al4x Posted May 19, 2010 Report Share Posted May 19, 2010 Mr Logic's point is actually pretty good on this and also something to bear in mind is licenses last 5 years and FEO's often don't so you end up with a few opinions on the subject not necessarily the issuing FEO. Fundamentally also mentioned is you are open to cruelty charges if you are stupid about it, but as said your ticket includes conditions and if it has vermin on I'd be fine with it. Herts it seems also go against Kudubyas guidelines as I've now since going for centrefire got fox against both HMR and .223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted May 19, 2010 Report Share Posted May 19, 2010 (edited) which list would this be kdubya? when two feo's interviewed me about getting my hmr in march they told me the psni have no official position on fox calibres; i told them i wanted an hmr for rabbits and foxes and there was no problem with it. also my licence has always just said "for sporting purpose and vermin control", it doesnt specify individual quarry, and i've yet to see a northern ireland fac that does, they all seem to have the same wording :blink: Ozzy, This is the link to the calibre guidance for enquiry officers by BASC. BASC Edited May 19, 2010 by kyska Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted May 19, 2010 Report Share Posted May 19, 2010 (edited) and it says 22lr is ok out to about 50 yards with a clean headshot. interesting... :blink: thing is though that link is only guidance by basc, not law Edited May 19, 2010 by Ozzy Fudd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted May 19, 2010 Report Share Posted May 19, 2010 and it says 22lr is ok out to about 50 yards with a clean headshot. interesting... :blink: thing is though that link is only guidance by basc, not law Oh, definately, I just posted it out of interest, I don't think there is any legal document available regarding calibre restrictions, not what I can find anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Mc Posted May 19, 2010 Report Share Posted May 19, 2010 I recently was talking about similar conditions..the lawful quarry.. Ive had my FAC now almost 15 yrs..and like the rest of the shooters in the uk,who have this condition,, i would like the condition of lawful quarry put on, so when i get home in june will be enquiring..but as im with cheshire not building my hopes up. Its wrong that i can take a mate foxing on my land or he take me.we both have same cal rifles..he can shoot any lawful quarry..so if the farmer says i also want the rabbits shooting..yes with 223 or whatever cal.. my mate can yet i cant..all because of the condition on my 223. It should all be the same country wide not where you live like the NHS lottery postcode. Funny a mate in cheshire asked about shot placement on a deer with ref to them stating he has a mentor..yet he can shoot fox without a mentor..which is critical as he knows..but cheshire said it doesnt matter where you shoot a fox as its VERMIN..now thats wrong and every shot on a animal should be well placed for a clean kill.. Even funnier is ive just gone on a other forum and had a mess of a Chap from BASC saying that in the last week what im after ,the condition lawful quarry...and cheshire He just sent this....... I don't know where you are with your complaint about Cheshire so far, but you may find that things have changed in the last week or two - in your favour So we will see when im home...but still conditions should be country wide and same for everyone. Mick......RANT OVER Mick, I spoke to Cheshire a couple of days ago regarding conditions. As a force, they said they chose not to adopt the new wording of "any other lawful quarry" as I was trying to get them added to my deer rifles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted May 19, 2010 Report Share Posted May 19, 2010 Oh, definately, I just posted it out of interest, I don't think there is any legal document available regarding calibre restrictions, not what I can find anyway. so again it comes down to individual dept's :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted May 19, 2010 Report Share Posted May 19, 2010 Yes it does, but that's the law. Cheshire are within their rights not to adopt the new wording, better that than to adopt it and then say you still can't shoot a fox with HMR, which is then wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted May 19, 2010 Report Share Posted May 19, 2010 which list would this be kdubya? when two feo's interviewed me about getting my hmr in march they told me the psni have no official position on fox calibres; i told them i wanted an hmr for rabbits and foxes and there was no problem with it. also my licence has always just said "for sporting purpose and vermin control", it doesnt specify individual quarry, and i've yet to see a northern ireland fac that does, they all seem to have the same wording ok here is the home office guidelines for suitability Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted May 20, 2010 Report Share Posted May 20, 2010 You are missing the point - they are guidelines only. They are not legally binding and forces do not have to follow them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted May 20, 2010 Report Share Posted May 20, 2010 ok here is the home office guidelines for suitability yep GUIDELINES, not law. also what does suitability mean? it says .223 isnt suitable for rabbits, its hardly due to it not being powerful enough! ps if you look at the rimfire section it says .17 remington and .22 hornet ARE suitable for foxes, so surely that means hmr is suitable as well and that firearms dept's are actually ignoring the guidelines and making and up their own rules if they refuse to give it to you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted May 20, 2010 Report Share Posted May 20, 2010 both those are centrefires Ozzy, It has been superceeded though as you say they are now less concerned with overkill and I know by the looks of it I shouldn't have most of my conditions judging by that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted May 20, 2010 Report Share Posted May 20, 2010 (edited) both those are centrefires Ozzy, It has been superceeded though as you say they are now less concerned with overkill and I know by the looks of it I shouldn't have most of my conditions judging by that sorry i really shouldnt come on here with a hangover, not making myself clear; i meant that if theyre ok then a hmr should be ok too Edited May 20, 2010 by Ozzy Fudd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted May 20, 2010 Report Share Posted May 20, 2010 I would not want to see HMR on the list of suitable fox calibres. I Would not want Good Reason for HMR to be fox control, because it's not a fox round. It is a rabbit round, and will kill Charlie in the right cirumstances. In terms of comparison with 17 rem and 22 Hornet, HMR is under half their energy, it's a tiny little round when compared with either. Remember the guidelines are for people who don't know what any of this is, they have to be general. That is precisely why each case should be discussed on merit, which is what is in the firearms acts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted May 20, 2010 Report Share Posted May 20, 2010 Exactly it does the job nicely but isn't a fox gun. However when safety is paramount you can kill foxes with it that you wouldn't want to fire a centrefire at. This is why certainly my force put the onus on you they don't exclude foxes on HMR's so it is up to you to make a humane shot. After all in theory if you took it all too literally you wouldn't be able to despatch a snared for with a rimfire at 5 yards and personally I wouldn't want to do that job with a centrefire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted May 20, 2010 Report Share Posted May 20, 2010 You are missing the point - they are guidelines only. They are not legally binding and forces do not have to follow them. If forces don't follow guidelines then whats the point of them, if your up in front of a man with a big wig due to you "not following guidelines" see which road he will take when proportioning blame, he wont say I agree I think you did alright ignoring them? just pop out and have a nice day. so if you want to shoot fox get the proper tool for the job, don't billy bodge it. KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted May 20, 2010 Report Share Posted May 20, 2010 (edited) why is it billybodging it Kudubya whats the difference between my HMR with fox written on it and someone elses that doesn't? and thats before you start on whether its a FAC holders responsibility to decide whether something that is clearly vermin isn't for licensing purposes. Like many things in law its as clear as mud but that seems to help both sides have a bit of leeway. certainly its not been in court to be defined which says something to me Edited May 20, 2010 by al4x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted May 20, 2010 Report Share Posted May 20, 2010 If forces don't follow guidelines then whats the point of them, if your up in front of a man with a big wig due to you "not following guidelines" see which road he will take when proportioning blame, he wont say I agree I think you did alright ignoring them? just pop out and have a nice day. so if you want to shoot fox get the proper tool for the job, don't billy bodge it. KW I shoot foxes with Hornet upwards, but I have shot them with everything from 22LR up. It works fine. Guidelines are guidelines - they are a useful tool for general reference They are not specific - firearms law states each case must be considered from the point of view of the applicant - i.e. each case, not generalisation. Therefore, guidelines can be overruled without any major issue - if the circumstances warrant. For example, if I go to teh police and say i want a 17HMR as my main fox tool and I shoot on 3000 acres of farm, they'll tell me to get a proper gun. If I go to them and say I want a 17HMR for use on small farms, for minimal noise and close shots, again for fox, then they SHOULD (not all do!) grant it as it suits my individual circumstance, despite not being on your all-important table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted May 20, 2010 Report Share Posted May 20, 2010 I shoot foxes with Hornet upwards, but I have shot them with everything from 22LR up. It works fine. Guidelines are guidelines - they are a useful tool for general reference They are not specific - firearms law states each case must be considered from the point of view of the applicant - i.e. each case, not generalisation. Therefore, guidelines can be overruled without any major issue - if the circumstances warrant. For example, if I go to teh police and say i want a 17HMR as my main fox tool and I shoot on 3000 acres of farm, they'll tell me to get a proper gun. If I go to them and say I want a 17HMR for use on small farms, for minimal noise and close shots, again for fox, then they SHOULD (not all do!) grant it as it suits my individual circumstance, despite not being on your all-important table. trouble is the likes of Cleveland will NOT sanction anything other than those calibres on the list, believe me I have tried to get .17 hmr accepted as being capable in certain circunstances but they say No its not on so you cant have it, so I wont argue anyway it gave good reason for .223 and .243 KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted May 20, 2010 Report Share Posted May 20, 2010 The only thing you can guarantee in the Fox/Vermin debate is that there is ....CONFUSION!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted May 20, 2010 Report Share Posted May 20, 2010 But what is the wording on your fac? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted May 20, 2010 Report Share Posted May 20, 2010 trouble is the likes of Cleveland will NOT sanction anything other than those calibres on the list, believe me I have tried to get .17 hmr accepted as being capable in certain circunstances but they say No its not on so you cant have it, so I wont argueanyway it gave good reason for .223 and .243 KW .17HMR is NOT on the list at all! Neither are a lot of other calibres, it is meant to be a guide!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted May 20, 2010 Report Share Posted May 20, 2010 Neither is Canada Goose, Doesn't seem to stop some people Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted May 20, 2010 Report Share Posted May 20, 2010 Neither is Canada Goose, Doesn't seem to stop some people What a *****. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmax55 Posted May 20, 2010 Report Share Posted May 20, 2010 Fact is like it or not HMR is not on the list as being "suitable for fox" all issuing forces go by the same list, they dont just pick suitability out of the air as some on here seem to think, so if say your feo says its ok he is actually breaching the guidelines, my fac states the calibre's I CAN shoot fox with, fox is stated clearly and its not classed as vermin, my force Cleveland will NOT put fox against HMR I even know of fox being removed from someones license as it was "put on by mistake" yes I know hmr is effective, but its still does not stop the fact hmr is as per calibre guidelines "unsuitable" KW heres my ten pence worth. im under west mercia constabulary and my hmr is fox and vermin control as is my .223. whoever says the hmr is unsuitable for foxes is completely wrong. this week alone i have had 2 vixens 1 dog and 5 cubs all shot around 120yds with the hmr it is a more than capable little round and has accounted for most of the foxes i shot this year. all you need is good field craft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted May 20, 2010 Report Share Posted May 20, 2010 What a *****. I see you are your usual self then Mark. (Insert smilie shaking the coffee beans here) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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