28gm 7.5's for woodies?

[poontang]

The point that is relevant, that neither of you have grasped, or maybe deliberately avoided, is that there will be an optimum length that allows all, or most of the shot to be sorted into a parallel coloumn. Any barrel shorter than that optimum will result in a wider spread as some of the shot may leave the barrel at an angle to it. Once you get longer than that optimum length it will not matter as much as most of the individual pellets will be travelling parallel to each other.

 

So, unless you have specialist ballistics knowledge backed up by research, it doesn't matter how much you fiddle with calculations on your mobile phone, or how many figures after the decimal points your answer is, it's all bullocks!

 

So are you saying that you can tell the difference in pattern, at range, using guns with barrels 2" shorter/longer in length? Are you saying that you personally can see and utilize that extra couple of mm spread? Or are you agreeing with me that the difference is so minute as to be totally irrelevant?

 

How does your 'parallel column' theory work with plastic wad cartridges?

 

Not so straight cut eh?

 

You really should get a Nokia..............for ballistic calculations they're the mutts nuts!!

[UKPoacher]

So are you saying that you can tell the difference in pattern, at range, using guns with barrels 2" shorter/longer in length? Are you saying that you personally can see and utilize that extra couple of mm spread? Or are you agreeing with me that the difference is so minute as to be totally irrelevant?

 

How does your 'parallel column' theory work with plastic wad cartridges?

 

Not so straight cut eh?

 

You really should get a Nokia..............for ballistic calculations they're the mutts nuts!!

 

No. Once again you try and cloud the issue to cover your earlier comments.

 

Well, i'm no mathematician but i've been doing some number crunching

 

Using a 1/4 choke and at 40yards the spread is roughly 48"

 

Assuming a uniform rate of spread over this distance and using the calculator function on my 'phone i have deduced that for every 1" of spread the shot must travel 30".

 

Therefore for every inch of travel the shot spreads at a rate of 0.03333", so if you're using 28" barrels as opposed to 30" barrels you have an extra 0.06666" spread of shot at 40 yards.

 

Good luck if you can see the difference, though i suspect, like most things in shooting, it's all in the head.

 

You are assuming that the shot spreads evenly independent on the length of the barrel. It is not that simple. Apart from other considerations such as velocity, shot size, type of wad etc; all things being equal there is the factor I mentioned about the optimum barrel length. By your calculations a 2" barrel would only spread around 1" more than a 32" barrel and a 62" barrel would tighten the spread by another inch over the 32" length. That is nonsense!

 

I suggest that no one on here actually knows what if any the difference is for barrel lengths of 26", 28" and 30" given identical guns and cartridges.

 

I do agree with this though....

 

Well, i'm no mathematician

Edited August 4, 2010 by UKPoacher

[MC]

No. Once again you try and cloud the issue to cover your earlier comments.

 

 

 

You are assuming that the shot spreads evenly independent on the length of the barrel. It is not that simple. Apart from other considerations such as velocity, shot size, type of wad etc; all things being equal there is the factor I mentioned about the optimum barrel length. By your calculations a 2" barrel would only spread around 1" more than a 32" barrel and a 62" barrel would tighten the spread by another inch over the 32" length. That is nonsense!

 

I suggest that no one on here actually knows what if any the difference is for barrel lengths of 26", 28" and 30" given identical guns and cartridges.

 

I do agree with this though....

 

 

I am afraid dear boy it is you who is completely confused.

 

We are talking about the breech faces being in line and fired from the same position and assuming that the FIXED target is the same distance away AND the spreads at the SAME rate then a shorter barrel WILL give a slightly wider pattern at a given range.

 

Barrel lengths are complete irrelevant and why you keep banging on about 2" or 62" barrels completely amazes me as neither of these exist, apart from in your head or course.

 

If you have ever seen high speed photography of shot exiting a barrel? Obviously not because if you had you would know that it comes out pretty much as it is loaded in the cartridge and does not start to string out until it is in the air.

 

There is NO measurable difference between 28, 30 or 32" barrels, that I can assure you of. 3 cartridges of the same type fired through the same gun will not give the same pattern, so how you are meant to tell the difference between barrel lengths I do not know.

[the running man]

All very intresting,I'm sure if u wanna hit a far bird then a 34' barrel is more preferable than a 26' simple physics will tell you the pattern will stay (only a bit) tighter longer. Why don't the pair of u get some huge sheets of cardboard then find some people with the same gun but different barrel lengths, and shoot the cardboard to determine shot spread? Its what I do to test new cartridges guns,loads etc.(I can't afford anything more fancy than card!)

[poontang]

All very intresting,I'm sure if u wanna hit a far bird then a 34' barrel is more preferable than a 26' simple physics will tell you the pattern will stay (only a bit) tighter longer. Why don't the pair of u get some huge sheets of cardboard then find some people with the same gun but different barrel lengths, and shoot the cardboard to determine shot spread? Its what I do to test new cartridges guns,loads etc.(I can't afford anything more fancy than card!)

 

You are of course correct in what you say.

 

However my point is that the difference is so small that it becomes irrelevant. The difference in spread over normal shooting distances would be measured in millimetres, and i doubt anyone could tell the difference whilst shooting in the field. In fact i doubt very much it would be noticable when shooting at a pattern plate.

 

This point seems to be lost on certain people

[wymberley]

Eh, up, chaps,

While you're at it, if you let me know where you shoot, I'll take my 25" and go and take care of the pigeons.

Cheers

[MC]

Eh, up, chaps,

While you're at it, if you let me know where you shoot, I'll take my 25" and go and take care of the pigeons.

Cheers

 

 

I would do normally, but as most of my pigeons are shot at range (With appropriate cartridges) and everyone knows that short barrel guns give wider patterns. :good:

[UKPoacher]

You are of course correct in what you say.

 

However my point is that the difference is so small that it becomes irrelevant. The difference in spread over normal shooting distances would be measured in millimetres, and i doubt anyone could tell the difference whilst shooting in the field. In fact i doubt very much it would be noticable when shooting at a pattern plate.

 

This point seems to be lost on certain people

 

The point that is lost on certain people is that not one of us knows the answer for sure. It takes more than a few calculations on a mobile phone to come up with a a stated theory that the pattern will only widen by 1" per 30" of travel at 40yds given 1/4 choke.

 

The simple fact is; I don't know what difference the barrel length makes in normal barrel lengths used for shooting and neither do you. Your calculations are flawed. Simple as!

 

 

I am afraid dear boy it is you who is completely confused.

 

We are talking about the breech faces being in line and fired from the same position and assuming that the FIXED target is the same distance away AND the spreads at the SAME rate then a shorter barrel WILL give a slightly wider pattern at a given range.

 

Barrel lengths are complete irrelevant and why you keep banging on about 2" or 62" barrels completely amazes me as neither of these exist, apart from in your head or course.

 

If you have ever seen high speed photography of shot exiting a barrel? Obviously not because if you had you would know that it comes out pretty much as it is loaded in the cartridge and does not start to string out until it is in the air.

 

There is NO measurable difference between 28, 30 or 32" barrels, that I can assure you of. 3 cartridges of the same type fired through the same gun will not give the same pattern, so how you are meant to tell the difference between barrel lengths I do not know.

 

Sorry MC, you can't fudge the issue so easily. The 2" & 62" examples are there purely to show that poontangs stated theory of calculated spread does not hold water. You talk about shot leaving the barrel. Think back to my previous post when I asked you a direct question, and am still awaiting the answer from you, of where in the barrel length does the shot become 'sorted' so as to travel out of the barrel parallel with other shot? The highlighted part of your statement is not quite true. Shot is affected by choke and therefore cannot leave the barrel 'pretty much as it is loaded in the cartridge' otherwise chokes would be pointless.

 

My case is that in normal length barrels the shot is sorted by the time it leaves the end. In a 2" barrel it would not be sorted and therefore would spread far wider than poontangs simple 1" spread per 30" travelled theory. In a normal length barrel no one here will have done the necessary research in a controlled environment to be able to make any prediction. Many people believe that shorter barrels give wider spread all other things being equal, but no one can give a definitive answer as to how much.

Edited August 4, 2010 by UKPoacher

[poontang]

Many people believe that shorter barrels give wider spread all other things being equal, but no one can give a definitive answer as to how much.

 

Then it looks as though many people are wrong.

 

According to Gamebore, Eley and the BASC the difference would be so small it would be undetectable.

 

My point all along.

 

You wanted expert opinion, you got it

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

I could be 100% sure that me shooting though my 32inch barrels at a given target at say between 35 and 45 yards would have more pellets in the kill zone equals pigeon not a bit of card .It maybe only 1 or 2 but that extra pellets but 1 or 2 pellets extra would give me more chance of killing the bird on average than a shooter shooting though 26 or 28 inch barrels.

 

So the diffrents maybe small in terms of figures but in the field it could mean the diffrents in downing the bird of winging it to limp to a tree and die a sad last moments which I why I try to kill birds cleanly and using longer barrels works for ME.

 

Regards OTH

[wymberley]

I could be 100% sure that me shooting though my 32inch barrels at a given target at say between 35 and 45 yards would have more pellets in the kill zone equals pigeon not a bit of card .It maybe only 1 or 2 but that extra pellets but 1 or 2 pellets extra would give me more chance of killing the bird on average than a shooter shooting though 26 or 28 inch barrels.

 

So the diffrents maybe small in terms of figures but in the field it could mean the diffrents in downing the bird of winging it to limp to a tree and die a sad last moments which I why I try to kill birds cleanly and using longer barrels works for ME.

 

Regards OTH

If that average shooter had shorter barrels choked to match the choking of your gun, what would happen then?

Cheers

[sitsinhedges]

This thread is going no where now

[wymberley]

This thread is going no where now

Spot on, the whole debate was put to bed about 80 years ago.

Cheers

[the running man]

Over the hill. Ure card comment, I use it to show me what my pattern is doing,nothing more,its the only way to show pattern dispersal, irrefutable and final. Wymberly will tell you.

[poontang]

I could be 100% sure that me shooting though my 32inch barrels at a given target at say between 35 and 45 yards would have more pellets in the kill zone equals pigeon not a bit of card .It maybe only 1 or 2 but that extra pellets but 1 or 2 pellets extra would give me more chance of killing the bird on average than a shooter shooting though 26 or 28 inch barrels.

 

So the diffrents maybe small in terms of figures but in the field it could mean the diffrents in downing the bird of winging it to limp to a tree and die a sad last moments which I why I try to kill birds cleanly and using longer barrels works for ME.

 

Regards OTH

 

If it works for you OTH that's all that matters.

 

We all try and find things that give us an extra edge in our shooting, whether it's choke, cartridge type, barrel length etc. etc. The fact is that usually these things give us the edge in our minds only. That in itself is not a bad thing as it gives us confidence in our shooting.

 

One of the people i spoke to this afternoon works for Gamebore. He told me that they use a 40 yard indoor range and have tested thousands of cartridges, through hundreds of guns. They pattern test at different ranges, and he assured me that it would be impossible to measure any difference in pattern/spread using guns with differing barrel lengths, at any given range, (Obviously i didn't mention 2" or 64" barrels ).

[utectok]

If it works for you OTH that's all that matters.

 

We all try and find things that give us an extra edge in our shooting, whether it's choke, cartridge type, barrel length etc. etc. The fact is that usually these things give us the edge in our minds only. That in itself is not a bad thing as it gives us confidence in our shooting.

 

One of the people i spoke to this afternoon works for Gamebore. He told me that they use a 40 yard indoor range and have tested thousands of cartridges, through hundreds of guns. They pattern test at different ranges, and he assured me that it would be impossible to measure any difference in pattern/spread using guns with differing barrel lengths, at any given range, (Obviously i didn't mention 2" or 64" barrels ).

although has anyone fired a 3" cart through a 2" barrel!? Could be interesting !!

[fortune82]

I remember reading a US magazine recently where they tested a 20 inch shotgun with full choke against a 30 inch full choke. The difference was about 2% pattern density. I would want the 30 inch however for long range shooting because of the increased pointability.

[poontang]

:blink: although has anyone fired a 3" cart through a 2" barrel!? Could be interesting !!

 

I should imagine it would fizz and phfft and if you're lucky the shot would roll out of the cartridge.

[UKPoacher]

If it works for you OTH that's all that matters.

 

We all try and find things that give us an extra edge in our shooting, whether it's choke, cartridge type, barrel length etc. etc. The fact is that usually these things give us the edge in our minds only. That in itself is not a bad thing as it gives us confidence in our shooting.

 

One of the people i spoke to this afternoon works for Gamebore. He told me that they use a 40 yard indoor range and have tested thousands of cartridges, through hundreds of guns. They pattern test at different ranges, and he assured me that it would be impossible to measure any difference in pattern/spread using guns with differing barrel lengths, at any given range, (Obviously i didn't mention 2" or 64" barrels :blink: ).

 

Did you mention that you don't believe their claims about steel loads being safe in all guns?

[poontang]

Did you mention that you don't believe their claims about steel loads being safe in all guns?

 

As a matter of fact yes i did

 

He told me that as far as Gamebore were concerned they will stick by what they say in their marketing material. He also told me that should it be proven that one of their cartridges caused damage to any gun they would pay compensation. I also e-mailed Browning to get their view, but as yet have had no reply. When they get back to me i'll let you know what they say :blink:

[UKPoacher]

As a matter of fact yes i did

 

He told me that as far as Gamebore were concerned they will stick by what they say in their marketing material. He also told me that should it be proven that one of their cartridges caused damage to any gun they would pay compensation. I also e-mailed Browning to get their view, but as yet have had no reply. When they get back to me i'll let you know what they say :look:

 

That's what I like to hear. Progress at last. Not such a bad company after all are they?

[poontang]

That's what I like to hear. Progress at last. Not such a bad company after all are they? :look:

 

I've never said they are a bad company. Indeed, apart from clay cartridges i always use Gamebore brands for pigeon and 'fowling.

I wouldn't say Browning are a bad company either, and i still wouldn't use steel shot through one of their fixed choke guns.

[guerrilla podge]

At the end of the day its horses for courses. Ive had some of my best days decoying with 28 gram 7 or 7.5. If I know the birds will be further out then I will use 32 gram 5 or 6. The 7.5 would probably still kill but the extra load gives more confidence.

 

The last 2 nights I have been flightlining and the birds have been well up due to very little wind. I used full and full choke and 42 gram no.3 which fethced them down brilliantly. No pricked birds and 17 for 24 shots. Wouldnt like to fire too many of these mind!!!!

 

horrid expensive and hard on the shoulder the 42's

[J@mes]

42's?? what are you shooting, albatross?

[Pearce]

You should try Fiocchi Super Sport 28grm 7.5 because it's an italian 7.5 it's actually an English 7 and they work well at taking the wood pigs quite punchy but a nice cartridge none the less