Ozzy Fudd Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 (edited) just wondering if theres been any official clairification on the issue of taking non licence holders out shooting with you, ie, the bit in the wording about "the occupier of the land" being able to take someone out - i know this has been a sticking point here and caused many arguments (and im not looking to start another one), so has anyone heard anything? and also whats the verdict of shooting organisations (basc, etc) on it? :yp: cheers edit - i havnt forgot about asking your local feo, was just wondering Edited March 18, 2009 by babbyc1000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaniel Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 As i understand it i can take a non SGL holder clay shooting with me..i.e he can use my gun But he can not use my gun if i went on Farm land Pigeon shooting, Thinks thats correct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cubix Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 The occupier is the person with the lawful authority to shoot - simple as that. If you have permission then that's you. But if you dont own the land, you need to make sure you can extend that permission to others also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaniel Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 I always thought the occupier was the land owne not the peson with Auth to shoot on the land..... You learn something every day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 The following apply - Eng Wales ,Scotland A person without a valid SGC can be in possession of a shotgun if: 1 It has been borrowed from the occupier of private premises and used on those premises in the occupiers presence. 2. It is used at a time and place approved by the local Chief Officer of police for shooting artificial targets. 3. A visitors shotgun permit is held 4. It is used by the holder of a N Ireland FAC The issue under (1) is who is the occupier? The farming tenant, yes, the owner of the land yes, the owner of the shooting rights, possibly, the holder of a shooting lease...maybe maybe not. Best bet is always to confirm with your FLO who they say are classed as 'the occupier' David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted March 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 (edited) The following apply - Eng Wales ,Scotland A person without a valid SGC can be in possession of a shotgun if: 1 It has been borrowed from the occupier of private premises and used on those premises in the occupiers presence. 2. It is used at a time and place approved by the local Chief Officer of police for shooting artificial targets. 3. A visitors shotgun permit is held 4. It is used by the holder of a N Ireland FAC The issue under (1) is who is the occupier? The farming tenant, yes, the owner of the land yes, the owner of the shooting rights, possibly, the holder of a shooting lease...maybe maybe not. Best bet is always to confirm with your FLO who they say are classed as 'the occupier' David cheers david, but has there been any official clarification on it yet? just wondering, been trying to get my feo, no joy so far Edited March 18, 2009 by babbyc1000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 nope no clarification and that is the interesting bit it means no one has been in court over the issue. Of course you don't want to be a test case but I'd actually question whether there is any point asking your FEO. He can only give you his opinion not an actual answer, were you to be arrested over the issue then it would be on the opinion of the arresting officer and up to the CPS whether it went to court. Its yet another of our firearms laws thats a complete balls up bit like the distance from the road issue, what it indicates is though that if you do lend a gun the probability of having any trouble is miniscule and then a bit of claiming you thought you were classed as the owners agent while undertaking his pest control should suffice. Personally i do take non licence holders out one of whom is the landowner in my case so that no doubt muddies it even further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 I would not be too confident in claiming that ' I thought I was the owners agent' would be enough to keep me out of trouble to be honest. I am afraid that ignorance is no defence. Different licensing authorities have slightly different takes on the term 'occupier' in the context of the Firearms Act hence it is worth checking with them, but I can tell you that in almost all cases the licensing departments interpretation will be far stricter that the civil law interpretation. It is most likely the licensing dept will put the emphasis on the owner of land and the owner of the shooting rights being the occupier. Of course a bit of land can have more than one occupier. Chance of getting caught may be small, but obviously does not warrant any of us breaking the law, and I am sure you did not mean to imply this. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted March 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 nope no clarification and that is the interesting bit it means no one has been in court over the issue. Of course you don't want to be a test case but I'd actually question whether there is any point asking your FEO. He can only give you his opinion not an actual answer, were you to be arrested over the issue then it would be on the opinion of the arresting officer and up to the CPS whether it went to court. Its yet another of our firearms laws thats a complete balls up bit like the distance from the road issue, what it indicates is though that if you do lend a gun the probability of having any trouble is miniscule and then a bit of claiming you thought you were classed as the owners agent while undertaking his pest control should suffice. Personally i do take non licence holders out one of whom is the landowner in my case so that no doubt muddies it even further. i take non licence holders out as well, but as you said its one of those grey area's tbh ive had a bit of trouble with a woman who lives beside one of my permissions, she threatened to ring the police on us yesterday and although we were in the right (we have full permission to be there, i even called at the farmers house before we went out to let him know we where there, i have full insurance and wasnt doing anything daft) she still kept on at us. so i started wondering what would happen in that case if the cops did arrive out and my mate had one of my guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 'so i started wondering what would happen in that case if the cops did arrive out and my mate had one of my guns' I honestly think you would be in a world of ****. I think the laws are different over here than England, Scotland or Wales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 Indeed you would i think there are. No exemptions in NI- you must have an FAC to be in possession as far as i know - i will double check with the BASC office in NI though David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted March 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 (edited) a few years ago when i had my own land the feo that covered my area said it wasnt a problem , but who knows. luckily its a rarity (twice since then, both landowners whos land i was on, i never realised so many farmers dont have guns themselves ) thanks david, i rang them this morning and got no answer so left a message for them to ring me Edited March 18, 2009 by babbyc1000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 FEO's are civilians though David and not Lawyers or police officers, you can get an answer from them which is their interpretation of the law. Individual police officers could have a different interpretation and it won't matter a jot if you say your FEO said differently, especially if the person you spoke to etc has left their job which is all too common. In practice I'd imagine the only time you met an officer who had much of an idea of the law would be after an accident involving a firearm, It would be nice to get a clarification of the law as at the moment its decidely vague but I'm starting to think its vague to give everybody leeway. After all take the other beauty of being a certain distance from a road as long as you don't cause nuisance to a road user, thats a beauty of a law, first you have to proove the distance then you have to proove that you caused a nuisance. It seems fairly ridiculous to write it in that way but it means you can stand on the edge of a rural road and shoot if you like whereas if you had to be a certain distance away then it would be clear simple and you would know what you could do. I'm not having a go at you David but quoting the word of the law is just doing what everyone else seems to do on this topic and thats cover their backs without giving a yes you can or no you can't which is all people want. To say it varies area to area also is rubbish as its the same law for the country and its one that is clear as mud. personally i'm happy being the landowners agent but as you say ignorance isn't a defence but you then end up in court arguing technicalities, whats the BASC view on it if one of your members got pulled up on it would you be willing to make a case of it which lets face it is needed to clarify the law Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 Yes David I would also like to know, would BASC defend someone in this position ? I started going out with some local shooters before I had my SGC and FAC! Without they're help I doubt Id have my SGC & FAC today! Thoroughly enjoyed a day pigeon shooting Without taking people out shooting many people are missing out on a great opportunity and alot of fun! We NEED to introduce more people to the sport not block them off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 You are spot on that FEO’s are not lawyers but they may know what the force policy is on ‘Occupiers’ in the context of the Firearms Act. I can assure you that different constabularies have slightly different interrogations as to who is and who is not an Occupier, so check with them. The law (Highways Act) says you cannot shoot within 50 feet of the centre of a highway if you cause another user injury, interruption or endangerment. You do not have to prove you have caused a problem, the onus is on the third party top prove you have. If you are more than 50 feet away then you cannot fall foul of this bit of the highways Act. If a BASC member wants help and support from BASC of course they will get it. As for taking a case to court, yes we do and yes we will based on the guidance of our legal advisors. We will not spend member’s money on cases that are doomed to fail of course! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted March 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 FEO's are civilians though David and not Lawyers or police officers, you can get an answer from them which is their interpretation of the law. Individual police officers could have a different interpretation and it won't matter a jot if you say your FEO said differently, especially if the person you spoke to etc has left their job which is all too common. not in northern ireland, feo's are all serving police officers (well the ones ive run into are anyway), but youre right, the one who told me it was ok to take someone out on my land left the post 6 months or so later itd be great to get some clarification, though i dont want to go to court to do so! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 (edited) well avoided in terms of actually commiting yourself to a yes or no. Were you to get pulled on the occupiers issue I'm not quite sure what you would be charged with but assuming it went to court you could then drag it to the high court presumably which just looks at the law and doesn't have different interpretations. I find it hard to believe that I could break the law in Bedfordshire and not in Hertfordshire for example when the law is the same in both. Yes they may have different interpretations but ultimately I can't see how this would stack up in court. i know that most people I've ever shot with have been lent guns before they started and very few by the landowner. In your opinion if someone here with vermin shooting rights was pulled on it would you support them or would it be doomed to failure, only a yes or no is needed to this bit Edited March 18, 2009 by al4x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 You should know as well as anyone that in almost allcases it is not possible to give a yes or no answer, to a question that is so open to scenario variations! Yes the law is the law- and unless the person lending the gun is the occupier of that land than both of you are committing an offence under Section 2 (1) the Firearms Act (in Eng Scot, Wales) The owner of the land is an occupier, the farming tenant is an occupier, a shooting tenant with a lease or other written agreement is an occupier. Outside of this…….? This has not been tested in Court, but if it did go to Court, the onus would be on the prosecution to prove the person was NOT the occupier. The defence, quite simply, would be to show some formal evidence of occupation. Good luck funding your appeal to the High Court! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 (edited) ah so you wouldn't support me being a BASC member thats all I needed to know Edited March 18, 2009 by al4x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 I certainly did not say that and you know it - for what ever reason you are just spoiling for a fight! I have clealry said that BASC will help members, and we do. I have clearly said that BASC will take cases to court and we have. If , however, you have clearly broken the law and could not show evidence of occupation what could we do? Nothing! If you appealed to the High Court and still had no evidence of occupation, then what? The law is the law, and it is down to you as a shotgun certificate holder to make sure you obay the law. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted March 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 (edited) well good news is ni is no different from the mainland,if you look here, but its still the same problem - defining "the occupier" edit - should say at schedule 1 and a bit further down, the wording is Shotguns 11. - (1) A person may, without holding a firearm certificate, borrow a shotgun from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the occupier's presence. so im assuming that as i hold (or rent) shooting rights on the land, and the farmer technically employs me (therefore being his agent) in a pest and vermin control role, then as long as im present anyone can use my shotgun without breaking the law. Edited March 18, 2009 by babbyc1000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 im in avon and somerset, i phoned up the police HQ, and they said if you dont own the land then you can not let any body use your gun, with out a licence.and that is what my flo told me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magman Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 well good news is ni is no different from the mainland,if you look here, but its still the same problem - defining "the occupier" edit - should say at schedule 1 and a bit further down, the wording is Shotguns 11. - (1) A person may, without holding a firearm certificate, borrow a shotgun from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the occupier's presence. so im assuming that as i hold (or rent) shooting rights on the land, and the farmer technically employs me (therefore being his agent) in a pest and vermin control role, then as long as im present anyone can use my shotgun without breaking the law. your still not the occupier of the land ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted March 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 (edited) so if someone rents the land to farm are they not the occupier? and if i rent the land for shooting am i not the occupier? thats my reading of it anyway anyway i know we could argue over this all night (and probably will), tbh i only wanted to see if there had been any official clarification on it from the govt Edited March 18, 2009 by babbyc1000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magman Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 so if someone rents the land to farm are they not the occupier? and if i rent the land for shooting am i not the occupier? thats my reading of it anyway If you rent it how can you be the occupier owner ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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