Evilv

Sorry - exactly what in my bulleted summary do you wish to contradict? If any of the 'facts' I stated there are false, please point them out and I will, if you are correct, withdraw them and apologise. Please provide evidence though. I can support every one of my points with authentic facts and figures. I don't have a low opinion of agriculture, just the socialist system of subsidy that pays people for nothing. What else is 'set aside'? The farmers I know work hard and work long. They didn't invent farm subsidies. Left wing, socialist governments did. I have run businesses of my own. Some were successful, and some were not. When they failed, they failed. I don't remember the government rushing up with a hand out when I couldn't keep up with the competition.

I suspect that it is a matter of an individual who works for BASC rather ill-advisedly using their name to curry support for something he has a personal interest in. It is just a guess, but I suspect that TomBASC has connections in farming. If anybody working for me used my company name like that, he'd be out on his ear and he'd deserve it what's more. BASC has submitted papers to the government consultation process about how badgers ought to be dealt with by those culling them if a cull were brought into force. That is all. They do not advocate the cull as far as I can see. That is my personal opinion only. I do not speak for BASC. You can google and see for yourself if the organisation advocates a cull or not. Call me 'old fashioned', but I would regard it as gross misconduct for an employee of an organisation to seek to associate that organisation with controversial policies which are not its own.

Your diversion from arguments into what amounts to personal abuse is odd to say the least. It also indicates a lack of dispassionate thought about the issue. Farmers, unlike just about any other industry in this country receive large amounts of subsidy from the public purse That is a fact, if you don't want it known, you're out of luck. I know a lot of farmers and many are my friends. It was them that told me that the only people who did well out of FMD were the people whose cattle and sheep were culled. It is noteable that all the tourism businesses affected by FMD and the non-infected farms received not a penny. Odd that, isn't it? Another fact you won't like Digger, old chap, is that all that tourism business is a hell of a lt more important to the countryside economy that the feather bedded farming industry is - by far. It makes far more money. Unlike any other industry in the civilised world, farm subsidy means that a business with defective stock or product has it bought by the state for market value. You accuse me of being a Guardian reader - I'm a Conservative in fact. Conservatives are against public support of private business. So am I. If my farmer friends make a profit and prosper in their business it's theirs to keep. Why should the state bale them out when they fail? By the way - my friends know my views on this. I still shoot on their farms because they want the job done. Also - perhaps you can help me out on the vegetarian wine thing? I thought it was all produced from grapes, do you know of some other kind with meat in it? If so, I'd like to try it. I like meat. Your characterisation of my position on farmers and farming is false. It is a total distortion. What I said about farmers was the following: Farmers are almost unique in British business by being compensated when their product is defective (sick). A good deal of the TB problem has been shown to be caused by trade in animals. The H5N1 outbreak at a Norfolk turkey enterprise was trucked in from Hungary by the affected company but there were attempts to blame wildlife as the vector. The company that caused the outbreak by its poor bio-security received a huge tax payer crock of cash for the dead birds it had caused to become infected. Farmers are a tiny minority of the population of the UK - less than 1% of the population. They can not be allowed to dictate policy against the bulk of scientific evidence. Now that is what I have said, so maybe if you could cut out the personal invective, grow up, act like an adult and point out where my statements are factually in error. This would be a better use of your time than telling me how horrible I am, and trying to characterise me as a lefty for advocating conservative policies (note - that's conservative with a small 'c' - it does make a difference).

Just mind you stay out of the system folders when you start deleting things. If it was mine, I'd be interested to know what programme created all these hidden files. Maybe the computer has been taken over by a bot net and is now a porn server or something nefarious. Get real Evilv!! This is EE here, the whole PC is a porn server, there's nowt else on it! Most nefarious...

Just mind you stay out of the system folders when you start deleting things. If it was mine, I'd be interested to know what programme created all these hidden files. Maybe the computer has been taken over by a bot net and is now a porn server or something nefarious.

Excellent answer. Never shot an HMR, but had lots of experience with 22lr and WMR. WMR was a revelation after the LR, pretty flat and 'most devastating' as Mr Burns might have said, but the HMR is very much flatter and has plenty of violence in it at a good range. Look at these figures I just got out of the free ballistics programme Point Blank: Ballistic Coeff: 0.123 Bullet Weight: 17 Velocity: 2550 Target Distance: 110 Scope Height: 1.500 Temperature: 70 Altitude: 500 Ballistic Data ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Range Elevation Velocity Energy ETA Drop Max Y 10mph Wind Deflect 0 yds -1.50 in 2550 fps 245 fpe 0.000 sec 0.00 in -1.50 in 0.00 in 25 yds -0.42 in 2381 fps 214 fpe 0.030 sec 0.17 in -0.56 in 0.16 in 50 yds 0.26 in 2220 fps 186 fpe 0.063 sec 0.73 in -0.41 in 0.75 in 75 yds 0.51 in 2064 fps 161 fpe 0.098 sec 1.73 in -0.13 in 1.74 in 100 yds 0.26 in 1914 fps 138 fpe 0.136 sec 3.23 in 0.29 in 3.15 in 125 yds -0.60 in 1772 fps 119 fpe 0.176 sec 5.34 in 0.91 in 5.17 in 150 yds -2.18 in 1639 fps 101 fpe 0.221 sec 8.17 in 1.77 in 7.80 in 175 yds -4.52 in 1513 fps 86 fpe 0.268 sec 11.75 in 2.89 in 10.95 in 200 yds -7.84 in 1398 fps 74 fpe 0.320 sec 16.33 in 4.37 in 14.85 in Being able to just put the cross on the target area and know that between 25 and 125 yards it is within half an inch up or down from your cross hairs is a great asset in my opinion. I can't wait to pick up my HMR in the next few days and get 'cracking' with it. By the way, I think the ammo is similarly expensive for HMR and WMR too, so no advantage much either way on that one. I still expect to do a lot of donkey work with my CZ 22LR because of cost when there are a lot of rabbits about like now, but the HMR will really come into its own in the autumn and winter when they get a bit more grown up and shy. I'll probably stop buying the stingers now for longer ranges - HMR will do for them. I've had a lot of fun trying out the stingers though - they really pack a wallop out to 80 yards or so. After that, they aren't accurate enough, at least in my hands, to be sure I get them in the right spot for an instant kill. The main reason for this might be that they're blown about quite badly and it is rarely still on my best shoots.

sorry click wrong quote earlier hi but were i shoot there is horses and not wanting to spook them when they in feilds in the good weather not so bad in winter months as they in stables but all the same they are a cracking little rifle which can hold 16 rounds in .22 nice and light aswell to carry around all day Ah - yes I see. I shoot on a place with a lot of horses too. They don't generally seem that frisky though when I shoot off a stinger and they are loudish without the mod on. Anyway - The variation came through (on the phone - it will be posted out in a short while) so I bought a new Winchester 9417 I found on Guntrader. I had the 9422 in WMR twenty some years ago so I know the gun and they are excellent. I like this better than the Henry's because they are steel receivers rather than alloy. They stopped making these in 2005 and I didn't expect to be able to find one at a sensible price.

That's quite consoling about the HMR. I just tracked down a brand new Winchester 9417 in Leicestershire and bought it. I was expecting to have to clean out the copper fouling more often than that, so thanks.

Well - thanks. You're free to come up with some persuasive and sensible arguments if you want. And so are you. In the absence of either, I'll support the line presented by several other people here who have pointed out that the stupidity of an all out cull as happened in Ireland where they now have virtually no badgers and a record high level of bovine TB, and the idea that licensed culling may be necessary in SOME areas where badgers have become very numerous. Facts and sensible deductions make a person right and their absence makes them wrong - nothing else.

Thanks m8. I do like the CZ based on the price, really good value considering. The eley ammo is ok for me as I have a friend who works for eley so can get a good discount, I already get a lot of eley misprints at silly low prices. Thanks My cz 425 zkm standard, delivers half inch groups with eley subs at 50 - 60 yards in practical, windy conditions where I am often far from ideally comfortable, lying in long grass without a bipod and propping up the rifle on a rolled up gun slip and such like non-ideal circumstances. The rifle and ammo are far better than I am and they really do deliver ragged centimeter and a half holes and all the shots touching one another in dirty rotten conditions. By the way - I almost never clean the barrel either. Maybe once in five hundred rounds I might drag a patch through the old tube.

I use an IKEA bag and put the rabbits into black bin bags and dump them in the IKEA blue bag. Strong, big capacity and cheap. Chuck it in the washer or the bin when it gets mucked up. It has short and long webbing strap handles so you can carry it in the hand or over the shoulder. It may lack style if that is important to anyone. It isn't to me. Why pay money for a bag to carry stinking rabbits in? It will hold more rabbits than you will want to carry home for sure.

He is a total criminal menace and I'm ashamed that the city I was born in and grew up in, is associated with and is standing behind this piece of scum. If football clubs took seriously their responsibilities as regards the aspirations of the tens of thousands of young lads who idolise their players, they would throw this chav, Barton off the nearest pier and tell him to get lost. Keegan has dressed up the decision to keep him, by claiming a desire to reform him. There is no hope of that, and they know it. This is a cynical financial decision and nothing less. Barton is a nutcase, and a thoroughly disgraceful example to the lads of Newcastle, many of whom have no male role models but men like him. This is a tragedy for society and decency. The message to young lads and society in general should be simple - 'Behave like a wild animal and you will pay dearly. Barton has got off far too lightly and is still likely to be earning £40k a week.

Is he representing their official policy? Do they know he is using their name in advocating this line of action? I thought BASC was a shooting and conservation organisation. His use of their name in this campaign seems contradictory to the aims of the organisation as I understand them. Is BASC a pressure group for the dairy industry now? EDIT - Ah, on reading further, I see others have said pretty much the same.

If the fleas that carry myxy are in the warrens, how is that any different in the summer to the winter? They will still infect the ones in the warren, who will spread it, as in summer, yes? I have a sneaky suspicion, agreed also by some farmers, that the disease is re-released every year, it will be interesting to track it's progress on the forum, could this be made a sticky, so that we can follow the spread? I shot two with what I think was myxi last week; one up in the Pennines and one down the Tyne Valley. Most of the others were unaffected so far. Neither were the classic hugely swollen eyes and hopelessly blind though. One was an adult, but very thin with baldness around the eyes and the other was a young one with baldy eyes and a rather trusting nature, which sat out until I got within 50 yards while the rest had gone running as I got out of the car. I think this might be the early stages of the disease. The full blown version I can recognise for sure like everyone else. EDIT: Just found this on the web. The last bit in bold is probably the most interesting bit. ->

Sounds like you've had a few cans there mate. Don't worry about my permissions, I have more acres than I can get around and I got another 300 last week. I actually shot over 60 rabbits last week alone. That's why they take me on and insist that I come as often as possible. Salisbury keeper has a sensible suggestion. Wildlife needs to be kept in balance, or things get too one-sided. The same goes for the occupiers of land. It can never be right that we allow a small interest group like farmers* to decide to eradicate a native animal, which is what would happen if it were allowed in this case. As we have seen here, they would act on emotion rather than fact. Some of the arguments evinced here are completely blind to the facts that in Ireland where badgers are virtually extinct, TB is rising to record levels. What does that mean? It should be clear - if badgers were a major cause of TB spread, in Ireland where there are virtually none left, TB would be falling. This conclusion seems to escape some and that is why government has to be involved to stop what would happen. Control of excessive numbers, and re-establishing a balance where a species has become far too numerous, is a sane, sensible, and proper response. In order to keep it out of the hands of idiots, Salisburykeeper's solution of a kind of license is a good one. I shoot hundreds of rabbits every summer because they are out of balance with the rest of nature. If badgers are out of balance in some areas they may need some control. A policy if general eradication as happened in Ireland is an ecological disaster. It happened because the demands of farmers based on inadequate thinking was placed above scientific evidence and the actual facts. *Why are farmers described above as 'a small interest group'? Because the entire full time farming workforce is only 184,000 out of a population in the UK of approaching 61 million. That means that a third of one percent of the population are in full time farming. Even when we take into account all the hobby farmers, and those that keep the odd horse or goat in a field somewhere we find that the number is 534,000. That's still less that one percent of the entire British population. We can never let such a small proportion of our people dictate the fate of a native wild animal. That should be obvious to anybody that isn't drunk. Figures on farming workforce derived from this source -> UK AGRICULTURE

That's a different matter entirely. I too have had genuine complaints ignored by idle policemen, more interested in fulfilling targets than in solving what they refer too as 'minor crime'. They should do their job properly and pursue the offenders who cause respectable people problems. This sad fact of modern British life does not detract from the the fact that lumping all people of a particular ethnic or social 'type' together as if they were one individual, all collectively guilty of the same vices as the worst of their number is a damned wrong and unjust way to think and act. A man is guilty of his own crimes and not those of people who happen to look like him, sound like him, or belong to the same class. That's how I want to be treated, and if it's good enough for me, it's good enough for anyone else, be he a prince or a *****.

Deer also carry TB, whether they gave it to badgers or vice-versa is unknown, they also travel far greater distances, what do you want to do about deer? Wipe 'em out! I feel for the farmers - I feel they are just about the one business sector that get full compensation for spreading diseases. Take Bernard Mathews for an example. Millionaire turkey magnate runs an import business that brings turkey meat to Britain from Hungarian turkey operation, also owned by Mathews. Bird Flu in Hungary, followed rapidly by bird flu in Norfolk where the imported meat was received. Same strain of disease, no other vector. What happens? Bernard Mathews gets massive tax payer pay out. I bet the other business men of Britain wish they got tax payer compensation for their disappointments and crises.

try telling that to a farmer who has lost everything ROFLMAO Yeah - like lost everything at the casino? Last I heard, all these outfits get full market rate compensation at tax[payer expense. My farmer friends laugh about how much they made out of FMD. It was the guys who didn't get FMD that lost out, and everybody knows it who knows anything. As for the ludicrous comment by another poster above who said something about badgers increasing and Bovine TB increasing - lol - there's a fault in the logic there, but somebody else pointed it out. What is increasing is animal movement for trade. The disease is called BOVINE TB, not badger TB. People keep large herds of TB susceptible, unvaccinated animals at high density, they truck them around the country, buying and selling to make some dosh, and when a few of them turn out to have BOVINE TB (that means COW TB) they want to wipe out the poor bluddy badgers who probably caught TB off the cows in the first place. How stupid is that? Especially when the virtually extinct Irish badger population seems to be responsible for a vast increase in Irish Bovine TB.... Maybe it is being spread there by that elusive species, the Lesser Irish Ghost Badger. That's the evidence people should say 'What more evidence do they want?' about. People are susceptible to TB. We vaccinate them. I bet there isn't a guy on this forum who wasn't vaccinated against TB when he was at school. We should vaccinate our herds and be done with it. Of course it won't happen, because it will affect the profits of the international meat and animal traders who are the ones who really dictate such policy matters. Those who signed that petition should read these words from the Independent Scientific Group that carried out a ten year investigation into the problem. After making clear that experience shows that the culing of badgers spreads badgers far and wide taking the infection with them to uninfected areas, they made the following conclusion clear:

Presumably, you are speaking of the father here. If so, do you know him and have chapter and verse on his approach to others, or are you simply lumping him in with others that you don't know either and assume are one hundred per cent criminal? I'd like to see severe punishment meted out to criminals, but in this country, condemnation isn't given out on the basis of your race, or social category, but after a careful examination of the evidence of your guilt in a particular matter. That's what distinguishes us from the savages where mob rule runs.

My shotgunning efforts over several decades have always been hampered by thinking it will kill rabbits at a much greater range than it will. A lot of people I've shot with, especially those new to the game, shoot at rabbits that are far too far away. When you show them the limit on the ground they can't believe it. Pace out 40 yards and look hard at the distance. You are chancing your arm at anything further than that. Thirty five yards is a better limit. If you want to get them from further afield, get a rifle.

Err - hold on a minute there - Telegraph article showing that culling has little or no effect. Wiping out a native animal should be based on good evidence. The evidence shows that it doesn't work. Badgers have been virtually made extinct in Ireland and they have seen a rise in TB, not only that, they have far more TB than we have in England. Cattle diseases of all kinds as well as bird flu are much more spread by animal trade than by wildlife. FMD went country wide because of the huge volume of trade in beasts same with Bernard Mafeew and his Bird Flue outbreak. The trade claimed it was spread by wild birds - ******** - Mafews was trucking in infected birds from near an outbreak in Hungary to a processing plant right next door to a massive turkey growing operation. The genetic footprint of the virus was identical to the Hungarian one, thrity miles away from where he was shipping in about four truckloads of turkey carcases a week. One of the farms I shoot on, the guy was a big dealer in sheep at the time of the FMD plague. He was buying hundreds, keeping them a few days and selling them on. There are other solutions we could try - like vaccination. I'm a shooter to my bones, but part of that has to be preserving the wild species we have.

I'm actually toying with the idea of selling on the cz452 and getting one of the octagon barrel, frontier models as well as the varminter express. To be honest, I reckon I could shoot a rabbit at 50 yards with open sights every time anyway and this .22lr is really nice in my opinion. radio1ham - I'm noticing that noise is not such a deterrent for most of my rabbiting, and with sub sonic ammo the report is tiny anyway. The cz with a mod is quieter than an airgun and the thwack of the rabbit being struck is FAR louder than the unmoded shot. The rabbits usually don't even notice even that right nearby.

Hey thanks for that Rabbithunter. Sorry for not replying earlier, I just found this today. Very interesting and confirms that I will probably be getting one. Only thing I would change about it if I could would be that the receiver was made out of case hardened steel with that kind of lovely blueing that gives. I'm a bit put off by the painted nature of the receiver, but the damned thing works well, and I like the shape, so that will have to do for now. I could see if they do the GoldenBoy in 17hmr, but I doubt they do. I won't have it moderated though. Would ruin the looks, and I expect that the bullet crack is so loud the muzzle report won't frighten them any more than the crack of the supersonic bullet. If I want 'quiet' I can have it with the cz and subs. This is for style and longer shots.

Yeah - I know Rodger won't like it. Just got in from a hot shooting day up the Tyne Valley. I only saw four rabbits all afternoon. Three of them are out the back now. I feed them to our urban foxes. They come to my garden every night and get a take away, unless I tie it down for filming like on here - > This was last week. Fox Cam That stopped hsi take away games the little devil....

Not wanting to be pedantic or anything Harnser (liar - I'm a pedant to my bones) but Man has only been around at tops for about 100,000 years. The planet and the solar system itself is only 4.5 billion years old and the whole observable universe is less than 16 billion years old, so I'm a bit dubious about your suggestion that man has been clawing his way up the food chain for 10 billion years. That would mean he was doing it 5.5 billion years before the earth began to collect out of a dust cloud. Just being a pain in the butt here, and having a laugh. Vegans though truly are an evolutionary blind alley. I never saw a healthy vegan yet. They always look like they have cancer to me. (bad taste remark - I know. Switch bad taste filter back on). The development of human intelligence above that of apes is often attributed to the fact that our ancestors moved towards a greater proportion of meat in their diets and the early modern humans ate mostly meat with roots, leaves and fruit that they could add to it as they wandered around with sharp sticks for hunting. The consumption of meat allows better brain development and greater leisure time which means that people can develop technologies like firearms rather than crunching away at straw and grass and wearing out their teeth. Hence, man is nothing if nit a meat eater by his very nature. Even our relatives the apes eat meat whenever they can get it. They become extremely excited at the prospect if they can catch a small animal and eat it. They also kill members of neigbouring troops and eat them. Interesting link on apes, humans and meat eating. All vegetarian freaks should read this: Meat Eating and Hunting are core human activities