Evilv

I didn't advocate creating a nuisance. Nobody has the right to do that in any case. I did however advocate not inviting someone to deny you the right to pursue a lawful activity in a reasonable manner by as good as asking their permission. Being reasonable doesn't require you to ask the permission of the neighbours before you do something you are entitled to do and can accomplish without inconvenience or nuisance to them. Of course any claim of nuisance would be subject to the test of reasonableness. It would certainly be reasonable to object to the carrying on of shooting for a period of twelve hours at a stretch in a suburban garden. It would also be incredibly tedious for the shooters and is therefore very unlikely to be going on so it isn't a great example. I expect that Andrew may envisage the odd half hour of shooting in his very large garden. For myself, I occasionally discharge ten or twenty .22 pellets from a springer air rifle into a brick cul-de-sac in a twenty metre garden.

I don't envisage any lack of tact at all. Nobody is advocating brandishing a gun in a careless or menacing manner, just a guy quietly enjoying his garden in a lawful fashion without having to doff his cap at the locals or invite them to object to his safe, quiet and proper enjoyment of his property. Soon we will be asking if its ok to smoke in our gardens - not that I smoke, or approve of it, but my neighbour does and that's his business. It would be wise to use a soft backstop like a bin full of old newspapers and card board. Then there won't be a lot of racket. Carpet is also quiet. Andrew, the thread starter has a massive garden and can surely get on with his careful shooting in a way that his neighbours won't even know. Thinking about it, he might even be able to set up a hundred yard range and shoot out from inside his house - wouldn't that be a fine thing? Shooting from inside the house or from a shed is also a possibility as far as keeping the noise down is concerned, as long as you take precautions to avoid some poor family member coming into the wrong place while you are at it. NB - I wouldn't recommend shooting at all unless I had at least a six foot high fence of solid construction to screen both noise, and oversight. It might also be of great assistance in the unfortunate event of a ricochet which above all else he would need to think about and design ways to prevent from happening. My target area is twelve feet inside a three sided brick box whose lowest side is ten feet high Also - no shooting after beer. On the fifty foot thing and 'interruption'. I never shoot within fifty feet of a highway or a footpath, but I'm normally shooting high velocity .22 rimfire or a shotgun. I don't even like shooting in the same field as a footpath which goes along the banks of the River Tyne on one of my shoots. I always wait in that field if there is anybody within four hundred yards, until they are out of the way. However, in the context of the discussion here, Andrew has no need to worry at all. But take the example of a guy with a backyard and ten foot high brick walls. If there is a lane passing within twenty five feet of his firing position is he prevented from firing off his air pistol? Certainly not. No sane person could be distressed by it or interrupted, endangered or injured. As in all offenses, the individual's state of mind who claims he is a victim must be reasonable. Firing a shotgun in a backyard would not be a reasonable thing to do, even if the owner discharged it into a barrel of wet sand. That could easily and quite properly cause an interruption and a good degree of fright in any individual who was passing down the lane; an air pistol or air rifle could not. The clause we are debating here was really framed with proper firearms in mind - ones that make a lot of noise, like shot guns. If we keep pussyfooting around like some of us do with a lot of hand wringing and bowing and scraping, soon the game of darts will be called into question as an unpleasant, dangerous, war-like and wholly unnecessary pursuit that should be banned from any place the public has access to. The logic of British law on these matters since the nineteen thirties leads there, be sure of it.

Accupels. In a .22 you need consistency which means careful manufacture, and you need as flat a trajectory as you can manage and that means light weight. Accupels are bang on for both. My Webley Axsor can put the all into a ragged hole at forty yards and more if there is no wind and I'm not shaking with excitement.

The twitching and flapping is typical even if they have been completely knackered by a perfect shot. I am shooting a lot of rabbits at the moment and even when their heads are completely exploded by a 1640 fps expanding bullet like a stinger - and I mean no head left to speak off, they will still jump and kick, even somersaulting over and over. There are a lot of nerves in the spinal chord that cause this kind of disturbing performance.

Apart from gun clubs and ranges, at this time of year there are millions of rabbits causing havoc. Looking respectable and turning up with polite manners on a summer evening at a farm where there are rabbits can often end up with permission. I just got another 300 acres to exercise my CZ on the other night.

Absolutely right, and well said. The fifty foot rule only applies to causing danger, interruption, or injury. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON WHY YOU SHOULD ASK FOR OBJECTIONS OR PERMISSION. YOU ARE ENTITLED to do this. You don't need to ask their permission to have sex either, so why this? In my opinion it is a big mistake to imply that they can object or interfere in any way with your lawful pursuits. Clearly, you will take responsible precautions to avoid missiles straying over the boundary. I used to and still occasionally shoot an air rifle in my much smaller garden. I set up screens so that I could not inadvertently discharge a pellet in an unwanted direction, and I shoot into a place where there can be no ricochets or penetration outside my garden. Asking for permission or comment invites them to say no and it also implies that if they do object, you will reconsider your exercise of your right to enjoy your property in any lawful way you like.

Ok - I'm sure you'll get on fine and I hope you enjoy it. My TX certainly put some rabbits in the pot and I expect it is still doing so with its new owner. One thing - just make sure your hand never slips off the loading lever if you've pressed the button disabling the anti bear trap mechanism.. One red hot June day, my sweaty hand slipped and that lever came down like a man trap. It didn't hit me, but the shock wave running through the barrel did bend the silencer enough to make it clip the pellets until I straightened things out. I was glad it was the ordinary spring. I'd hate to have done that with a FAC spring in there. By the way, I pressed the button to stop a rabbit from hearing me. It was a second shot and the ratchety ratchety rat, was going to scare it away. I'd have been better off losing that shot than taking the risk I did.

The reason I was going for .177 and legal limit is the land I can shoot rabbit on is relatively small and as far as I know not passed for FAC, I have been thinking about applying for my FAC for a while but for the time being an air rifle at legal limit should be ample. I have read the usual .177 v .22 argument and as far as I can see .177 seems to get the nod generally. My AA S400 was in .22 and at legal limit, (just), and had ample power for rabbits at the ranges i'm happy with which was 25-30 yards max'......I don't profess to be a brilliant shot beyound that range purely down to lack of practice, but the TX is a good candidate for tuning I believe should I decide to go down that route. Thanks for the advice I had a TX200 HC and it was pretty good, but weight is an issue humping it around on a hot day. I shot a great many rabbits with it, but nothing like as many as I get with my Webley Axsor PCP. The difference in accuracy and ease of shooting is remarkable. It gives cloverleaf groups and ragged holes at 40 yards and knocks them dead in their tracks. I had a lot more success with the PCP mainly I suppose because the thing doesn't kick before the pellet is gone, so I can consistently hit them behind the ear. It doesn't kick at all of course. The thing about springers (which you probably already know, is that if you don't hold them exactly the same way every time, the POI is different. With air rifle power that can lead to wounded rabbits hopping away. You can learn this holding business, but why bother? If you haven't already got a TX, I'd suggest you think about a PCP. They aren't all expensive. I'm thinking of selling mine since I have a CZ 425, and am thinking of getting a 17 hmr Henry Lever Action.

Wish I could do stuff like that. Now I'm retired I thought I'd see if I could enrol on a night class or some thing like it to learn. There aren't any. Plenty do twaddle like Media Studies though, and other such like foolery.

That's a quid a hundred cheaper. I might get some when I've expended the 300 I bought this week. When the rain stops, I'll get out and fire some off. Thanks for the info.

It's all been said, but I completely agree - eley subs will deliver by far the best groups in my CZ too. I fired hundreds of them, about 800 without ever putting so much as a pull through down the barrel and they remained deadly accurate. If you want to blow the rabbits heads up at 70 yards, put a few CCI stingers down the barrel. They are nothing like as accurate as the Eley subs, but they don't half put them down and they shoot much flatter out to 75 yards, but if you want to hit a pea at 50 yards, it's the Eley sub every time.

How much are the Velocitors, drut?

I went into town to re-stock yesterday and they said they'd never had them there. I bought 300 stingers. Really expensive, but they certainly shoot flat and hard.

Actually, I found a black powder club across in the Pennines. It's probably about sixty miles from me though, so it's hardly a local club like the old one. That was only ten miles away and shot three times a week, so you could usually find a chance to go if you wanted. I reckon I probably got lead poisoning in those days and that accounts for my current loopy interests. I spent a lot of time stooping over a pot of molten lead in those days and pouring the silver fluid into my bullet moulds. The .58 caliber one took an ounce and a quarter of lead to make one bullet. Anyway, they seem to shoot all kinds of interesting guns over there, pistol ammo lever action rifles, as well as a variety of muzzle loading and cartridge black powder stuff.

I shot off all the silver cased 1500fps ones and got onto the slower brass cased ones. These seem to be about 1400 fps - still hard hitting but with a lower POI. These ones really group well. I shot two half inch groups at 60 yards. I could have covered them both with my thumb nail. Rabbits heads were completely blown apart - just ears hanging on shreds of skull, even on 75 yard young rabbits and I mean half grown types not tiddlers.

Really Bob, it's the people who cause this, and you are completely right, it is usually people thinking, 'I don't have a use for this and I don't understand why it should go on so it should be stopped.' Politicians only want to be re-elected to their plush jobs and good salaries. nothing other than the fame they get motivates them more than that. So if they detect a chance they can ingratiate themselves with all the urban masses, they grab it with both hands and pass laws. Take this knife carrying Jail presumption... What a load of ********. Admittedly, there are urban areas where thugs are terrorising people with knives, but why is it that I - a 57 year old male whose last speeding ticket was in 1973, should be automatically sent to jail on the unlikely circumstance that a policeman asks me what I have in my pocket and I produce my 2 inch lock knife? It's totally *****ng ridiculous. Of course it may get Gordon Brown some votes.

Nice looker. I'd like to get back into that if there was a local club. There used to be one in the Tyne Valley, but it vanished I think. I've looked for Black Powder links on the web, but the nearest one seems to be in Lincolnshire and that's way too far away. Actually, I liked the BP rifles best. The old club used to have trapdoor Springfields and Sharpes in a few of the sharpes formats from paper cartridges to .45/70. I had a three band enfield myself. I miss those days. It was a good friendly club. British politicians produce useless legislation like a sick dog produces diarrhoea. All it takes is for some loon to do something disgusting and they run around like headless chickens looking for something to ban. I'm waiting for the first murder to be carried out with a wooden spoon, then they can ban them too. It makes me sick that the laws of society are devised on the basis that anything that can be used by a lunatic to harm people has to be banned for all of us. Presumably, they think we are all lunatics really, but we just haven't noticed our madness yet and so must be kept from harm. Stupid ****ers

I'd get that range finder checked out EvilElvis - either that or the laws of physics need an overhaul mate. The ballistics you are describing are about the same as the .22 WMR which shoots at 2040fps. Download a copy of Point Blank and see what you ought to find with a subsonic round like the Remington. Get the software here if you want it: Point Blank Ballistics software Ballistics data on common rimfire ammo here: Common Rimfire loads REMINGTON, 38-gr. LR Subsonic HP (SUB22HP), 1050 MV, 93 ME, 0.125 BC Target Distance: 60 Scope Height: 1.500 Temperature: 70 Altitude: 500 Ballistic Data ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Range Elevation Velocity Energy ETA Drop Max Y 10mph Wind Deflect 0 yds -1.50 in 1050 fps 93 fpe 0.000 sec 0.00 in -1.50 in 0.00 in 25 yds 0.64 in 1006 fps 85 fpe 0.073 sec 1.01 in -0.34 in 0.28 in 50 yds 0.64 in 969 fps 79 fpe 0.149 sec 4.17 in 0.48 in 1.07 in 75 yds -1.69 in 936 fps 74 fpe 0.228 sec 9.65 in 1.92 in 2.40 in 100 yds -6.47 in 907 fps 69 fpe 0.309 sec 17.59 in 4.05 in 4.15 in The drop specified here isn't the holdover, but how much it would have dropped if the barrel was parallel to the ground. In practice, we site them in so that the barrel is pointing a bit upwards. If you sited it in at 60 yards, the holdover would need to be 1.75 at 75 yards and 6.5 inches at a hundred.

I think you can still shoot black powder pistols in England. I don't know where, but I think it is still legal. I used to have a colt 185? repro way back. It was a lot of fun and I surely wouldn't have liked to stand in front of it. I could group about five inches at 25 metres without any bother. We shot them at a hundred yards as well. It fired .45 round balls. I still have the bullet mould and powder flask. As I recall it was cheap to shoot as well.

What would they cost? Have you noticed how cheap the ammo is in the States? We are getting royally ripped off here. People are talking on US forums about getting a brick from walmart for $16. at that rate, we should be able to find 500 rounds for about a tenner.... LOL - fat chance of that. It used to cost that in about 1980.

Did they group oK Hot shot? On the evidence of a few I fired at a target, I had a group of about an inch at 50 yards. Not as good as the eley subs which could be just a ragged hole about a half inch wide on a good day, but OK for 75 yard rabbits anyhow.

The farmer at one of my places came out the other night and gave me about 80 Winchester Xpediters. He said he couldn't be doing with mixtures of high and low velocity ammo. Anyhow, I tried this stuff out and apart from leaving filthy powder residue all over, it seems to shoot very hard. The POI is only a touch lower then CC! stingers - something like a centimeter at 60 yards, and nothing I pointed it at is left alive. It gives similar knock down power to the Stingers. I looked around on the net and there isn't much info on this round except on Russian forums. The velocity seems to be around 1500fps, but there are other xpediters that are about 1400 fps. The two versions of the round have different bullet weights. I have them both in the stuff he gave me. One lot - the faster ones have silver cases and the slower ones have brass cases. I think he may have had them lying around for years. I quite like them, but don't know if they are on sale here any more.

Interesting link on .5mm "The 5mm Rimfire offered more energy down range than the .22 WMR or the later .17 HMR (217 ft. lbs. for the 5mm vs. 170 ft. lbs. for the .22 WMR and 136 ft. lbs. for the .17 HMR at 100 yards). Its smaller diameter bullet was superior in ballistic coefficient and sectional density to the 40 grain .22 WMR bullet and that, plus its increased velocity, gave it a flatter trajectory and about a 25 yard advantage in effective range over the .22 Mag. During its brief life the 5mm Magnum developed a reputation as an effective and deadly varmint cartridge."

It really bugs me that cci ammo and I expect the rest of the American stuff, is sold in the States for less than half what I am asked to pay at the local gunsmiths. I am solidly sick of this $=£ scenario when there are over two dollars to the pound. Someone - everyone is ripping off the British public royally. It seems to happen in all areas of high street commerce. I bet there is one big ammo wholesaler and that they operate a cartel with the outlets.

Well I never - that's a surprise - you can make jacketed bullets. A very interesting article. I reckon I got brain damage from breathing in lead fumes with all that casting of black powder bullets I did. I spent countless hours every week slurping lead into moulds.