

 

Because the "pest" has become an endangered specie (is that a bad thing for a pest) ?

 

Because vested interests want the pest classified as "Game" ?

 

Because its not really a pest and should be put on the protected specie list ?

 

I think the policy of appeasement, is a dangerous one to play.

[M ROBSON]

deako,

 

However, when the government stop ALL of us from shooting for eight months of the year

 

 

 

Cranfield sums it up nicely,

 

Why would the Government seek to impose a close season on an agricultural pest ?

Because the "pest" has become an endangered specie (is that a bad thing for a pest) ?

 

 

 

 

Next thing the'll be stopping us shooting Rabbits during the summer months! :unsure:

Edited May 14, 2005 by M ROBSON

[Deako]

FM,

 

Essentially you have said pretty much exactly what I was trying to say. However, with tens of thousands of pounds invested in stock, I'm afraid shutting up shop is not an option...if we don't sell it others will.

 

My point (in a nutshell) is that IF we don't exercise self control very soon, our personal choice WILL be taken from us.

 

And yes, in the past I've shot many bags well in excess of 100 birds, and helped many clients to shoot even more.

 

I'm certainly not 'bleating' about bag numbers, maybe I've just mellowed a little with age. :unsure:

 

Anyway, I'll try not to post further on the subject.

 

Deako.

[Deako]

Robbo,

 

I make a good part of my living from shooting, just like your dad and many others.

 

Thats exactly why I don't want to see an ENFORCED ban by the government!

[M ROBSON]

Deako,

 

We choose not to take bookings throughout the summer (May-July) although we still protect the veg plants when needed.

 

I believe the DEFRA carry on that happened earlier this spring was trying to highlight the fact that crop protection is ok, IF it is direct crop protection.

Be it veg plants, spring Rape, blown wheat/Barley etc. If the birds are doing damage then go ahead and shoot them.

 

I can't see a close season being introduced simply because too much damage is done by the woodpigeon during the summer months, I've seen plenty of it!!!!!!

 

the pigeons are still there, all 10 million of them!

They just move around like a wild bird will. We've had 100+ bags on farms in years gone by and not shot another bird on those farm again. On the other hand we get birds appearing on farms that rarely get bother until the crop suits the birds.

 

Maybe things are different in England but up here in the last 10 years i can count on one hand the number of times I've been out and seen another pigeon shooter out in the same area!

We even get farmers phoning us up asking if we would be interested in shooting their pigeons as they've heard about us from farming friends who's land we already shoot!!!!

 

Guides get the blame no matter what they do.

 

I remember two years ago when I was hearing about the goose guide getting all the blame for taking up all the quality goose ground in Scotland.

I was shooting the Tay all week with a friend of mine from Kent who I've shot with since I was 15. There was about 2000 geese heading out each morning to the same grass fields about 2 miles in from the shore. By the end of the week we went and asked the farmer if it was possible to have a go for them, his responce was "I didn't know people still shot geese!" and let us on without a problem!!! The geese still hit those field every years since. Next to one of the most heavily shot goose estuarys in the country. :unsure:

 

Mark.

[HAMMY]

That was quite an interesting debate, and from all these comments I reckon I can conclude that it is just the birds habit's and habitat that has changed.

 

FM,

I think you are right about the Doo's becoming more Cosmopolitan, I come down to your neck of the woods for the Chelt Fest every yearand always think I could make a good bag in Pittesville park!!!! :unsure:

 

 

Hammy

[Fisherman Mike]

That was quite an interesting debate, and from all these comments I reckon I can conclude that it is just the birds habit's and habitat that has changed.

 

FM,

I think you are right about the Doo's becoming more Cosmopolitan, I come down to your neck of the woods for the Chelt Fest every yearand always think I could make a good bag in Pittesville park!!!! :unsure:

 

 

Hammy

I know what you mean they are everywhere in Pitville and the surrounding areas.

 

Perhaps we could meet up next year.. I normally go to the festival

 

Cheers.

 

FM.

[lazza]

Ok here's my two penny's worth.

 

I have permission to shoot in two seperate area's. One is on a few farms, which are local to where I live, and the other is a shooting estate about 30 miles away from me.

 

The farms that I shoot grow a large acreage of peas, and the pigeon population is massive. Unfortunately due to commitments on the estate, I have very little time to shoot the ground properly. I believe that there are another four or five people who shoot the same farms, and to be honest there needs to be!

 

I've shot the land many times, and 100 pigeons in three to four hours is commonplace.Two years ago I shot well over 2000 pigeons from July to September, and I know the other fella's were shooting good bags also.

 

Last year I expected to see the number of pigeon on the land to be less, and was very suprised to see no difference at all. Infact the lads who shoot there are still killing the same amount of pigeon, and the farmer is still losing acres of peas and rape.

 

The estate on the other hand, has'nt really got a large pigeon problem. However, one of the farmers there has his spring rape just coming up,and dispite using bangers and other deterrents twenty or thirty pigeons are taking the first two leaves and the top out of the plant, which means it will never grow.

 

I'd assume that there's an idea of which months would be banned for shooting. I for one can't think of a good month not to shoot pigeon. There is always a crop being hit somewhere, and from what I've seen, due to our climate change, there is only a couple of months when pigeons are'nt breeding. A dead pigeon won't eat any more crop!

 

If people are thinking about a ban, then there should be an accurate count of the numbers. How this is going to be done is beyond me. I can look at a field at any time and not see any pigeons, but if you walk or drive around the headlands pigeons appear out of no where from the trees. Are the numbers going to be monitored over a few years to account for crop rotation and changes inthe weather?

 

Personaly if I shoot over a hundred pigeons, I find it hard work, and the only pleasure from it comes from knowing that there's a hundered less to chase around. To me it's not a numbers game just crop protection, which is why the licence is there.

 

I can't make my mind up whether a voluntary ban is better than an enforced ban.

If I volunteer to not shoot, and there are pigeons eating crops I am not using the licence. Therefore at sometime someone will say there is no need for it, and it will be amended.

An enforced ban will just pave the way for more restrictions etc etc.

 

If the guides are shooting large numbers throughout the year then there must be large amounts of pigeon, if those numbers start dropping off, so will their business.

 

Well for what it's worth thats my opinon. If you don't feel comfortable shooting pigeons at certain times of the year then don't do it. If like me you kill what you can, when you can, your using the licence to it's full extent.

 

You do what you think is right, only time will tell!