Evilv

The little CZ 425 is a truly gorgeous rifle in my opinion. The trigger has a bit of creep, and that may take a bit of getting used to, but it can be fixed for about £12 with the Brooks kit. I haven't bothered to do it to mine, and to be honest, I doubt it would improve my shooting much. The subsonic round from eley juts go off with a 'ping' - quieter than an air rifle in many cases and certainly quieter than my old silenced TX200 and the Webley and the rabbit drops dead with a 'Thwok' sound just about every time unless I pull the shot. Cost? About 7p a shot for the Eleys and no cleaning needed from one thousand rounds to the next. I squirt a bit of wd40 on it if it's been raining, but in dry weather, the oil tends to collect grit and **** from dust in the wind. Just lately, I have ben lubing the action with powdered graphite which I bought from a locksmith in a sort of puffer dispenser pack with a spout on it. Result? Smooth action and no more collecting of grit and dust. Works really well I think. I'm kind of keen to get my variation back so I can order the 17hmr. I'm strongly tempted to buy a Henry Varminter Express. I like the lever action style with a tube magazine under the barrel. Had a .22 Magnum once from Winchester in that style a long time ago and that was an awesome bunny exploder. I sold it around 1987 to my immense regret ever since but I needed some cash. Didn't get a great price for it either even though it went with about 250 rounds of RWS top quality jacketed hollow points that cost a fortune as I recall. It wasn't cheap to shoot mind, but it didn't half make the right noise and it had a very convincing effect on the vermin. I know this is a very long outfit, but I like the slightly archaic style. Sometimes I shoot it with the open sights. I kind of like the traditional style of rifle and with the scope and the silencer off, this one is nothing if not traditional in style - less effective mind you, but it makes you feel good, squinting down that 24 inch barrel and putting the bead on a brown smudge 55 yards off. For some reason (age) the target always looks like a smudge these days when viewed with open sights. Drat - I could have shot a mouse with open sights at that distance thirty years ago.

Well on the first point you have about right. If I'm not shooting into the hillside, I'm not happy unless there is a stone wall (the usual field boundary around here) right behind the rabbit. I've had a few long ricochet's when shooting down the hill onto rabbits on ground that I thought would absorb the bullet. Angles less than about 25 degrees to the ground can cause bouncers. Don't take that number as gospel, but what I'm saying is that the shape at the point of impact can make what I thought would be safe, not so safe. If it's wet, these problems are a lot less. Also, the up and down nature of hilly land can shorten your view and make it hard to know what is over the horizon which can easily be less than a hundred yards so that I'm wondering if there is any stock just out of sight. On your rolling land - I have just got some roilling land in the Tyne Valley. I've only been around it once so far. There are all kinds of places on it where I wouldn't want a ricochet. As for the variation: you have to fill in another application minus the part about referees and say what you want and why. I understand it can take a week and maybe two if there are any ussues they want to look into. How far would a ricochet go in this landscape? Pretty far I think.

Just stick a CCI Stinger in the chamber next time and at 40 yards you could drop me in my tracks let alone old Charlie. I'm not recommending the old .22 for this work, but doing it that way would be a hell of a lot better than taking a hack saw or a pen knife to the business end of a bullet.

I completely agree on the ricochet thing. I am at this very moment awaiting a variation so that I can get a 17hmr. There are tons of shots I just can't take for fear that the damned bullet will pass right through, skip off the ground and howl away in an unsafe direction. We will ALWAYS have to stop and think before lining up and firing a shot, whatever caliber, but there is a tonne of energy left in those bullets after they have done the job on Roger Rabbit, and as you well know, it often enough ends up whizzing off into the wild blue yonder after hitting the deck hard and skipping up again. Fortunately much of my shooting is hill land and empty. I doubt the population density is even 1 person per square kilometer - actually, it is bound to be far less than that, and there is nothing better at stopping a bouncer than an empty fell rising five hundred feet above your line of fire. Shooting down the hill is a no no though, because it often bounces when I do and then it can go as far as it likes. Fortunately for me, when I have done that, the place is empty.

I know you're joking about the suit, but just in case of doubt, I just mean look clean and tidy and presentable. It really helps if you've done your homework and you turn up and say something like, 'Hello, is it possible to speak to Mr Macdonald?' rather than, 'Can I speak to the farmer?' or 'Is the farmer in?' Even if you do everything right, don't be discouraged over knock backs. When I was starting out in shooting thirty odd years ago, I had to drive half way around the county and call at what seemed like dozens of farms before I found anything half way decent to shoot over, before long though I had more shooting than I could reaslistically get around.

I have no problem with people deciding how they want to live their lives and doing it. I want people to be as free as possible from interference by the state and others. Obviously, this implies that we act responsibly and don't do things that remove the freedom of others - even veggies. However I have a BIG PROBLEM with militant eco-fascists or any other group that seeks to impose its will on others, ESPECIALLY IF IT TRIES TO IMPOSE ITS WILL ON ME. Militant Veggies and such like freaks are not only an evolutionary sideline (human beings have never been vegetarians since their ancestors climbed down from the trees and stood up on their hind legs) but they are a dangerous group of ideologues who seek in alliance with militant lefty gun control freaks, to tie up the honest countryman and sporting shooter, with laws that are predicated on the idea that because some dangerous people exist, all people should be treated as if they are dangerous, and must be deprived of the freedom to own and use guns, or if not that, be so tied up with red tape that they hardly dare take out an air gun onto the farm, in case by some freak of nature, it's spring has got a hard on, and it might put out a trifle more than an arbitrarily arrived at power limit of 12 ft pounds, which equates to peanut power in terms of firearms, in any case. Militant eco fascists are dangerous to your freedom and should be dealt with by derision, scorn, and ultimately by law. I think we should never dignify their stupidity by treating them as serious debating partners. Neither should we shrug and ignore them. We need good, effective campaigning organisations to oppose their fascism and ensure that firearms laws, far from being tightened are liberalised so that we can act responsibly and enjoy the right to be treated as adults unless and until we show ourselves as unfit through misbehaving with them. I say to the government, don't judge the rest of us by the standards of lunatics like Thomas Hamilton. British Law on firearms, knives and many things seems to be entirely the wrong way around - it assumes that you are bad until proven otherwise. Therein lies a recipe to put us all in chains on the grounds that we might do something bad. Some men rape, so all might be required to have a permit for their private parts.... Where will it end?

In my humble opinion that is the ONLY place likely to stop them in their tracks with a standard type air rifle. Elsewhere, is likely to turn out to give thema slow death or a big problem and a recovery. Inhumane either way.

They look heavy Bob. Must be about 60 grains at least. Not much room for powder either, but I suspect that most of the case in an Eley sub is empty anyway. Just a sniff of powder - but I'm just guessing here, although I have shaken them and you can hear that there isn't much inside them if you shake them near your lug hole and then do the same with an HV round the powder difference is obvious in a rough and ready kind of way. Also Bob, which of my points were you referring to, the one about slaughtermen and crazed bulls or the special forces one?

Hollow points are NOT Dum-Dum bullets. Dum-Dum bullets were made in India in Mk.2 .303 and introduced into Indian service in 1896-7. In 1899 expanding bullets were declared by the Geneva Convention as inhumane, and illegal for use on humans. Dum-Dum bullets were not hollow points either, they were soft points. I was reading about this the other day Bob. They replaced the Martini Henry 45/70 with the new fangled high velocity .303 and when they shot the savages with them in those hot and nasty countries (I think it was around Afghanistan somewhere) they just got up and came on running, not having had the convincing shock of being hit by a .45. They used these lead dum dumbs quite happily until having to fight against western people and then it was thought bad form. Also, they didn't want the same kind of stuff back from them (two way dum dums). This is where it all gets cynical. The boffins designed an FMJ bullet that gets unstable when it hits flesh and tumbles causing severe wounds. This was done by filling the pointy end with an aluminium tip under the FMJ or even sterilised wood pulp, believe it or not. The military rounds are not as nice and civilised as they pretend to be. MORE INFO HERE -> Article on .303 and dum dums.

To get permission you need to look respectable, sound respectable and have decent social skills. That said, find out the names of farmers by looking them up in the phone book or from local intelligence, and go around in the evening and see them. It is also helpful if you can do some reconnaissance and target your efforts on farms that have a problem such as rabbits or pigeons. At this time of year, rabbits are a menace and many farmers will be glad to have a respectable lad doing something about their pests. Try not to look too green, and don't be cocky either. It is much harder to find permission near to large centers of population because farmers get a lot of ruffians turning up asking to shoot so they have an instant hostility to yet another stranger wanting to go around their property with a gun. You may well do better if you try further from the cities. Good luck.

Try asking at the local butchers - the old fashioned High Street kind, not Sainsburys. I asked at mine once and he offered me £2 for skinned an decent head shot rabbits. However, the trouble of skinning and presenting them nicely was far too much for that price. I shot 43 yesterday and left 37 on the ground. You might find that at this time of year there are so many available that no one wants them. sad really as they are good eating. Last year the same butcher I am talking about said he sold them for £7 each.

Interesting discussion. Isn't it ridiculous that the police in this country are allowed to re-define the language, dictate in minute detail what supposedly 'free men' are allowed to do on private land with the permission of the land owner, and funniest of all, that we are prepared to dance on a pin at their whims? Nowhere do the firearms acts say a thing about what caliber weapon must be used to shoot a fox. The police are supposed to uphold the law - not make it. This country has gone right to the dogs and the cops have FAR TOO MUCH POWER - WE must be mad to put up with it. Better just admit it. We live in a police state and we accept it and suck up anything they say. In the English language, in literature and in common usage, the fox is frequently described as vermin. No court would rule anything other than that a man who had a certificate condition that allowed him to shoot vermin could legally shoot a fox. Since the law does not specify as it does for deer, a minimum caliber for fox and since some forces will gladly hand out an HMR for fox, no case could be brought and succeed against a man who shot a fox unless his certificate specifically stated 'NOT FOR FOX'. Neither could they legally withdraw your certificate in my opinion. None of the above has any relevance to the question of whether the caliber in question is the best one to use, it is just a comment on the ever increasing officiousness and powers of the police to interfere in normal life without proper legal backing and support in the actual law. The only contribution that police should be able to make in this respect is on the question of whether you have good reason to possess an HMR for the purpose of fox destruction. Since that allows for a matter of opinion to decide it (subject to judicial review if you disagree with them) they might reasonably decide that you don't have a good reason to possess one, and suggest a centre fire rifle (which would probably be better suited anyway).

How about you can shoot it all day for a fiver and put it away in the safe without cleaning it? I doubt I've put a patch down the barrel of my CZ more than twice in a season, and it still produces ragged hole groups at fifty yards with eley subs. It even produced a sixty-five yard group of two with stingers that was a centimeter across last week, but I suspect that was a fluke. I'd been sighting it in again after dropping it when I fell into a rabbit warren as the ground gave away and was very annoyed because I couldn't see the holes. I thought I'd missed the target altogether until I walked up and found they were all in the 1 cm black.

That's interesting Noel, but I'm just wondering if such handiwork might effect accuracy. I'd have thought that any minor differences in the placement of the cuts would affect the way the bullet flies, and speaking for myself, I think I'd be almost sure to have variations in the cuts from round to round. Was the bullet already of expanding type - like a hollow point with additional cuts? Where did you hit the foxes? I expect that a .22 in the head at 40 yards would drop them anyway. I've heard of slaughter men dropping dangerous bulls with a .22 when called out to destroy an animal on the farm that was running amok. Special Forces have for some time used silenced sub sonic .22s to quietly kill sentries and guard dogs at close range, and I'm not talking about putting the gun on the head of the target either.

The best thing is that one man made it out of lumps of old iron and a plank of wood. How often is anything ever made like that anymore? A man who can do things like that is a prince among men. Me - I can just about sharpen a stick with a pen knife.

I just had the misfortune of having a farmer and his wife standing over me while I shot at five rabbits this afternoon. Boody awful pressure that. There I am chatting politely near their door after a good afternoon, and she says, 'Look at them (pointing at troop of bunnies sitting about sixty yards off in the sunshine) Go on, get them.' Reluctantly, I loaded the rifle and had to perform with their cheers and then their boos when the pressure got to me, and I missed a couple of shots. 'That's not supposed to happen,' shouts the farmer, 'It's running away'. Cringe.... Some day evil I'll relate my story about the dead lamb bait, Fox and audience in the sheep pen where I was staked out :blink: :yp: That would be a worse pressure, since there is something at stake there if you missed it and scared it off.

I just had the misfortune of having a farmer and his wife standing over me while I shot at five rabbits this afternoon. Boody awful pressure that. There I am chatting politely near their door after a good afternoon, and she says, 'Look at them (pointing at troop of bunnies sitting about sixty yards off in the sunshine) Go on, get them.' Reluctantly, I loaded the rifle and had to perform with their cheers and then their boos when the pressure got to me, and I missed a couple of shots. 'That's not supposed to happen,' shouts the farmer, 'It's running away'. Cringe....

Just shot 43 good sized rabbits this afternoon with the CZ 425. Used stingers on about a third of them and eley subs on the rest. To be honest, the eleys are cheap and very effective up to about 50 yards. They are deadly a lot futher than that, but holdover starts to raise its ugly head. I have the sight set up for the stingers - aim dead on between about 30 and 75 yards. The Eleys hit a lot lower, but I have found that with the scope set on maximum magnification, when the rabbit is between 20 and 50 yards, if I place its head or chest in the 30 30 reticule below the cross just on top of the lower thick vertical post, it's a certain instant kill every time. This lower post thing doesn't work with other magnifications though. I'll need to think of why but I'm too tired just now. I think this will work well for me - subs for nearby; stingers for far off. Certainly sorted a good few today.

That's an interesting question since even with the lowly Stingers, rabbits are pretty well blown up at under 70 yards. Shot some young 'uns the other day at about 50 yards and just aimed at the middle of them. They were blown up with excrement all over the shop - burst right open. I didn't even pick them up they were such a mess. Of course the other thing about the 223 is that apart from its power, it is more or less a flat shooter to way out ranges. After experiencing rabbit shooting with an an air rifle a couple of years back, that is such a luxury.

A comedian might say - Thumb? That's nothing, I know a man who cast and fired his own todger. He thought was great but his wife didn't. She looked at the twelve bore barrel and said to her friend, 'See what I've had o put up wi' all these years.' 'I sympathise, said her friend, 'but look on the bright side. At least he wasn't shooting it out of a 410.'

Reading this takes me back to the 1980s when I was in a club that shot all kinds of repro weapons and most of the guys were reloading 45/70 with black powder and home cast bullets. That kind of shooting was so much fun and interesting to a dabbler like me, although I only ever reloaded .303, and even then I only made about hundred and used a tiny Lee hand tool. It was probably a bit dangerous I always thought as I tapped in the bullet onto a primed and loaded case.

He was firing solid slugs in home loads. One of them just clicked loudly (probably no powder - primer pushed the slug up the tube) and the following shot came up behind a slug stuck in the barrel. This was in the days when you could have five shot pump action guns. He was blazing away with this thing and click (cycle) boom (burst barrel) and really close shave.

I was once standing next to a guy whose twelve bore pump action blew up. There were jagged bits of metal everywhere, mostly, peeled back from the barrel in every direction and fortunately still attached. It was a salutary lesson. It opened up like a banana skin in strips and peeled itself. I will never fool about with any firearm since then. He was making his own slug gun when that happened. It could have done all or any of the things Henry mentioned, and not only to him since I was a yard away from the event.

I remember those days too. I worked on a Saturday job in shop and was paid One pound ten shillings or £1.50 in today's money. The real comparison though anser2 is in what these things cost in the United States. We pay at least double what they do for many gun related products. Deals with single importing companies who become the UK single source, allow massive uncompetitive ripoff. The fact that we may have paid even more than twice the real cost in the past does not mean that today's prices are good value by world standards. UK consumers are often cheated by retailers who price American made products as dollar for pound. You can buy Levi jeans in New York for a tenner that retail here at five times the price. Same issue with European cars as we all know. If you buy your Audi or VW in Germany you can save 25% so it seems. It is time we buyers rose up and stopped the cynical exploitation that has been going on here for more than a generation. We must be stupid to have allowed it for so long.

I agree with you. I went out last night and shot 13 rabbits in a bit over an hour. All of them were at 65 yards and over including an 80 yard off hand shot at a rabbit that died in an instant hit in the chest. I could not do that with the more accurate eley subs because the hold over issue in the late evening becomes harder as you lose distance cues and have to start guessing. They are pretty loud, but even so, I got four adult rabbits from the river bank that were sitting in a field 70 yards from me and thinking that since they couldn't see me, I couldn't be there. Unfortunately for them, I was and they just keeled over stone dead one at a time. The stinger is an instant killer with a chest shot. The heart and lungs are totally smashed by the 1640 fps hollowpoint. That troublesome Irish guy Rick O'Shay is an ever present issue though if the ground is hard. Fortunately after the rain we've had not one did anything but pass through the rabbit and bury itself in the dirt.