lister1 Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 i know that sheep worrying is a terrible thing and perhaps she should have a better lead. but if he is just going to burn the dead sheep illegally then i wouldn't worry about it. she has a right to use the rights of ways nearby and shouldn't feel intimidated by the farmer. i know the farmer must be upset because one of his sheep has died. she did a very honourable thing by going and speaking to the farmer about what had happened. put it dont to a bad day and forget about it. that last thing you want is to upset your neighbours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Should this hobby farmer report the incident to the police they (the police) would be duty bound to investigate the matter. However, without any proof they would be unable to proceed with a prosecution. A caution, which is an admission of guilt, should not be accepted but I doubt the police would take it this far as there is no tangible proof that the incident ever happened. As has been said in the circumstanced described only a court can order the destruction of the puppy and this is not going to happen as there is no proof that the sheep even existed let alone was killed by the puppy. If found guilty the owner or person in charge of the dog would receive a fine and an order to keep the dog under control. Regarding the disposal of the sheep, this is covered by EU/DEFRA legislation which forbids on farm burning of fallen stock. Local authorities are responsible for enforcing the legislation which is usually dealt with by trading standards. Should this chap pursue the matter I would ask the police why he burnt the evidence so quickly (thus breaking the law) and phone trading standards and question his practices. However my advice would be for this good lady to keep a low profile and should this chap contact her or take it further offer your support and be present at any meetings when you could take charge and steer the conversation in the right direction and bring up his unlawful practices thus making him think twice about persuing the matter further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted November 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 (edited) Well, I have just heard today (Tuesday) that another one of his sheep has just keeled over dead. Now SURELY that can't be related to the dog on Saturday night. I feel it points to the fact that either the flock is sickly, or they are not being kept well, but I am not a shepherd, or a vet I wonder how that carcass was disposed of? Edited November 10, 2009 by fullbore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ME Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Damn, I saw the title and thought that this was gonna be a Welsh bashing thread...pffft... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badshot Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 A sheep has only one aim in life and that is to stick it's feet up in the air. No burning or burying allowed, all dead stock to be taken away by licensed knackerman (hunt,or national fallen stock scheme for instance). Very unlikely to be related to the dog incident unless it had been mauled pretty badly, which it apparently hadn't. Trading standards enforce breaches of movements and improper disposal etc. I don't suppose you have access to the carcass? If you do it is very easy to see how old a sheep is by counting it's teeth. It will have eight teeth as a full mouth at somewhere about 5 years old and will lose them as it gets older. It is easy to tell, if the teeth are worn and spindly the ewe is old. Also feel it's back, if you can feel it's spine sticking up like a sharp edge it has been struggling for food and therefore will be in generally poor condition which could have let pneumonia or the like set in. Those very unpopular leccy collars are excellent at stopping dogs worrying, a few shocks from one is all it takes and for ever more the dog will turn and run rather than risk another shock. Once a dog has done it once it will do it again, I know it slipped the collar but it may just have enjoyed the chase enough to try it again. Hobby farmers are nothing but a pain in the backside, I have one locally who does the same and calls me in when the damned things start dieing. Normally to late to do anything by then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted November 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 A sheep has only one aim in life and that is to stick it's feet up in the air. No burning or burying allowed, all dead stock to be taken away by licensed knackerman (hunt,or national fallen stock scheme for instance). Very unlikely to be related to the dog incident unless it had been mauled pretty badly, which it apparently hadn't. Trading standards enforce breaches of movements and improper disposal etc. I don't suppose you have access to the carcass? If you do it is very easy to see how old a sheep is by counting it's teeth. It will have eight teeth as a full mouth at somewhere about 5 years old and will lose them as it gets older. It is easy to tell, if the teeth are worn and spindly the ewe is old. Also feel it's back, if you can feel it's spine sticking up like a sharp edge it has been struggling for food and therefore will be in generally poor condition which could have let pneumonia or the like set in. Those very unpopular leccy collars are excellent at stopping dogs worrying, a few shocks from one is all it takes and for ever more the dog will turn and run rather than risk another shock. Once a dog has done it once it will do it again, I know it slipped the collar but it may just have enjoyed the chase enough to try it again. Hobby farmers are nothing but a pain in the backside, I have one locally who does the same and calls me in when the damned things start dieing. Normally to late to do anything by then. No we don't have access to the carcass, he burned it, and possibly the same thing happened to the one that died today. Have you any ideas of the penalties for improper disposal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 No we don't have access to the carcass, he burned it, and possibly the same thing happened to the one that died today. Have you any ideas of the penalties for improper disposal? You seem to be digging for gold, imagine that the dog was running around with the sheep and the farmer was present with a legally held firearm ? We wouldn`t be having the same conversation would we ? There would be a dead dog and that would be it. Let the owner decide how to proceed, my advice would be by CAB. By trying to drag up anything regarding the owner of the sheep will only entrench any bad feeling, as the onus was on the owner of the dog to keep her dog under control and she didn`t, no if`s, no but`s, no maybe`s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted November 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 You seem to be digging for gold, imagine that the dog was running around with the sheep and the farmer was present with a legally held firearm ? We wouldn`t be having the same conversation would we ? There would be a dead dog and that would be it. Let the owner decide how to proceed, my advice would be by CAB. By trying to drag up anything regarding the owner of the sheep will only entrench any bad feeling, as the onus was on the owner of the dog to keep her dog under control and she didn`t, no if`s, no but`s, no maybe`s. If you call trying to help a person in need digging for gold then that is the case. By "dragging up" as you term it, I am trying to amass evidence to show what sort of a guy he is, and as has been said, sheep are chased/herded by dogs as a matter of course, and will USUALLY only die if ill, which would appear to be the case with the second one dying yesterday. As I said in OP, YES the onus was on her, and she accepts that also, but accidents do happen don't they? As attested by the deaths on the roads. The dog WAS under control on a leash, but the dog slipped it, as far as I can see she had taken every precaution to maintain the control. But an unfortunate accident/failing of the collar occured. If you have managed to get to your current age in life with no accidents you ar very fortunate but having a pop at me through this poor upset woman is ahrdly the done thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 (edited) This puppy I'm guessing though is a similar size to a sheep so potentially more frightning than a sheep dog. Accidents do happen but here the farmer is the one who is suffering and you seem to just want to put the boot in and rake up rumours about him and run to the local council. None of it is proof and really best to just admit it happened and move on and avoid walking that way in the future. had the dog attacked a child we wouldn't be having the same defend the dog and owner conversation Edited November 11, 2009 by al4x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 There is a lot of difference between sheep being herded by a trained sheepdog and being chased by a loose untrained dog. Its an unfortunate fact that sheep do die from stress in these circumstances. Most of this thread is concerned with hearsay and none of us know the full facts. Based on what has been posted, I would suggest that the dog owner is at fault for not having her dog securely on a lead. The landowner is fully justified in being angry at the loss of his sheep (regardless of the circumstances) and the fact he has disposed of it shows he is not taking the matter any further. The dog owner would be best advised to leave things as they are. I live in sheep country and a loose dog in a field with sheep round here has a very short life expectancy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted November 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 (edited) This puppy I'm guessing though is a similar size to a sheep so potentially more frightning than a sheep dog. Accidents do happen but here the farmer is the one who is suffering and you seem to just want to put the boot in and rake up rumours about him and run to the local council. None of it is proof and really best to just admit it happened and move on and avoid walking that way in the future. had the dog attacked a child we wouldn't be having the same defend the dog and owner conversation To try and answer your points, the puppy is not a similar size to the sheep, they are not rumours, because I shoot locally I know members of his staff who have told me of the disposal. The dog DIDN'T attack a child and there is no evidence or suggetion that it would Edited November 11, 2009 by fullbore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted November 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 (edited) There is a lot of difference between sheep being herded by a trained sheepdog and being chased by a loose untrained dog.Its an unfortunate fact that sheep do die from stress in these circumstances. Most of this thread is concerned with hearsay and none of us know the full facts. Based on what has been posted, I would suggest that the dog owner is at fault for not having her dog securely on a lead. The landowner is fully justified in being angry at the loss of his sheep (regardless of the circumstances) and the fact he has disposed of it shows he is not taking the matter any further. The dog owner would be best advised to leave things as they are. I live in sheep country and a loose dog in a field with sheep round here has a very short life expectancy. 1 accepted 2 none of you do know the full facts, and as legal action might be forthcoming I am not disclosing all I know on a open forum 3 yes she is at fault with regard to the first dead , never disputed but just because she is at fault first does not excuse his handling of the matter following that. 4 justified enough to be driving slowly alongside her in his car on her new walking route (following advice to keep clear of his land) staring and making veiled threats? As she had given him her phone number to do the right thing after the event, he has been sending nasty texts I am well aware of the consequences of dog/sheep interfaces, and she has been threatened with all of them, BUT there are consequences for his behaviour also. Perhaps a better way than all the threats would have been "the sheep is dead, I want reimbursing for the sheep and you will also pay the cost of the legal disposal of the carcass, and I think that would have been fair and just But this bloke is a thoroughly unpleaseant man, bullying a single woman, and I despise bullying of any description, hence my involvement Edited November 11, 2009 by fullbore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badshot Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 What you are describing now fullbore is stalking isn't it? If so then she should contact the police if she cannot stand the harassment. She will have to be prepared for the consequences though, after all there is a dead sheep, no evidence but I would not like to guess at how the police will handle a he said, she said scenario. For one thing if he is a gun owner then they will surely take a dim view of him harassing a single female. I do not know off the top of my head the penalties, but if it is a first ( reported ) offence then it would more than likely take the form of a ticking off, either verbally or in written format. Honestly, it sounds like she would do well to avoid the area for a while, as there will be no winners as far as I can see. It seems like both parties have problems which need a bit of time to settle. I doubt if any of that helps, but there you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted November 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Thanks all for the help and constructive advice so far, as I have said, she is now avoiding the land and ensures the collar fits correctly when out walking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcontroller Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 Sheep are on a mission to commit suicide every day, well the ones I keep are FC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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