Gun Safety

[partridge60]

http://www.eveningstar.co.uk/news/woman_sh...e_knee_1_267996

 

Another tragic accident which has happened whilst pigeon shooting. Fortunately the person at fault has appropriate insurance cover I am told but surely basic gun safety would have prevented this accident.

Such accidents have happened in the past, with fatal results, in at least one case.

Please Please check all your gun handling procedures to ensure that there is no problem with your safety. A few minutes may save injury or worse.

[mossy835]

it goes to show how care full you have to be,

[Highlander]

It’s (unfortunately) just another accident that happens to be ‘shooting’ related! Accidents happen and just like you can’t legislate for nutters you can’t legislate for accidents.

[partridge60]

It’s (unfortunately) just another accident that happens to be ‘shooting’ related! Accidents happen and just like you can’t legislate for nutters you can’t legislate for accidents.

I believe that this happened as the gun was closed in a hide. If this is the case, whilst not deliberate, the gun should not have been pointed in a direction which could cause injury to any other person.

Basic gun safety issue and avoidable.

Double check your safety and gun handling.

[KFC]

http://www.anesi.com/accdeath.htm

 

I found this link which helps put things in proportion.

I know it's an old report but it is from the US, a gun owning nation.

[wymberley]

OK, guys, confused here. There can't be 2 virtually identical "accidents" in the same area and involving the same hospital, surely. The OP ref. says a woman was shot. Anyone read July's Sporting Gun? There is a piece by a member of NOBS who shot a mate, a male, called Will. Having read both pieces, it has to be the same incident and if so the tale has an interesting twist.

Cheers

[partridge60]

Donrt read sporting gun, prefer on line forums as more up to date.

Dont believe the two incidents are the same in which case just as well that NOBS has insurance via its tie up with SACS as that lot seem to be "accident" prone.

Any incident where some one is shot IS NOT AN ACCIDENT.

Bad and sloppy gun handling is inexcusable and if an innocent party is shot then the perpetrator should have their guns removed for life as they are NOT SAFE.

There are enough people against gun ownership without shooting ourselves in the foot so to speak.

[humperdingle]

It’s (unfortunately) just another accident that happens to be ‘shooting’ related! Accidents happen and just like you can’t legislate for nutters you can’t legislate for accidents.

In the same way, you can't legislate for stupidity.

[claypop]

http://www.eveningstar.co.uk/news/woman_sh...e_knee_1_267996

 

Another tragic accident which has happened whilst pigeon shooting. Fortunately the person at fault has appropriate insurance cover I am told but surely basic gun safety would have prevented this accident.

Such accidents have happened in the past, with fatal results, in at least one case.

Please Please check all your gun handling procedures to ensure that there is no problem with your safety. A few minutes may save injury or worse.

 

A gun safety course should be part of getting a licence. It is in place in other countries & is common sense. It would also be in the favour of all shooters as it could then be stated all gun owners have been

safety trained. This in particular to public opinion would be benificial.

[berettaman]

Are you proposing the same safety training as i had in the army where people who handled their guns either stupidly or without thought got a good kick in the back by the range staff ? if you are then i have already witnessed that so i will pass on your course thanks (now thats safety training) BM

 

I can see where you are all coming from but ask yourself ,where does it all end,theres only so much legislation and training you can do and no matter how insistent you are that there should be this and there should be that at the end of the day accidents will happen,trouble is now everybody lives the american dream of"where theres blame theres a claim"and the police only ever think someones actions are deliberate so in their eyes there is no such thing as an accident ,see where im going with this BM

Edited June 6, 2010 by berettaman

[CharlieT]

A gun safety course should be part of getting a licence. It is in place in other countries & is common sense. It would also be in the favour of all shooters as it could then be stated all gun owners have been

safety trained. This in particular to public opinion would be benificial.

 

 

Driving instruction and testing does not stop accidents nor does it stop people driving like idiots. We are all human and as such fallible therefore I'm afraid accidents will and do happen and no amount of training will stop it.

 

Shooting accidents are very rare and this fact reflects what a sensible and careful bunch of sportsmen we are.

[wymberley]

Driving instruction and testing does not stop accidents nor does it stop people driving like idiots. We are all human and as such fallible therefore I'm afraid accidents will and do happen and no amount of training will stop it.

 

Shooting accidents are very rare and this fact reflects what a sensible and careful bunch of sportsmen we are.

Yep. Those people who want to drive like idiots have to take a driving test (exceptions prove the rule) in order to qualify to do so. Passing that test is no more than a means to an end.

Our system of voluntary education is far superior in that those who do partake do so because they want to and as a result learn and take on board the lessons learnt. It will only fall apart if those oportunities are not taken advantage of and our safety record takes a plunge: Then we're in trouble of our own making.

Cheers

[fortune82]

Yep. Those people who want to drive like idiots have to take a driving test (exceptions prove the rule) in order to qualify to do so. Passing that test is no more than a means to an end.

Our system of voluntary education is far superior in that those who do partake do so because they want to and as a result learn and take on board the lessons learnt. It will only fall apart if those oportunities are not taken advantage of and our safety record takes a plunge: Then we're in trouble of our own making.

Cheers

 

As I mentioned on a thread weeks ago I too feel there should be some form of compulsory training. Over the past few years I have come into contact with several people who were completely unsafe due to a lack of basic training.

 

Yes people still drive like idiots and have accidents but Im sure there would be far more accidents if there was no driving test.

[HDAV]

In other sports where there is a significant 3rd party danger you can't get insurance without taking a voluntary safety course and test as its voluntary the individual covers the cost the provider is a private 3Rd party which supplies courses designed by an indepenant body, Most places require proof of insurance before your allowed out.

 

I am of course taking about power boats and Personal watercraft. I have read about shoots in Germnay where you must present your insurance before being allowed to take a stand (let alone fire a shot) I can't believe that this isn't required already! I would love to see the NRA, CPSA, BASC get together and offer some courses be they at rnages, clay grounds or in the field (for water its a different test for Coastal, inland and open water) you will never stop incidents and accidents but you can do everything to prevent them!

 

Let's all show the antis (and the clueless rag readers) some professionalism, I am not talking of a course purely on safety but on the whole aspect of gun ownership.

 

For Shotguns lets have a training course on the different types, proof marks and their meaning, Chokes and cartridge sizes, effective quarry types and loads, effective and safe ranges, good field craft and etiquette. For many people who come from none shooting families and backgrounds lets have some help rather than being tutted at "by those in the know"

 

To all of those who scoff at the idea of training "because you have been doing it for 30 years, it doesn't mean you have been doing right!, and if you have lets see you stand up and offer your time to teach the courses develop the materials and help those that are interested learn more and spread the word to more people to ensure the sport has a future despite the actions of some.

 

I don't mean to preach but i am fairly sure positive action needs to be taken

[sitsinhedges]

In other sports where there is a significant 3rd party danger you can't get insurance without taking a voluntary safety course and test as its voluntary the individual covers the cost the provider is a private 3Rd party which supplies courses designed by an indepenant body, Most places require proof of insurance before your allowed out.

 

I am of course taking about power boats and Personal watercraft. I have read about shoots in Germnay where you must present your insurance before being allowed to take a stand (let alone fire a shot) I can't believe that this isn't required already! I would love to see the NRA, CPSA, BASC get together and offer some courses be they at rnages, clay grounds or in the field (for water its a different test for Coastal, inland and open water) you will never stop incidents and accidents but you can do everything to prevent them!

 

Let's all show the antis (and the clueless rag readers) some professionalism, I am not talking of a course purely on safety but on the whole aspect of gun ownership.

 

For Shotguns lets have a training course on the different types, proof marks and their meaning, Chokes and cartridge sizes, effective quarry types and loads, effective and safe ranges, good field craft and etiquette. For many people who come from none shooting families and backgrounds lets have some help rather than being tutted at "by those in the know"

 

To all of those who scoff at the idea of training "because you have been doing it for 30 years, it doesn't mean you have been doing right!, and if you have lets see you stand up and offer your time to teach the courses develop the materials and help those that are interested learn more and spread the word to more people to ensure the sport has a future despite the actions of some.

 

I don't mean to preach but i am fairly sure positive action needs to be taken

 

 

Yep, another sodding course, that's all we need

[CharlieT]

But why does positive action need to be taken.

 

Shooting IS a safe sport with such a negligible accident rate it's not worth talking about. In fact could someone point out to me a sport that is safer.

 

Do you really think that the insurance providers would cover the risk at such extremely low premiums if it was a high risk sport.

 

Where on earth do you people who think shooting is dangerous get your information from, the Gun Control Network. It's ridiculous to compare a pigeon shooter with power boats and jet ski users charging at high speed around crowded coastal waters where people pop up out of the water.

As for courses for proof marks and chokes.............I've heard it all now, if people are that thick that they can't read a book or ask someone then they should be put to sleep because they will never make their way in this world.

 

Our shooting organisations are fortunately following their members wishes and I am pleased to say totally against such ridiculous ideas.

 

Would someone please point out to me where all these accidents happen.

 

I thought we had rid ourselves of the Nanny State with the demise of the last government.

[wymberley]

In other sports where there is a significant 3rd party danger you can't get insurance without taking a voluntary safety course and test as its voluntary the individual covers the cost the provider is a private 3Rd party which supplies courses designed by an indepenant body, Most places require proof of insurance before your allowed out.

 

I am of course taking about power boats and Personal watercraft. I have read about shoots in Germnay where you must present your insurance before being allowed to take a stand (let alone fire a shot) I can't believe that this isn't required already! I would love to see the NRA, CPSA, BASC get together and offer some courses be they at rnages, clay grounds or in the field (for water its a different test for Coastal, inland and open water) you will never stop incidents and accidents but you can do everything to prevent them!

 

Let's all show the antis (and the clueless rag readers) some professionalism, I am not talking of a course purely on safety but on the whole aspect of gun ownership.

 

For Shotguns lets have a training course on the different types, proof marks and their meaning, Chokes and cartridge sizes, effective quarry types and loads, effective and safe ranges, good field craft and etiquette. For many people who come from none shooting families and backgrounds lets have some help rather than being tutted at "by those in the know"

 

To all of those who scoff at the idea of training "because you have been doing it for 30 years, it doesn't mean you have been doing right!, and if you have lets see you stand up and offer your time to teach the courses develop the materials and help those that are interested learn more and spread the word to more people to ensure the sport has a future despite the actions of some.

 

I don't mean to preach but i am fairly sure positive action needs to be taken

Well said. For us live quarry shotgun types what you're suggesting has been out there courtesy of BASC for 30 years. Had all been well, it would have been complemented on a similar basis for rifles and air rifles. It was called the Proficiency Award Scheme and is just being replaced by the PLQS (current S&C, page36). Originally it was dirt cheap because it was run at county level by fully trained volunteers and as you suggest it was brought into being because many new shooters were not coming from a family shooting background. Heaven knows what this replacement will cost and the likelyhood of anyone doing anything for nowt now-a-days is somewhat slim.

I hear what sitsinhedges is saying, but the important thing is that it is available for those who wish to partake.

Cheers

[claypop]

Are you proposing the same safety training as i had in the army where people who handled their guns either stupidly or without thought got a good kick in the back by the range staff ? if you are then i have already witnessed that so i will pass on your course thanks (now thats safety training) BM

 

I can see where you are all coming from but ask yourself ,where does it all end,theres only so much legislation and training you can do and no matter how insistent you are that there should be this and there should be that at the end of the day accidents will happen,trouble is now everybody lives the american dream of"where theres blame theres a claim"and the police only ever think someones actions are deliberate so in their eyes there is no such thing as an accident ,see where im going with this BM

 

I agree it is yet more legislation & I,m totally against more nanny state moves but with a media-driven public & hence government policies (hopefully not as much now Labour is out) it's a great soundbite we could always

use to defend ourselves. ie "We are all police vetted & have been through gun safety training". Some 'ammo' if you like (pardon the pun!)

 

I also feel it might benefit some though I agree most licence holders have more than enough common sense but the image aspect of a very simple one-off 2-3 hour course would, in my opinion, pay dividends with respect to a not very

gun-savvy public/media.

 

 

 

Just a thought...

Edited June 6, 2010 by claypop

[HDAV]

But why does positive action need to be taken.

 

Shooting IS a safe sport with such a negligible accident rate it's not worth talking about. In fact could someone point out to me a sport that is safer.

 

Do you really think that the insurance providers would cover the risk at such extremely low premiums if it was a high risk sport.

 

Where on earth do you people who think shooting is dangerous get your information from, the Gun Control Network. It's ridiculous to compare a pigeon shooter with power boats and jet ski users charging at high speed around crowded coastal waters where people pop up out of the water.

As for courses for proof marks and chokes.............I've heard it all now, if people are that thick that they can't read a book or ask someone then they should be put to sleep because they will never make their way in this world.

 

Our shooting organisations are fortunately following their members wishes and I am pleased to say totally against such ridiculous ideas.

 

Would someone please point out to me where all these accidents happen.

 

I thought we had rid ourselves of the Nanny State with the demise of the last government.

 

Charlie don't get me wrong I know shooting is very safe and 99.9999999999% of shooters are perfectly safe and able, there is of course the 0.00000000001% which attracts media attention I am new to clay shooting having been an airgun shooter in my youth. I am not an anti, but while rare anything involving an accident and a gun will grab media headlines this will of course skew the public view, as most shooting goes unnoticed (vermin shooting is obviously away from public attention as is stalking, Clay grounds are normally fairly well hidden and out of site, rifle ranges more so in many parts the general public has little or no contact with shooters, I took a group of none shooting friends to a clay ground and all had a great time 53 had never shot clays before 2 once at a stag event and one who used to hunt with his grandfather in the states. thats 5 more people who now know how where and why people own shotguns.

 

I don't agree that the parallel between power boats and jetski's is ridiculous, Jet skis are a minority sport that grew very quickly and angered/outraged a lot of people then there were some high profile accidents (not many! mind) which resulted in large compensation claims. It now means that jetskis are banned from a lot places (lakes, slipways etc) while people pop out of the water, they also pop off footpaths, get lost and chase after dogs. I really hope it never happens, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do everything we can to prevent it.

[CharlieT]

HDAV

 

Whilst I take on board all you say, I truly do not believe that compulsory testing would lead to a safer shooting environment. Perhaps I am a little old school in that anything that smacks "compulsory state intervention" just goes against the grain unless it can be proven by fact that it is justifiably required. There is no such evidence that such a course of action should be followed.

 

New entrants to the sport of shooting all have access to "best practice" guides and some form of informal or formal instruction or mentorship. BASC and many others offer courses on everything from setting snares, shotgun shooting and rifle shooting to stalking and food hygiene. The proof houses do instructional tours and most clay shooting grounds give lessons. Many shooters like myself have and will take youngsters and the not so young under their wing and mentor them, game shoots love to take on beaters where a lot can be learned and like minded friends made. The list is endless.

 

More can be learned from the above then any amount of compulsory testing will ever teach and what's more much of it is free and jolly good fun. The only problem with much of it is you don't get government approved certificate at the end saying you now know it all.

 

All the best

 

Charlie

[partridge60]

HDAV

 

Whilst I take on board all you say, I truly do not believe that compulsory testing would lead to a safer shooting environment. Perhaps I am a little old school in that anything that smacks "compulsory state intervention" just goes against the grain unless it can be proven by fact that it is justifiably required. There is no such evidence that such a course of action should be followed.

 

New entrants to the sport of shooting all have access to "best practice" guides and some form of informal or formal instruction or mentorship. BASC and many others offer courses on everything from setting snares, shotgun shooting and rifle shooting to stalking and food hygiene. The proof houses do instructional tours and most clay shooting grounds give lessons. Many shooters like myself have and will take youngsters and the not so young under their wing and mentor them, game shoots love to take on beaters where a lot can be learned and like minded friends made. The list is endless.

 

More can be learned from the above then any amount of compulsory testing will ever teach and what's more much of it is free and jolly good fun. The only problem with much of it is you don't get government approved certificate at the end saying you now know it all.

 

All the best

 

Charlie

I had no intention of compulsory or voluntary testing when I made my original post which has now drifted off topic. Shooting is byaand large safe but each season beaters report shot passing by, several people are actually shot when decoying pigeons so we all need to reappraise our safety handling.

In this particular incident I believe that the accident was avoidable, I am advised that the person at fault should have known better but we could all be in the same position, especially in the heat of the moment.

[David BASC]

In my view, courses, codes of best practice, and mentoring are all great ways to learn the ropes of a new skill such as shooting, but a course alone cannot be the answer if it is only theory based, and only gives you a start as it were, practice makes perfect!

 

Clubs and shooting grounds most certianly have a roll to play to deliver local support to those what want it in my view.

 

I think courses should be available for those who want or need then but must not become compulsory - yes I know it is a fine line to tread as we have discussed many times before on this forum.

 

I am not too sure of all the details, but it sounds like the 'two shooters in a hide' situation - almost all of the shooting accidents in pigeon shooting where some other person has been injured (as opposed to property ) have been when two people are in a hide.

 

My advice- dont do it!

 

Having said all that, all the courses, mentoring and best practice guides in the world will not stop every accident.

 

David

[HDAV]

HDAV

 

Whilst I take on board all you say, I truly do not believe that compulsory testing would lead to a safer shooting environment

 

Never mentioned that it should be compulsory with boats you can buy one without the testing just try and use it somewhere! I don't think it should be compulsory but i do think it should be industry backed and approved (note industry not government!) and it should be fun, enjoyable and teach more than just safety....

 

While the informal options are available to some, not to all, apart from having lessons at a clay ground I personally have been offered nothing else, I have contacted several organisations about courses and so far nothing has been forthcoming.

Edited June 7, 2010 by HDAV

[wymberley]

Hi, Been following this mainly in the hope that someone may be able to explain whether it was one or two "accidents" just out of interest.

HDAV has not mentioned the dreaded word 'compulsory' except to point out that he hadn't; he only said positive action which Charlie, who in MHO otherwise makes perfect sense, questioned the need for. Surely, the opposite takes us downhill all the way. I don't think that our organisations following their members' wishes is always a good idea. Under certain circumstances I believe that they should take the lead. Now, at the moment all appears well, but let's take the not impossible worst case scenario whereby we have a couple of nasty accidents which hit the headlines. No one is going to question 400,000 shooters; no, the powers that be will look at the work of our major representative organisations and if they cannot satisfy those powers that they are doing all that is deemed necessary then we are in trouble big time. Consequently, BASC et al are right in providing the courses that they do. At the end of the day, it is down to us if we make use of them.

Cheers