Open Ticket

[keg]

Not sure if this is the right bit of the forum to ask on so apologies if it's in the wrong place.

 

I have had my FAC over a year and it's for .17HMR and .22LR.

 

Although i have two permissions, i am asked to go on othe permissions by mates and also occasionally land where it is safe to shhot but over which i have no permissions and therefore have to refuse.

 

after what length of time is it advisable to ask for an open ticket?.

 

West Yorkshire is the force i am under.

 

Thanks

[bignoel]

is your mates land cleared for 17hmr or 22lr if so you only need the land owners permission .and go for the open ticket it cost's nothing to apply .noel

[MC]

If you have no permission to shoot ove rthe land then how is an open ticket going to help?

[Devon Fox]

I think he means he has permission but not clearance?

 

Jusst get them added to your ticket - and speak to your fao, they will tell you exactly where you stand.

[keg]

Sorry let me make things a little clearer. I have two permisions but am often asked to shoot on land where i don't have permisions and therefore want to apply for an open ticket and was therefore wondering if one year was enough time to have to apply for an open ticket so i don't have to keep applying for separate permissions

[jonesbach]

is your mates land cleared for 17hmr or 22lr if so you only need the land owners permission .and go for the open ticket it cost's nothing to apply .noel

 

just because the land is cleared doesnt mean you can shoot there. take a document 4 along to the farmer, if hes signed one for your mates you wont have a problem, hand that into your local police station and then it will be added for you. The more land you can get permission for, the better. i applied for an open licence aftr 3yrs and was declined for whatever reason..even though i had over a 1000 acres permission. after 5 yrs (renewal time) its almost automatic for an open to be granted upon request.

 

nothing wrong with asking though..

 

good luck with it!

[ash243]

im my experience of west Yorks police they will only allow an open ticket on the first renewal of your FAC they like it that way This was some years ago when i was with them i can see them changing as they were very strict on Firearms for years they would only open up each rifle after you had had it on your ticket for 5 Years

 

my mate had an open 223 for 10 years decided he wanted to start on the deer and put in for variation to get a 243 they did the variation but removed the open status which was a bit silly as he then had to take two rifles out with him

[ash243]

Sorry let me make things a little clearer. I have two permisions but am often asked to shoot on land where i don't have permisions and therefore want to apply for an open ticket and was therefore wondering if one year was enough time to have to apply for an open ticket so i don't have to keep applying for separate permissions

 

Hi and welcome to the wonderfully restrictive of fire arms ownership

Edited August 6, 2010 by ash243

[kent]

Some forces do things different but most (closed) certificates state that land should be cleared by police and the certificate holder has the legal right to shoot. An (open) condition just allows you as the certificate holder to deem it safe ie you do your own inspection.

I doubt you will get an (open) condition but you could perhaps get the above (closed) term rather than having all land actually named. Unless your mates own the sporting rights then you still need the consent of the owner though a simple verbal "yeah bring him along" will do

The normal period before a true (open) certificate is granted is the first renewal or 4yrs i think which was the old renewal term if i remember correctly, exeptions might be made to this i know of two ex military snipers who got granted (open) conditions at first application and poor licencing desisions go both ways so you never know

[al4x]

Sorry let me make things a little clearer. I have two permisions but am often asked to shoot on land where i don't have permisions and therefore want to apply for an open ticket and was therefore wondering if one year was enough time to have to apply for an open ticket so i don't have to keep applying for separate permissions

 

 

you mean on land where you don't have clearance not where you don't have permission as that would be poaching If you have the ok to shoot there if its been cleared in the past for your caliber then that is fine if not then you would need it cleared first. Keep throwing new bits at your FEO and keep using lots of ammo both count with regard to trying to get it opened quicker than first renewal.

[Raja Clavata]

Open or as some prefer to call them "less restrictive" certificates confuse me.

 

Some people seem to think that an Open cert allows them to shoot on land, they have permission on, using whatever calibre they want EVEN if that land has been approved for a smaller calibre. This does not make sense to me - I would expect an open cert allows you to deem the land suitable for a particular calibre only in circumstances where no clearance has been applied to that land previously. i.e. you can't legally shoot say a .223 CF on land cleared by the Police for calibres up to .22 rimfire only - regardless of what your certifcate states.

 

Can someone please definitvely clarify which interpretation is correct?

 

Ta

Raja

[jonesbach]

the "open" part is only for the calibre you are granted it for. ie if you own a RF and have an open cert for that, you can shoot it anywhere you have permission, regardless of whether that land is approved or not. the "open" part allows YOU to be the person approving the land for YOUR shot. If the same person owns a .223 on a closed cert, they cannot shoot this rifle on any land other than that already approved for them by police (ie with doc 4 sent in)

 

I have this exact situation with my licence..open for .22lr and closed for .233.

 

hope this clears it up a little.

[Raja Clavata]

Sorry, but not really. I'm seeking clarification on whether or not someone with an open cert for say a .223CF can legally shoot it over land that is only cleared for .22 rimfire? I don't believe you can / should be able to...

[al4x]

yes you can, it matters not if the police have cleared it for only a smaller caliber. After all the shooter has a certain level of experience with the gun before getting an open ticket probably making them more suitable to judge the land than the FEO.

 

Personally the whole clearance issue is bull anyway, I've got farms blanket cleared when I could be dangerous if I shot in a fair part of them

 

after all then you'd still have to check all ground before shooting it would be a minefield whereas now once opened you make the decision

Edited August 6, 2010 by al4x

[kent]

Sorry, but not really. I'm seeking clarification on whether or not someone with an open cert for say a .223CF can legally shoot it over land that is only cleared for .22 rimfire? I don't believe you can / should be able to...

 

Yes but there is confusion here to what an (open) certificate is it is NOT a closed or novice certificate without territorial restrictions that is NOT an open ticket. As an open FAC holder you can shoot any guns marked (open) on any land you have lawfull authority on. There is a guy here with an open term for a .22 rf and closed for a .223 rem (that seems dumb to myself, but have seen worse). An open certificate is the police recognising that you have the required experiance to recognise what is safe.

You might think it wrong but i can (as an open ticket holder)shoot on land they have previously called unsafe for use of firearms by police and the fact is no land is safe or unsafe in the entire country it is the shot that is taken that is safe or otherwise. The difference is i have been verified by them as having enough knoledge to make the safety call on each shot.

The fact you don't think i should be able to use .223 on land cleared for .22rf only shows a lack of understanding of the safety isues involved

[Dekers]

Not sure if this is the right bit of the forum to ask on so apologies if it's in the wrong place.

 

I have had my FAC over a year and it's for .17HMR and .22LR.

 

Although i have two permissions, i am asked to go on othe permissions by mates and also occasionally land where it is safe to shhot but over which i have no permissions and therefore have to refuse.

 

after what length of time is it advisable to ask for an open ticket?.

 

West Yorkshire is the force i am under.

 

Thanks

 

 

How long is the piece of string......

 

Show need and history and you have a chance.....requests of help from other land owners and large quantities of ammo used can also help!!

 

Build your case and have a go, they can only say no!

[Raja Clavata]

Yes but there is confusion here to what an (open) certificate is it is NOT a closed or novice certificate without territorial restrictions that is NOT an open ticket. As an open FAC holder you can shoot any guns marked (open) on any land you have lawfull authority on. There is a guy here with an open term for a .22 rf and closed for a .223 rem (that seems dumb to myself, but have seen worse). An open certificate is the police recognising that you have the required experiance to recognise what is safe.

You might think it wrong but i can (as an open ticket holder)shoot on land they have previously called unsafe for use of firearms by police and the fact is no land is safe or unsafe in the entire country it is the shot that is taken that is safe or otherwise. The difference is i have been verified by them as having enough knoledge to make the safety call on each shot.

The fact you don't think i should be able to use .223 on land cleared for .22rf only shows a lack of understanding of the safety isues involved

 

I was playing a bit of DA there so perhaps such a patronising response is partially justified.

 

Please clarify the verification process the Police used to ascertain you have the knowledge to make the safety call on each shot? Based on my experience here, and in the real world, it seems more to do with where you live and the views of your FEO. It's not clear to me that holding a certificate for x years and having used y rounds over that time is any measure of being safe...

 

Thanks al4x - I agree with you on the clearance being bull! One of my permissions is only cleared for .22 RF but there are places where you could safely shoot a .308 and others where letting a .22RF off would be bonkers. By the same token the ~1000 acres where I have clearance for .243 on there are very few places with a safe back-stop (it's a WW2 air-base) - high chairs and very specific angles of approach are a must. Same force cleared both sites.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Raja Clavata

[Frenchieboy]

I don't know if this helps as I am with Lancashire Constabulary. I asked for my FAC to be changed to an Open Certificate as I am constantly being asked to do "vermin control" on land that is new to me or not cleared yet. I explained to my Firearms Licensing Office that quite often I was being asked to start controlling the vermin straight away but was unable to do so because of the time factor in getting it cleared for rifle shooting. Even though I had only had my FAC for about a year I wanted to know if it could it be changed to open certificate as it was quite a restriction on me. The result that I was given was that I could have an Open FAC for my Rimfire (17HMR) but I should wait another 6 months or so before they would open my FAC for my .222

This result was fine for me and shows that there are no "legal time requirements" for getting an Open Certificate, it is up to the individual issuing office and each case should be judged on its merit. Maybe a polite phone call to your FEO would help you out in explaining the circumstances!

[Dekers]

I was playing a bit of DA there so perhaps such a patronising response is partially justified.

 

Please clarify the verification process the Police used to ascertain you have the knowledge to make the safety call on each shot? Based on my experience here, and in the real world, it seems more to do with where you live and the views of your FEO. It's not clear to me that holding a certificate for x years and having used y rounds over that time is any measure of being safe...

 

Thanks al4x - I agree with you on the clearance being bull! One of my permissions is only cleared for .22 RF but there are places where you could safely shoot a .308 and others where letting a .22RF off would be bonkers. By the same token the ~1000 acres where I have clearance for .243 on there are very few places with a safe back-stop (it's a WW2 air-base) - high chairs and very specific angles of approach are a must. Same force cleared both sites.

 

 

I wish someone could clarify that and many other regional anomalies in shooting. Every Police region should be singing from the same Hymn sheet but they are not!

[hawkeye]

Well you should move to Cleveland i got my first FAC for air i had a theoben MK11 that Ben Taylor cranked up to 30 ft lbs that was closed with only my main farm to shoot on..

3 months later decided to apply for a .22 rimfire and a .17HMR my ticket came back open, even when i added my Tikka 223 cf 18 months later it was still open...

[kent]

I was playing a bit of DA there so perhaps such a patronising response is partially justified.

 

Please clarify the verification process the Police used to ascertain you have the knowledge to make the safety call on each shot? Based on my experience here, and in the real world, it seems more to do with where you live and the views of your FEO. It's not clear to me that holding a certificate for x years and having used y rounds over that time is any measure of being safe...

 

Thanks al4x - I agree with you on the clearance being bull! One of my permissions is only cleared for .22 RF but there are places where you could safely shoot a .308 and others where letting a .22RF off would be bonkers. By the same token the ~1000 acres where I have clearance for .243 on there are very few places with a safe back-stop (it's a WW2 air-base) - high chairs and very specific angles of approach are a must. Same force cleared both sites.

 

Simple it is "in thier opinion" it is not always going to be correct, i think many Open tickets that are granted on ammo use are wrong as great use of ammo generally means lots of range shooting. What i am getting at and i am sorry it sounds partonising i am totally of the opinion that .22 rf is one of the most dangerous rounds yet so often you hear it is safe for rimfire but not centrefire, you made the point did you not yourself? DA or not. This can only be based on maximum range which should never even be an issue with an adequate backstop. I have witnessed .22 subs ricochet off a rabbits head off a tiny unseen stone in an otherwise ideal soft grassy bank and other situations you just wouldn't expect it to occur though i cannot remeber an instance with my .243" say.

[Raja Clavata]

I believe our thinking is aligned I'm certainly aligned with your views on the .22lr

 

I had a mentoring condition on my first FAC (RF's) but a mate of mine just got his without one (same force), the Police have cleared the land he shoots on for up to .22RF so how are they ensuring he does not take that to mean he can fire it anywhere and in any direction on that land? - quite clearly they are not!

 

Seems to me that a better approach to open cert issuance would be a nationally applied test that ensured a consistent level of verification criteria so that people could upgrade OR a scheme where you need to past the test before the FAC is issued and then all certs could be open. Probably a can of worms though ...