Maori Haz Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Dear All, I am inquiring (posh word) about which bore of shotgun i should get, My Dad is getting a 12 bore and he says as im coming up to my fourteenth birthday if i want a shotgun and what bore. Well the problem is if i am going to be shooting for a long time, i will need a 20 bore because its more comfortable, but a 12 bore is better generally, and i used a 12 bore while at a clayshoot in west kent and it hurt as i used it all day, but a 12 is bigger and better and i really don't know what to buy!! Please leave comments, advantages and disadvantages etc. for the guns and general views. Regards, MH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 it hurt as i used it all day, but a 12 is bigger and better and i really don't know what to buy!! Hi M H You don’t say what type of shooting you are intending to use the gun for, is it clays only? And was it the weight of the gun that was the problem or the recoil? Either way both are easily addressed up to a point ie, recoil pad/ recoil buffered semi auto/ physically lighter gun the list goes on A lot depends on budget and personal choice I guess a key element is to take your time it may sound strange but in the end the gun will pick you B) You will pick one up and think yes this is the one, then have a gun fit from a good gun smith. until that time comes don’t part with your (or dads) cash, good luck pavman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 it is generally (not always the case) that a 12bore will be heavier recoiling than a 20bore reason being, a 20bore fires a few grams less lead than a 12bore, at very nearly the same speed, however as the cartridge is often considered one suitable for women, the guns tend to be lighter so basically you have a cartridge nearly the same as a 12 being fired out of a gun which weighs less but as i said, this is not always the case, quite alot of 20bore guns are just a 12bore gun with different barrels, as such they weigh the same, but fire slightly less lead personally i would not have a 20 bore, 12bore when using sensible cartridges 24's or 28's and in a reasonable weight gun, does not bark too bad, but it does have that little bit of extra punch down range, cartridges are easier to get and cheaper ontop of this 20bore is a safety hazard, if you and you dad go shooting, and he loads one of your cartridges by accident, say bye bye to his fingers i would not and do not have a 20bore and 12bore in the same house, ive seen too many guns blown up this way. even if you are very careful where you put the cartridges, you could still slip up one day, its human nature Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Nick’s correct on this, why put 28grms through a 20g and suffer the extra recoil, when you could just use a 12g instead. The 12g is also ballistically superior to the 20g as it uses a “Squarer” load and therefore patterns better. You could go for a nice 16g if you can find one, but at the and of the day 12g cartridges are a hell of a lot cheaper to buy especially if you are shooting loads of shells in a session. I had a play with a friends 28g a couple of weeks ago and was astonished at how much it recoiled. Then he informed me that he was using 21grm (¾ oz) shells , which I thought was bloody daft. Why buy a lovely little 28g and then shoot 21grm shells through it You might just as well use a 12g G.M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardy Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Depending on what & where you are going to shoot you may also consider a semi. An ex girlfriend of mine was keen to join in clay shoooting but was rather frail in build & couldn't hold up a regular 12g so after much experimenting we found that a berretta semi was just the job - lightweight alloy action, shorter barrel & less recoil. We ended up with a 301 which she could comfortably use. She is long gone but I've still got the semi just in case Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordan Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 my little brother is 13 and as skinny as a rake he seriouslty has no muscle on him he shoots an aya s/s 12 using 24gram cartridges no problem as long as you hold the gun right recoil should not be a problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
converse320 Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Whatever you get, make sure its light enough and small enough for you to handle confidently and easily. I convinced myself I needed a 12 too many years ago than I care to remember and shot badly for years because it was too big and cumbersome. By the time I was big enough to have handle it well, I'd sold it. I've now got a 12 and a 20. Recoil differences are not really the issue - the recoil on my 20 is probably harsher if anything than the 12 because the 12s is so much heavier. The most important thing is that is the gun fits you and that you're comfortable with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Whatever you get, make sure its light enough and small enough for you to handle confidently and easily. I convinced myself I needed a 12 too many years ago than I care to remember and shot badly for years because it was too big and cumbersome. By the time I was big enough to have handle it well, I'd sold it. I've now got a 12 and a 20. Recoil differences are not really the issue - the recoil on my 20 is probably harsher if anything than the 12 because the 12s is so much heavier. The most important thing is that is the gun fits you and that you're comfortable with it. cant agree, a light gun is not the answer, a light gun will knock the 7 bells out of you, but as pointed out, a heavy one will be difficult to use shop around, dont be affraid to ask to try a few guns down at clay grounds, see what suits you, and if you get a 12g use a low recoil 24g cartridge i was at your stage a few years back, and the gun i used was an old o/u of my dads, and i fired chevron low recoil cartridges, recoil was worse than my current o/u using standard carts, but it was a good trade off between recoil and handeling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
converse320 Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Light gun and recoil entirely depends on the load. Theres no point in having a gun thats too heavy to use comfortably. Get one you can handle and adjust the load down to something that give a recoil you're happy with. Don't get a gun thats too heavy just to manage the recoil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodmedod.one Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 A general adage is that to minimise recoil, the gun should weigh 6.5 lbs for every 1oz of shot you are firing. All you youngsters can convert that to metric yourself. Personally I would go the 12g route. The comments about going for a semi-auto are valid, as the recoil is significantly reduced. The downside is that you will get a few raised eyebrows if you turn up with it to shoot driven birds or at some clay shoots. Over and unders will cut down on the recoil, but are bloody heavy. Why don't you buy yourself a 26" barrelled side by side such as an AYA No3 or No4? They are light, and won't kick to much with a moderate load. They are also very reliable and cheap to pick up second hand (especially the No3 non ejectors). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the last engineer Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Dear All, I am inquiring (posh word) about which bore of shotgun i should get, My Dad is getting a 12 bore and he says as im coming up to my fourteenth birthday if i want a shotgun and what bore. Well the problem is if i am going to be shooting for a long time, i will need a 20 bore because its more comfortable, but a 12 bore is better generally, and i used a 12 bore while at a clayshoot in west kent and it hurt as i used it all day, but a 12 is bigger and better and i really don't know what to buy!! Please leave comments, advantages and disadvantages etc. for the guns and general views. Regards, MH look for something like the Berreta AL 391 teknys 390 urika semi auto 3" mag chamber 12 gauge why, its a prooven action with the longer chamber for field loads. this in turn will act as longer forcing cones for clay shooting (no busted sholder) the optima barrels are over or back bored,again reducing felt recoil. the stock comes with a selection of shims to adjust the cast drop to suit any shooter. it also has 2 pads to lengthen/shorten pull,the stock is easily cut if nessasary. the EX wood version takes punishment better (eg beating hedges and so on,because you cant find a stick :*) ). it has a selection of chokes to keep your mind boggled as well as anyone else you encounter on a clays day. they are reasanably priced in my opinion and very good value , the gun is an excelant choice for new shooters to start with,allowing you to adjust and to mature into a seasoned safe shooter. Good luck in your choice and let us know what you decide Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodmedod.one Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 MH look for something like the Berreta AL 391 teknys 390 urika semi auto 3" mag chamber 12 gauge why, its a prooven action with the longer chamber for field loads. this in turn will act as longer forcing cones for clay shooting (no busted sholder) the optima barrels are over or back bored,again reducing felt recoil. the stock comes with a selection of shims to adjust the cast drop to suit any shooter. it also has 2 pads to lengthen/shorten pull,the stock is easily cut if nessasary. the EX wood version takes punishment better (eg beating hedges and so on,because you cant find a stick :*) ). it has a selection of chokes to keep your mind boggled as well as anyone else you encounter on a clays day. they are reasanably priced in my opinion and very good value , the gun is an excelant choice for new shooters to start with,allowing you to adjust and to mature into a seasoned safe shooter. Good luck in your choice and let us know what you decide Martin I have got nothing against semi-autos. I've got a Remi 11-87 myself, but if you are only going to have one gun to use for every occasion, you will find that there are places where semi's are as popular as a sausage in a synagogue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 "a sausage in a synagogue" Sure it`s not a pork chop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the last engineer Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 MH look for something like the Berreta AL 391 teknys 390 urika semi auto 3" mag chamber 12 gauge why, its a prooven action with the longer chamber for field loads. this in turn will act as longer forcing cones for clay shooting (no busted sholder) the optima barrels are over or back bored,again reducing felt recoil. the stock comes with a selection of shims to adjust the cast drop to suit any shooter. it also has 2 pads to lengthen/shorten pull,the stock is easily cut if nessasary. the EX wood version takes punishment better (eg beating hedges and so on,because you cant find a stick :*) ). it has a selection of chokes to keep your mind boggled as well as anyone else you encounter on a clays day. they are reasanably priced in my opinion and very good value , the gun is an excelant choice for new shooters to start with,allowing you to adjust and to mature into a seasoned safe shooter. Good luck in your choice and let us know what you decide Martin I have got nothing against semi-autos. I've got a Remi 11-87 myself, but if you are only going to have one gun to use for every occasion, you will find that there are places where semi's are as popular as a sausage in a synagogue. you mean like a bank point taken H DAD , those places are (im glad to say ) few and far between here , i was offering an opinion to a young lad who sounds like he wants to join the happy throng of hunters and target shooting, IMHO i think an auto is a good gun to start any junior shooter with, for reasons posted . Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodmedod.one Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 "a sausage in a synagogue" Sure it`s not a pork chop? they must be more up-market in your area Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry c Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 Why dont you just wait till your dad gets his, then you can try it and see how it suits you then you wont have to make the costly mistake of buying the wrong bore gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maori Haz Posted October 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 Thanks guys, i'm just going to wait until my Dad gets his, then i'll try it out. I'm happy with my 2 airguns atm. Regards and thanks to all who replied! MH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ochre Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 Hmmm Maori, an interesting dilemma with the 12/20 option. This is how I see it: 1. Young boys, and my wife tells me I was a boy once, like big guns so it makes sense that you'd like a big one. 2. Some men like big guns, big ones, and some like 12 bores because they do what everybody else does. 3. Some men shoot well with a 12 bore and see no reason to change for the sake of change alone. 4. Some men that have used 12 bores decide to shoot with 20 bores because they need a lighter gun and are getting on in years like an old sheep. 5. Some men that have used 12 bores decide to shoot with 20 bores because they realise that they are an effective weapon and, due to the reduced number of pellets, appreciate that it takes accuracy to compete with a big man with a big gun. Some might say, that it is a choice a man makes when he wants a challenge and doesn't mind making his own choices in a world where many are afraid of what others think. 6. Few boys decide to miss out these stages because each one is quite fun. If I were you, now I've mulled it over, I'd get a big one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potshot Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 (edited) You have got lots of advice - some good, some bad, some biased and some just plain wrong. What do really want as a fourteen year old learning to shoot? Presumably you're not yet fully adult sized - so medium height, medium weight, medium sized hands. Your probably going to mostly shoot clays at this time and when you've had a bit practise have a go at pigeons and game. So a smaller sized, lighter gun shooting light loads is perfect. You also want a gun that will hold its value so that when you progress you can trade it in. My ideal choice would be a over and under Beretta 686 20g, 28inch barrels with fixed chokes ideally no more than improved cylinder and quarter; or the equivalent Miroku. If the gun you get has multichokes just use the IC and 1/4 and don't be tempted to try the others no matter what anybody else says until you are happy that you are getting good scores. It is far better to learn to shoot straight than spend all day worring about chokes................... Use light 24 gm coaching loads for clays and for the odd outing on game Express make a very good 25 gm game cartridge but choose no5's or 6's. There are lots of other cheaper guns such as the Lincoln and Medallist, which are perfectly adequate, but will not hold their value and may be less reliable mechanically - you always get what you pay for. An over and under is easier to learn with than a side by side, especially as most will be double trigger. There is also a single vertical sight plane and a better feeling of pointability. There is nothing wrong with side by sides it's just easier to start with an over and under and there are lots of good ones about. Semi autos are great guns, but slighlty more complicated and there are safety issues when your are learning to shoot. Also only the better ones will cope with the light loads that you should be starting with. 20 bore semi's are not commonplace and are therefore more expensive secondhand. As already mentioned semi's are not welcomed when game shooting but OK with clays or vermin/pigeons. Best advice of all is to go to a good shotgun coach, have a few lessons, listening to the coach's advice, try a few guns and then, when you are read,y choose your first gun. Edited October 22, 2005 by potshot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 Forget all the above,get yourself a 10bore and use an ounce load in it and you won`t feel a thing You also won`t be able to walk far with it either so it`s perfect for driven days. Did I say I had one for sale?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 I am also surprised at the dismissal of a 20 bore as an option and can assume by some of the comments, that a lot of people have not continuously used one over a few seasons. A 26gm load in a 20 bore, will kill the same as a 28gm load in a 12 bore, in the hands of a competent shooter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High velocity Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 I am sure that all the replies have read your post Maori Haz, but nobody has commented on the fact that you say that you had been shooting for most of the day. We cant judge your size but you say your nearly 14 i would imagine that for a young gun to be shooting for what you say was all day, it would put a strain most older shooters, shoulders would ache and you would feel tired. IMO i would say (if the gun fits) and your happy with using a 12g carry on, you can always use a lighter load until you get used to it, and, grow into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 (edited) I am also surprised at the dismissal of a 20 bore as an option and can assume by some of the comments, that a lot of people have not continuously used one over a few seasons.A 26gm load in a 20 bore, will kill the same as a 28gm load in a 12 bore, in the hands of a competent shooter. and it will also knock him over just as hard so why bother, the cartridges are slightly more expensive and slightly harder to get hold of i cant say for certain i would like, i have only a few hundred rounds under my belt from one, but i saw no advantage over a 12 i was in this lads position only 2 years ago, i did not find a 12 too big, i used both my dads beretta 301 which was quite heavy for me, but very comfortable to use, or i used his o/u vostock, it had a straight hand stock, double triggers, non ejector and had fixed chokes (open and improoved) i shot this gun for a year, got on with it great, i have now moved on, but like to use it every now and then i think if his old man has said he can have a gun, it is unlikely he will be getting a mk70 or beretta, just look around at old guns like lincolns, lanbers, older model miroku's, beretta's they are all fine guns and will suit you fine, if you are a similar buid to what i was, then you will struggle with a heavy sporter gun, but find most field guns fine. as mentioned 24g loads are the way to go, i used 32g for a good 6months before moving to 28g chevrons, what a difference Edited October 22, 2005 by dunganick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 and it will also knock him over just as hard so why bother, the cartridges are slightly more expensive and slightly harder to get hold of i cant say for certain i would like, i have only a few hundred rounds under my belt from one, but i saw no advantage over a 12 With respect Nick, the edited quotes above make my point. You are stating that after limited use of a 20 bore, you have formed this conclusion. I shot a 20 bore from the age of 11 and whilst I was of reasonable build, I was not "big". As my shooting was vermin and game, the cartridge use per outing, was probably less than 25 shots. I was happy carrying the lighter gun and the recoil was comfortable. I also had the occasional use of a 12 bore (Baikal), which I had to use when given 12 bore cartridges by the Farmers. This I used mainly from hides, as it was a fair old weight to lug around. I also made sure I had an extra jumper on. If I was going out to shoot 100 sporting clays at that age, I would have wanted the 20 bore. One of our Syndicate Members shoots a 20 bore with 26 gm loads and takes high pheasants that 12 bore users miss. Its not just the gun, its also the shooter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the last engineer Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 totaly agree with you Cranfield the 20 gauge is a well prooven gun/load combo and should not be dismissed so readily . to quote good bad and indifferent opinions "Semi autos are great guns, but slighlty more complicated and there are safety issues when your are learning to shoot. Also only the better ones will cope with the light loads that you should be starting with. 20 bore semi's are not commonplace and are therefore more expensive secondhand" to disect this statement 1st if you were to look into the workings of a semi to an over under, the complexity of a semi is nowhere near that of a break open gun ,as an example you could compare a petrol engine to a sloppy deisel the later being the semi . 2nd safety issues,please explain to an obvious rookie in shotgunning as to what makes one gun more dangerous than any other, and dont say it wont open :< it ticks me off if the correct training and control is shown and given there is no difference ,please stop differentiating between guns ,they are all designed to shoot, its the missuse that needs fixing not the guns . 3rd 20 gauge are avery common gun and not as stated by a few as knock you on your *** guns , I have trained many junior shooters on a 20 gauge woman as well none of them complained of recoil bruising or being hit around,start with the right combo and get it right the first time. just a rookies opinion, not trying to pick a fight with verteran shooters Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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