Evilv

I wrote somewhere else on here the other day that my experience with stingers was that it ricoched more than the eley subs I use normally. You really need to be firing it into a backstop. I was sighting the scope in when I changed ammo from the subs. the ground was baked hard and bare, and shot after shot went whinning away up into an embankment where they are building a road through one of my farms. It was quite disturbing. They seemed to be going up at an angle of about thirty or more degrees from the horizontal that they had been fired at. The stinger definitely will not destroy itself, only what it hits - and how. The round isn't all that accurate either. Somewhere around an inch and a half at sixty metres out of my rifle. The effect on rabbits is dramatic though. Like that ciillit bang advert - "Bang and the head is gone."

Since you can't really fabricate a jacketed bullet, you'd have to load them very very soft to make it possible to shoot home cast bullets accurately. I used to shoot a lot of black powder years ago, and the only way a lead unjacketed bullet can be shot accurately is to keep the velocity down. There is also the rifling twist rate to take into account too, and I can't guess what effects that might have if the barrel was set up for jacketed ammo. Lead won't hold the rifling at high velocity or at a rapid twist. I suspect that a 243 loaded with a normal powder load and a lead bullet would just tear the bullet up on the way down the barrel and shoot like a proper dog.

One other thing you should bear in mind is that they are not as pin point accurate as lower velocity rounds. I suspect that when you get up around 1640 fps, the lead isn't holding so well in the rifling. All the very fast rounds like .22WMR and the Mach 2 and HMR are jacketed and shoot better groups. If you can get to within 60 yards of charlie 'no problem' as you say, if it were me, I'd try and get within 40 before you take the shot with a .22. The damage on rabbits is pretty mega. I shot eleven yesterday and some had not much left of their heads - the other side was gone, but as in all shooting, shot placement is the crucial thing. I'd be more than pleased with the stingers if they shot groups like the eley subs do, fact is, they don't. I need some really calm weather to test them fully, but the groups are twice the width of the eleys. Group sizes at 50 yards in a test shooting of different rounds in inches: CCI STINGER 1.59 CCI VELOCITOR 1.13 FEDERAL CLASSIC HIGH VELOCITY 1.20 WINCHESTER HIGH VELOCITY HP 1.15 CCI STANDARD VELOCITY .77 REMINGTON STANDARD VELOCITY 1.04 REMINGTON /ELEY MATCH EPS .75 WOLF MATCH EXTRA .40 semi auto test This might amuse you a bit. It does me.

MMmmmm now thats really put me in the mood for rabbit pie. I'm not aiming this at you (cuse the pun) but there seems to be an evolving culture these days to cause as much carnage as possible to ones quarry. Do people not eat rabbits anymore or what? Must admit that I don't eat as many but I do feed them to my dogs and ferrets. John That's a fair point and I don't take it ill at all. Long ago in the eighties I used to shoot rabbits with a .22WMR and it was headshots only or maybe the odd chestshot low down if you wanted to eat them, but you certainly hat to throw away the whole rib cage and shoulders. Then after Hungerford, Sartin and a sh*ty attitude from the cops, I gave up for a long time and came back as an airgunner. Well we all know that the only humane thing there is a precise headshot at 35 yards. I now use a rather quaint looking CZ452 zkm with a long barrel and it is the most accurate rifle I ever had with eley subs. They will hit dead on at 60 yards every time as long as I do my part and head shots with the little sub sonic will kill stone dead and do it quietly. However - longer shots are a pain with the mortar shell trajectory of the subsonic round. It's so easy to miss through a wrong range finding judgment in the half dark of evening. That's where the stinger scores, but for sure -HEAD SHOTS ONLY if you want to eat the bunny. I ate about four rabbits in the last week. I'm very much enjoying my garlic, leek, carrot , onion and pork belly rabbit pies. I made two big ones on Tuesday and ate them until Saturday for lunches. At long range like eighty yards with stingers, I have tended to aim at the centre of the shoulder or neck, depending on how the rabbit is sitting. Of course then I just discarded the meat from the chest forward. You still have the main meat bearing parts which always were the back and hind quarters. I mean, how much meat is there on the front legs and ribs? The stinger shoots wider groups from my rifle at sixty yards. Probably about an inch and a quarter as against about 3/4 with the eley sub. The flatness is great though. I sighted it dead on at 70 yards and it is for all practical purposes flat between 30 and 75 yards. Cross aimed dead on and they go down like instantly. Never had a runner or one of those annoying ones that go down flat, lie still and ten twitch their way into a burrow five seconds later. I shoot a lot on big burrows where theres a hole every three feet. They can easily vanish down them and I often pull out a well shot bunny from 18 inches into a hole - dead as a dodo. Not with he stinger. They go down and stay there. As for dead on at a hundred - I wouldn't say so if it was sighted in at 70 yards. You'd need a two inch hold over at a hundred. Aiming dead on at a rabbit and you'd have missed it or shot its foot off, which would be cruel. The other thing is that the stinger is loud. I've still shot three half grown rabbits that were sitting within a few yards of each other. They did jump up and look alert, but they stayed around. With the whispering eleys, the neighbours don't even notice the shot at all. Resting on the top of the car or off a cushion, I can shoot a cloverleaf at 45 yards with the eleys. Can't with stingers. You pays, yer money and you takes yer choice I suppose.

Completely agree DaveK's profile is far from informative. All it says is that he's male and from somewhere else. Great basis to start lecturing others on profiles - NOT.

These two didn't argue with my .22lr. Shot at about 45 yards with 1640 fps muzzle velocity round. At 45 yards it's still doing about 1400fp. The results speak for themselves. Groups are not anything like as tight as the eley subs though, but shoots flatter and hits like a ton of bricks. We've been 'Stingered'.

double post

I had a lovely little Winchester under lever rifle in .22 wmr back in the early 1980s. It was a little beauty. I favoured the RWS rounds for that, but I remember they cost a damned fortune. They were hollow points. I don't think there were any ballistic tipped ones for the round then. They could literally turn a rabbit inside out at about 80 yards. If you wanted to eat them, head was the only target and only if it was sideways on other wise the whole body was pulped and full of excrement. That rifle made a real bang like the old .303 I had at the same time, though maybe not quite that loud, but it made a satisfying crack anyway.

Badly. I was sighting the rifle yesterday on quite hard ground on one of my shoots. I had the target at 72 yards and there was a large embankment behind. The ground is hard and dry. A by pass is being built through this farm and the embankment is pretty huge and going upwards at about 30 degrees. the bank began about forty yards behind the target. Shot after shot went whining away into the distance. I feel they must have gone up and over the bank. Fortunately there is a five hundred foot rising hill behind and there is no stock around because they are empty hay fields. The round does ricochet and is worse for it than the eley subs. I fired a good few of them in the exact same circumstances and only got one whiner.

Outstanding! Of course - now that all makes perfect sense. Thanks. I've been puzzled about how by taking off my sound moderator the rifle seemed to shoot to the left. I convinced myself it was due to windage blowing the .22 bullets left. The wind was in that direction, but thinking about it now, the with and without mod trials were done within minutes of each other. I suppose a five inch long mod screwed on the barrel will effect barrel vibrations in the same way as different explosive and bullet weights.

Don't let me put you off them. Try them since you've already bought them. 1640 fps is nothing like an HMR, but it is usefully flat when you are struggling to judge the distance of a bunny in the mid summer twilight. I've sighted the rifle at 72 yards and between about 35 and 85 yards I just put the cross on the ******'s head and squeeze. I have a picture here of the results. Don't look if you are squeamish. These two boyos were shot last night at about 8o yards. These are exit holes - or craters. 80 yard stinger exit holes

John pretty well sums it up, you have to try them all, as accuracy is what matters most. Bullet point shape is not worth worrying about as most 22's go straight through rabbits. I've been shooting eley subs almost exclusively in my long barreled CZ452. The above advice is exactly what I found. Half inch groups at 60 yards and stone dead rabbits almost every time. The only exceptions I have had to that were caused by wind drifted bullets. The eley round has been completely accurate with over a thousand rounds and no barrel cleaning at all. The round is silently deadly in the CZ. I bought a hundred CCI stingers just for a lark last Friday and so far have found them VERY loud. They also shoot bigger groups, but are much flatter so I have been able to extend the range I would normally shoot at without big hold over problems. The Stinger shoot a full two inches higher than the eley sub at 55 - 60 yards. The damage done to the carcasses is also much greater. It really smashes them causing massive exit wounds at 8o yards. I am not sure about the accuracy yet though and know for sure that the groups sizes are about twice as large at 60yards. It could be my fault, but I'll try another hundred before I decide. With a moderator the sub is almost silent. This can be a great asset if there are many rabbits. I have often shot five and six sitting within a few yards of one another and they barely seemed to notice their mates keeling over and twitching. The stingers are loud, but the rabbits don't twitch at all. Unfortunately, their mates tend to run off as if I'd fired a shell at them. The eley subs and stingers always go straight through the rabbit. Terminal energy at 60 yards for the eley sub is about 75 ft pounds. The stinger's is about 120 ft pounds. Both are well over what you need. I killed hundreds of rabbits with an 11ft pound air rifle.

I can understand why it might shoot higher or lower, but why would the point of impact move to the left? That must be down to windage surely?

I'd be very interested in your findings when you get the chance. I went out last night and shot another eleven rabbits. The flat nature of the stinger's trajectory makes it easy at longer ranges than the accurate but curvy subsonic eley round. The stinger also makes big holes in the rabbits well out to like 80 yards. These two boyos went down without a twitch at about 80 yards. Looking at the damage, I am not at all surprised. These are exit holes.

I've seen lots in Northumberland especially around Thrunton Woods which is not far from Rothbury. That whole area has lots of them in summer, though they generally slip away when they sense the vibrations of people coming. I've seen them a few times even in March on a warm day, just lying sunbathing. At that time of year, they are pretty slow and don't try to escape when you approach, but they can still strike and bite if you mess with them, so don't do it. I saw a skin last year and a moment later spotted the snake that had shed it curled up by a rock in the sunshine. My Border Terrier was bitten by one at Thrunton while charging about in the heather. She was well knackered and wouldn't walk - just stood still, quivering and hanging her head so I had to carry her back to the car and get her seen by a vet. Her shoulder was very swollen. She recovered quite well after anti inflamatories were given. She seemed much happier within about two hours of treatment. The fiercest adder I ever saw was a tiny baby one about the length and thickness of a pencil. I was with my kids walking near Rothbury and it was lying in the middle of a forest road. When we gathered around it at a distance of about a yard, this little thing reared up like some kind of monster and hissed with its mouth gaping wide and it struck out in all directions like a whirling dirvish. We were well intimidated and cleared off.

These are really nice. I have one. It is deadly accurate with accupels. If this one is as good as mine and it's probably better if it has been little used, you would not be disappointed in it.

Thirty years ago, maybe thirty-five, I borrowed a mates old twelve bore hammer gun. It developed a nasty habit of discharging both barrels occasionally when only the front trigger was pulled. When I tool the lock off to look at what was going wrong, I discovered that someone had put in a pathetically weak spring at sometime. It looked so fine, it might have come out of a kiddies cap gun and was far different to the one on the other side.The spring kept the sear engaged and the recoil of firing the other barrel could make it let go. It was a far better shooter of close bolting rabbits than my rather over choked Spanish side by side, so I was sorry to stop using it on the rough shoot we had. I expect the gun was made around the turn of the nineteenth century. Someone told me it had black powder proof marks on it, but now it is so long ago I can't remember what they looked like. One time I was out shooting with a mate who negligently discharged his 12 bore right behind me and covered me in earth from a large hole about 18 inches behind my foot. I am very wary of him if we ever go shooting and keep a very sharp eye on him. To be honest, I never trusted him since. He could easily have taken my leg off.

They still have most of their energy left at that distance EvilElvis. I ran a simulation on Point Blank and an Eley sub which started at the muzzle with 104 foot pounds still has 72 foot pounds at a hundred yards. The Stinger which started at 191 foot pounds has lost a huge amount and is down to 93 ft pds at a hundred yards. The difference isn't all that much by then, but to be honest, if you can get them to shoot out of your rifle with good accuracy, it will be a fair bit easier to judge the drop at that distance, given that it is only 2.25 inches for the stinger or 7.5 for the eley sub. I suspect though that the fact that the bullet has gone through the transonic stage by 100 metres and may well be wobbly by then could make it a lot less accurate than the slow old eley.

I agree with you on that. The .22LR subsonic is a deadly accurate little round and will kill at 80 yards IF YOU CAN JUDGE THE DROP. I use mine zeroed at 50 yards and it is pretty well aim dead on from 35 to 60 yards. I know its shooting a little high at 35 and a little low at 60, but put the cross in the middle of a rabbits neck or head and it is in the bag either way and without any drama. I bought the CCI stinger as an experiment, and once I had zeroed it at about 70 paces it seemed a very convincing killer out to 80 - 90 and beyond. Nothing I pointed it at got up to argue even at well past 80. My feeling is though that so far it isn't as accurate and I ha a couple of fliers on paper that could have been me, but I don't think they were. I have 61 rounds left, so I'll go out this evening and try them some more before I decide on the round. It is VERY loud though, but strangely, the rabbits I shot on Friday afternoon didn't seem at ball bothered by that. I did have the moderator on, but they were still loud as hell. With the eley subs the only sound worth mentioning is the 'TWOCK' of the rabbit having its brains rearranged. I'd really appreciate hearing people's experience with the CCI stinger and CZ 452 (I can't actually remember the model number but its the European stocked long barrel cheap cz Its a lovely little shooter though, best .22 I ever had.Easy to get cloverleaf groups at 55 yards with eley subs.

If CCI had thought they could get more velocity out of the .22 rimfire round in a safe way, I doubt they would have stopped at a velocity of 1640 fps. I think it should tell our friend something that they didn't. I'd say they knew they were near the safe pressure limits for the case. When a case blows out in his rifle, I hope he doesn't get a face full of hot gas and fragments of brass. I see he claims to be a reloader of .22 rimfire in another thread. I'd be interested in where he gets the priming compound, how he gets it into the rims of the cases and why he thinks it is a worthwhile proposition to reload a round that he can buy new for 10 pence a shot in hyper velocity form. I bought a hundred rounds of CCI stinger yesterday. My impression was that they were very loud. I usually shoot silenced eley subs. The groups were larger than I'm used to as well. However. I spotted four rabbits at about a hundred yards distance and took down every one of them as instant kills, one after another. They didn't seem unduly bothered by the noise which was surprising since they were well grown. If I can get these rounds to group like my eley subs, I'll use them in future.

I'd be interested to know how you got the priming compound into the rim of the cases. Apart from the technical difficulty, I'd also be interested in how you thought it worthwhile to reload a round that even at hyper velocity costs no more than ten pence per shot.

Thanks chaps - certainly food for thought here. Regards Evilv

Yes I agree with you about the holes in the fence thing. That's why I'd only use my least powerful gun. A 12 ft pound rifle will easily shoot through old boards -or even if it only might, I'm no way taking it down there with public land all around the outside of our boundary. I know the b4 is well less than my old TX200 was in power and the PCP is about the same as the TX was. I reckon the B4 might be about 8ftpounds. As you can see in the above photo that will do the job when close enough and in the roght spot. Magicaxeman was also right about letting the cops know on the morning where and when I would be doing the job so it is recorded in case a crack of dawn dog walker hears the Psssshhht and panics about idiot snipers. Thanks for all the guidance chaps - and cheers.

Yes, I'll talk to the FLO on Monday and get the resolution in writing. Cheers. The B4 is well accurate enough at under twenty yards. I shot rabbits myself with that. The B4 is better than a lot of people think, even if it is as crude as hell. These chaps didn't argue - that's for sure....

Thanks Pin - yes you are right about where it is. My choice would be to go down about 5AM before the dog walkers get out and about (they'd maybe get alarmed at the sound of an airgun and think some knacker was sniping at them) and set up about fifteen yards from the shed and take them out when they come up. The B4 will never penetrate the fence, but has been well used against hordes of young rabbits by my lads when they came with me and the rimmy to the farms. At that range the B4 will do the job and group about an inch or less. Plenty good enough against these varmints and no danger of anything going outside the fence unless a STUPID shot was taken which I would never do.