bicykillgaz Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 i rang my local fire arms department the other day to find out what there stand is now on fox's and if they was classed as vermin and could they be shot with my .22. she said i could send my ticket in with a letter explaining why i wanted it and they could possibly change my conditions to say fox or i could put in for .22-250 which they recommend as foxing rifle. while i was on the phone her system was playing up and was taking its time to load so i read the conditions down the phone to her and the first one is a) for the killing of legal deer species (not sure thats the exact wording my tickets locked in my cabinate) which made me think surely if it capable of killing a small deer it is also capable of killing a fox? so basically i was wondering how small these deer are i'm guessing there smaller than a fox, not that i intend on shooting them before anyone starts about knowing your quarry and you should only use cf's for deer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC45 Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 Some area's allow .22lr for fox, not sure about Deer.. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lez325 Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 223 legal for Muntjac deer only or Roe Deer in Scotland ( not 22.250 thats for Fox) Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 Being as fox is a bit iffy with a .22LR in many areas I very much doubt if there are any type of deer that are legal to shoot with a .22LR in England! Let's see what answers come back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZ550Kevlar Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 223 legal for Muntjac deer only or Roe Deer in Scotland ( not 22.250 thats for Fox) Les .223 is the smallest calibre i have come across for deer and even that`s munjac only, to go larger deer you are loking at .243 upwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magman Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 England and Wales For Muntjac and Chinese Water deer only- a rifle with a minimum calibre of not less than .220 inches and muzzle energy of not less than 1000 foot pounds and a bullet weight of not less than 50 grains may be used. For all deer of any species - a minimum calibre of .240 and minimum muzzle energy of 1,700 foot pounds is the legal requirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicykillgaz Posted February 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 it says on my ticket 'a) the lawful shooting of deer' which to me means there would have to be some sort of legal species or they'd just not put it on, unless it means for humane dispatch but surely that would come under condition c) the humane killing of animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 Gaz it has been legal in Scotland for some years to shoot Roe deer with CENTREFIRE 22. It has been introduced into England to shoot muntjac and Chinese water deer with CENTREFIRE 22 Roe still need fullbore calibres to be used in England. It is not possible to use 22 rimfire on ANY deer species Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M ROBSON Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 They sometimes make mistakes at the firearms department, it's true! They once put on my dad's ticket that he could use his .22 Hornet to shoot Deer (we're in Scotland). This is of course not possible, and the mistake was highlighted and rectified at the next renewal. I wonder how it would stand if you were to be prosicuted due to a mistake on their behalf that you thought was genuine? Cheers, Mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicykillgaz Posted February 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 They sometimes make mistakes at the firearms department, it's true! They once put on my dad's ticket that he could use his .22 Hornet to shoot Deer (we're in Scotland). This is of course not possible, and the mistake was highlighted and rectified at the next renewal. I wonder how it would stand if you were to be prosicuted due to a mistake on their behalf that you thought was genuine? Cheers, Mark. they've had it back once already when i moved and had to change my address wouldn't they have checked it then? i would think i'd probably be shown a bit of mercy by any judge but i wouldn't want to find out to be honest. i thought it seemed weird that i could shoot some form of deer but not fox my dad had fox down for his .22lr and we was living in the same village but his was granted 3 years before me so probably changed since. is it worth me ringing and asking them if its a mistake? when i read it down the phone to her she didn't make anything of it so i didn't want to bring it up and sound cocky so just left it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casts_by_fly Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 doesn't hurt anything being on there, just don't expect to shoot a deer with a 22LR. Next time they have your ticket in hand, ask them to correct it. That said, a 22LR to the brain will kill a deer if necessary. Thanks Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beardo Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 perhaps it means for humane dispatch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 (edited) it says on my ticket 'a) the lawful shooting of deer' which to me means there would have to be some sort of legal species or they'd just not put it on, unless it means for humane dispatch but surely that would come under condition c) the humane killing of animals. Since the Deer Act Amendment, you can "lawfully humanely despatch" ANY deer with (.22lr etc etc), the Deer Act 1991 and Amendments make clear the specific calibres etc etc that can be used for Stalking. Your condition is a misprint/misunderstanding or simply a cock-up! It does not matter what it says on your certificate, the Law of the land takes precidence AND, the Firearms authorities go to great length to tell you to check your certificate and make sure it is correct, once you sign it, (and it is not legally valid until you do), all responsibility for the incorrect entries and any of your subsequent actions are yours and NOT the firearms dept!! In simple terms they can **** up your certificate big time...and it's your fault if you don't get it changed!!! Edited February 6, 2010 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicykillgaz Posted February 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 i had no intentions of shooting deer as i don't like it, but just found it strange that they had listed deer but would not allow fox but its obviously a mistake so not to worry. i think i'll give them a ring to double check anyway seems how things vary from county to county Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicykillgaz Posted February 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 perhaps it means for humane dispatch? that would come under condition 'c) for the humane killing of animals' i would have thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicykillgaz Posted February 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 Since the Deer Act Amendment, you can "lawfully humanely despatch" ANY deer with (.22lr etc etc), the Deer Act 1991 and Amendments make clear the specific calibres etc etc that can be used for Stalking. Your condition is a misprint/misundersatanding or simply a cock-up! It does not matter what it says on your certificate, the Law of the land takes precidence AND, the Firearms authorities go to great length to tell you to check your certificate and make sure it is correct, once you sign it, (and it is not legally valid until you do), all responsibility for the incorrect entries and any of your subsequent actions are yours and NOT the firearms dept!! In simple terms they can **** up your certificate big time...and it's your fault if you don't get it changed!!! as i said i've no intentions of using it on deer so thats not an issue and when i read it down the phone to her no alarm bells went off at her end but i'll ring and clear it up anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 that would come under condition 'c) for the humane killing of animals' i would have thought But ONLY when you are riding your bike :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicykillgaz Posted February 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 But ONLY when you are riding your bike :blink: didn't think you could shoot deer from a moving vehicle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 didn't think you could shoot deer from a moving vehicle you can if you have one foot on the floor like when playing snooker, and I think your famous bike will have an exemption Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicykillgaz Posted February 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 (edited) you can if you have one foot on the floor like when playing snooker, and I think your famous bike will have an exemption what about if i get stunt pegs on the back and my lampman who will be riding has a foot on the foor but mine are both off the foor? Edited February 6, 2010 by bicykillgaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 as i said i've no intentions of using it on deer so thats not an issue and when i read it down the phone to her no alarm bells went off at her end but i'll ring and clear it up anyway It has been a matter of concern to me for many years that a great many people employed in Firearms departments have little or NO knowledge of Firearms legislation, many are simply pen pushers who type forms! The phone was answered at mine a couple of years back by a very pleasant sounding lady, to whom I proceeded to explain my question and after some time she replied...I don't know, I'm an Agency temp, I'm only here for the week...is it any surprise Certificates get cocked up all the time???!!! What gives me even more cause for concern is that I often have to pick up my FEO on legislation when he spouts off incorrectly...perhaps the subject of another thread!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicykillgaz Posted February 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 It has been a matter of concern to me for many years that a great many people employed in Firearms departments have little or NO knowledge of Firearms legislation, many are simply pen pushers who type forms! The phone was answered at mine a couple of years back by a very pleasant sounding lady, to whom I proceeded to explain my question and after some time she replied...I don't know, I'm an Agency temp, I'm only here for the week...is it any surprise Certificates get cocked up all the time???!!! What gives me even more cause for concern is that I often have to pick up my FEO on legislation when he spouts off incorrectly...perhaps the subject of another thread!! when i moved and my new feo came to check the cabinate and have a general get to know each other chat he studied my ticket and never picked up on it either and that was after it been returned to have the adress changed so it's been missed twice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 what about if i get stunt pegs on the back and my lampman who will be riding has a foot on the foor but mine are both off the foor? Depends if you have been in the village post office while armed on the same day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicykillgaz Posted February 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 Depends if you have been in the village post office while armed on the same day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 I think you are confusing your rifle conditions which state what you can use your rifle for with the expanding ammo conditions which state what expanding ammo may be used for provided your rifle conditions permit it. The standard Expanding ammo conditions state. The certificate holder may possess, purchase or acquire expanding ammunition etc..................and use only in connection with. (1) the lawful shooting of deer (2) the shooting of vermin etc. (3)the humane killing of animals (4)the shooting of animals for the protection of other animals or humans. These conditions relate to the use of expanding ammo only and not to your rifle which as I said can only be used for the purposes detailed under your rifle conditions. One should not confuse the two. charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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