Advice on caliber please.....

[malkiserow]

I am going through my FAC application at the moment and put in for .243 as the largest caliber that I thought would do the job on deer that a first time FAC applicant could go for. However, the FEO says that I can probably get up to .308 if I want it and swap out the .243 for .308. Is this a good idea?

 

My other thought was to go for 65 55 as a flatter long range deer gun with less meat damage. Realistically I will mostly shoot the smaller deer species but want a rifle that can be used on the larger species such as in Scotland with perhaps longer range shots.

 

I will get fox on my .17HMR which will be OK with good shot placement on shorter range shots. My idea before was to do my occasional long range fox shooting with a light .243 bullet. I guess anything over .243 is OTT for fox. My local gun shop says that light fox rounds in a .243 with wear out the gun very quickly?!

 

BTW I know a .222 and .223 would be better for fox but I do not really shoot enough fox to warrant a dedicated fox rifle (this is my compomise area)

 

My priority is a flexible deer rifle. The fox capability is a bonus.

 

Any thoughts on this?

[scotland rifles]

Well here is what my thinking on it is,

 

1, .243 for dear and fox, 85 gr soft point for roe and fallow. 70gr for those charlies and munty if you have any,

 

2, HMR for fox here is a no no, but saves you carrying 2 rifles.so if you get it keep it close range please.

 

as for the barrel going a bit quicker than normal with light bullets, if you try to run any rifle with light bullets and run it hot IE: pushing the limits of powder weight and safety it will not be the best way to treat your new rifle,

 

bob.

[Gareth W]

Well here is what my thinking on it is,

 

1, .243 for dear and fox, 85 gr soft point for roe and fallow. 70gr for those charlies and munty if you have any,

 

2, HMR for fox here is a no no, but saves you carrying 2 rifles.so if you get it keep it close range please.

 

as for the barrel going a bit quicker than normal with light bullets, if you try to run any rifle with light bullets and run it hot IE: pushing the limits of powder weight and safety it will not be the best way to treat your new rifle,

 

bob.

 

Not in Scotland it is a legal requirement to use bullets weighing more than 100gr for deer other than Roe, which maybe shot with a minimum of 50gr.

 

6.5 x 55 will do everything you ask and so will a .243. You could always go for either of those to start with, then if you feel a need ask for a larger calibre. How can you say 6.5 is to large for fox? It will drop one on the spot.

[al4x]

In your case stick with the .243, I say this as it is a fantastic fox gun and will shoot most UK deer fine. The 308 is a good deer gun but no where near as good on foxes.

If you had a .223 etc I'd say get a 308 but in this case one gun will do most things if you go after big hill reds then you can always borrow a gun.

[kent]

.243" is a good choice for all but the heavy stags, shot placement in the hands of less experianced c/fire users will be generally much better from all shooting posisions. The .243" win and .260 rem (origonally a necked up to 6.5mm .243") and the new 6.5 x 47 lapua win most of the Sniper matches in the USA these days.

The other nice thing about the .243" is it is a great fox gun and for a single load on English deer and fox i think the 95 grn Nosler b/t takes some beating, In scotland you need 100 grn for all but roe and i like 100 seirra pro-hunter. The 6.5mm varminting round is the 95 grn bullet, 6.5's are over kill on foxes but with a 140 grn bullet will kill mostly anything on the planet Bell took most of his elephants with one!

Your gunsmith is correct .243" gives short barrel life especially with 55 grn bullets, best stick to 70 grn upwards (the best single weight bullet for fox only). It also needs to go pretty fast to make it deer legal on the ft lb limit so not much cop using light loads. To case in point it will often fail to meet requirements on factory 100 grn deer loads with shorter barrel guns. expect 1500-2000 rounds on average out of your tube. 6.5 x 55 and .308 with normal 140 grn and 150 grn bullets respectively will easy double that

Many highland estates do not allow .243" on Reds having hang ups from the past with shooters who brought varmint rounds with them, but then again many a lowland stag has been dropped Illegally by Roe stalkers using .222 rem

.308 is overkill on small deer and harder to get foxes allowed on your ticket, as for flat shooting- at the ranges you should be shooting Deer this is a total non issue any calibre will be flat enough if it is legal. Thing is you will find it far harder to shoot .308 as well as .243" in real world deer work as recoil control is harder.

 

I totally dispute the 17HMR as a being useable on fox and many constabularies rightly agree, with totally perfect placement it can do it but so can most things, personally it would be the last gun in my cabinet i should choose for Charlie.

 

Hope this helps, oh i have shot all of these guns on quarry by the way no assumptions made. I have had a love hate relationship with my .243" but it is the gun i will always keep.

[al4x]

have to say the fox and HMR argument has been done to death but I have to say mine does come out specifically for fox at times and it does it well in circumstances where I don't want to use a centrefire. At one point this year I'd shot more with it than with my .223, perfectly capable but the closer the better, that said it doesn't expand as fast once it gets out a way and seems to actually work better which is fairly interesting

[groach1234]

I was in the same predicament about a month or two ago. i was going to go .243 but applied .223 and 6.5x55. Just bought a 6.5x55 and got both deer and fox on it. I will be pushing 156 grain norma soft points for reds and would do for fallow and sika dropping down to a 120 grain ballistic tip for fox and a 130grain bullet for roe and munties. In a year or 2 a .223 will be on the cards as a dedicated foxing rifle but as i am getting into deer stalking in a large way the 6.5x55 made more sense. Its up to you and if you don't intend reds or sika a .243 will be perfect for roe, muntie, fox and maybe fallow but anything bigger is pushing it. A .243 will kill a .243 but its likely to run 100yards and that may be 100 yards into cover then you will be regretting not having the extra stopping power. As for hmr for fox, i have an HMR but am yet to shoot a fox with it although i was by my FEO he had taken them out to 100 yards i can't help but feel you have that bit more room for error with a larger caliber. Whatever you decide it will work well for you Im sure and as you will find out everyone has an opinion and they often contradict each other.

 

George

[njc110381]

If Reds were involved my choices would come down to 6.5x55, .260 Rem or 7-08, 7x57 depending on how big you want to go.

 

I got on great with my 6.5x55 and it worked a treat for me. It's not a huge bullet but the weights are up there to deal with the larger species. Same with the .260, but it will handle lighter bullets better than the 6.5 and the heavier ones not quite so well. All would be preferable to a .243 for Reds.

 

The 100grn bullet is right up there at the very top limit for the .243 so why not just go slightly bigger? The 6.5/.260 isn't much bigger and is still widely accepted for Foxing.

[Dekers]

Sometimes there are questions that are very difficult to answer, and sometimes you will find several rifles useful!

[kent]

I was in the same predicament about a month or two ago. i was going to go .243 but applied .223 and 6.5x55. Just bought a 6.5x55 and got both deer and fox on it. I will be pushing 156 grain norma soft points for reds and would do for fallow and sika dropping down to a 120 grain ballistic tip for fox and a 130grain bullet for roe and munties. In a year or 2 a .223 will be on the cards as a dedicated foxing rifle but as i am getting into deer stalking in a large way the 6.5x55 made more sense. Its up to you and if you don't intend reds or sika a .243 will be perfect for roe, muntie, fox and maybe fallow but anything bigger is pushing it. A .243 will kill a .243 but its likely to run 100yards and that may be 100 yards into cover then you will be regretting not having the extra stopping power. As for hmr for fox, i have an HMR but am yet to shoot a fox with it although i was by my FEO he had taken them out to 100 yards i can't help but feel you have that bit more room for error with a larger caliber. Whatever you decide it will work well for you Im sure and as you will find out everyone has an opinion and they often contradict each other.

 

George

All deer can and will run when hit in the heart lungs regardless of how big a hole you make, the only difference is the strike 100 grn .243 isn't always going to do both sides if it contacts shoulders or any big bones. With a dog it aint too bad finding them without you are often following nothing into the woods. On the flip side it is easier to neck them with the .243" than a bigger cal. All said and done i have a dog though still pick up the 7-08 for the big ones but as a small deer with the occasional big boy and foxes you just can't beat the .243"

[groach1234]

All deer can and will run when hit in the heart lungs regardless of how big a hole you make, the only difference is the strike 100 grn .243 isn't always going to do both sides if it contacts shoulders or any big bones. With a dog it aint too bad finding them without you are often following nothing into the woods. On the flip side it is easier to neck them with the .243" than a bigger cal. All said and done i have a dog though still pick up the 7-08 for the big ones but as a small deer with the occasional big boy and foxes you just can't beat the .243"

 

I understand what you have to say but with a 156 grain from my 6.5 over a 105 grain bullet from a .243 you do get the added 'shock' factor that does have an effect on how far if at all i beast may run but its not a given. Like you say if you have a dog, go for neck shots or are bang on every time for a boiler room shot a .243 if fine for reds. But i don't have a dear dog and although still a very small margin for error even with a larger caliber it makes me more relaxed for the shot and so more confident to take the shot and know it will strike home. Horses for courses and all that and like you say a .243 is a fine foxing tool especially pushing a 55 grain bullet its flat, fast and charlie doesn't have a chance to complain.

 

George

Edited August 6, 2010 by groach1234

[Dekers]

All deer can and will run when hit in the heart lungs regardless of how big a hole you make, the only difference is the strike 100 grn .243 isn't always going to do both sides if it contacts shoulders or any big bones. With a dog it aint too bad finding them without you are often following nothing into the woods. On the flip side it is easier to neck them with the .243" than a bigger cal. All said and done i have a dog though still pick up the 7-08 for the big ones but as a small deer with the occasional big boy and foxes you just can't beat the .243"

 

 

:lol:

 

Sorry chap but that is rubbish!

 

Can :o

 

Will

[kent]

:lol:

 

Sorry chap but that is rubbish!

 

Can :o

 

Will

 

 

Obviously you need to shoot some more deer or are you putting the ones that run off down to misses, i have stalked for quite a while hold a level 2 and have Sika at the side of my house presently. What it depends on mostly is adrenalin running distance and calibre are not linked in my experiance if we are talking all deer legal calibres. Appologies for my use of gramar can means exactly that WILL means expect it, not 100% of the time but more likely than not if they become aware of you presence

[kent]

I understand what you have to say but with a 156 grain from my 6.5 over a 105 grain bullet from a .243 you do get the added 'shock' factor that does have an effect on how far if at all i beast may run but its not a given. Like you say if you have a dog, go for neck shots or are bang on every time for a boiler room shot a .243 if fine for reds. But i don't have a dear dog and although still a very small margin for error even with a larger caliber it makes me more relaxed for the shot and so more confident to take the shot and know it will strike home. Horses for courses and all that and like you say a .243 is a fine foxing tool especially pushing a 55 grain bullet its flat, fast and charlie doesn't have a chance to complain.

 

George

55 grn is for those woodchucks 70 grn would be my choice foxes only but i use 95 grn for everything in England IMO the most versitle one load one gun Fox and Deer load, I doubt you transfer more shock to the beast with the 6.5 as the bullet carries energy with it on its exit you certainly get a better strike through with the bigger cals though with the associated blood trail, you also damage less meat .243" bullets on big deer often break up a lot in the oposite flank

[Paddy Galore!]

Why mess around with different load weights? it only means re zeroing every time you change the ammo, currently using 140gr remmi corelokt thru my 6.5x55 (too lazy to reload), and admittedly, it'll go thru a fox front to back, but dead is dead, so long as there's a safe backdrop you'll be ok.

[groach1234]

55 grn is for those woodchucks 70 grn would be my choice foxes only but i use 95 grn for everything in England IMO the most versitle one load one gun Fox and Deer load, I doubt you transfer more shock to the beast with the 6.5 as the bullet carries energy with it on its exit you certainly get a better strike through with the bigger cals though with the associated blood trail, you also damage less meat .243" bullets on big deer often break up a lot in the oposite flank

 

Like you say a .243 is probably the closest to a do all caliber especially with a 95/100 grain bullet. I came oh so close to applying .243 as a do all caliber but in the end decided that there really was no such thing so went for two guns instead although i am now loving the 6.5x55 and think it will work nicely for me until I pick up a .223 in 6 months or so once i have the funds to buy yet another set up. I was just saying the 6.5 has that bit more punch for reds.

 

George

[Harnser]

For crying out loud ,get a .308 ,it will do for anything or if you really want to kill them twice go for the .270 . Both these calibres will kill any thing clean and you wont have to say should I shouldnt I when you address that big old red stag . Believe me I have been doing this for a very long time .

Harnser .

[Paddy Galore!]

For crying out loud ,get a .308 ,it will do for anything or if you really want to kill them twice go for the .270 . Both these calibres will kill any thing clean and you wont have to say should I shouldnt I when you address that big old red stag . Believe me I have been doing this for a very long time .

Harnser .

wondered when you were going to post harnser! .308, ultimate deer tool.

[groach1234]

For crying out loud ,get a .308 ,it will do for anything or if you really want to kill them twice go for the .270 . Both these calibres will kill any thing clean and you wont have to say should I shouldnt I when you address that big old red stag . Believe me I have been doing this for a very long time .

Harnser .

 

I also was waiting for your .308 as a jack of all trades comment. I think .270, 6.5x55, .308 or 7x57 all fall in a similar category .

 

George

[Beardo]

I also was waiting for your .308 as a jack of all trades comment. I think .270, 6.5x55, .308 or 7x57 all fall in a similar category .

 

George

 

with the 6.5x55 being very mild in the shoulder

 

all i'll add to this is - realistically how often are you going to be shooting Reds and how often fox/small deer?

if i had to choose one calibre for all uses it would probably be .243 as i mostly shoot fox and small deer, but i'm very happy having a .223 and a 6.5x55 which covers all bases

[groach1234]

with the 6.5x55 being very mild in the shoulder

 

Once you have sorted out you shooting position its all fine

 

George

[Harnser]

with the 6.5x55 being very mild in the shoulder

 

all i'll add to this is - realistically how often are you going to be shooting Reds and how often fox/small deer?

if i had to choose one calibre for all uses it would probably be .243 as i mostly shoot fox and small deer, but i'm very happy having a .223 and a 6.5x55 which covers all bases

 

Nick , do you carry a spare wheel in your car ,just incase you get a puncture ? I most certinly do . I have shot many red stags over the years and although I dont stalk as often as I used to I hope to have a few more before I give it up compleatly . If when I next address a big lowland red stag I will be doing so with the jack of all trades rifle and master of them all the .308 . I will feel more confident when this happens again, knowing that I have the spare wheel with me .

 

Harnser .

[Beardo]

i'm certainly not going to argue with your knowledge Harnser - if i knew half of what your left thumb knows about shooting i'd be happy.

i just find the .308 a bit of a monster.

 

oh and i do carry a spare wheel - but as Stealth Stalker and I found out on the way to the North Vs South shoot - it was a cheap unidirectional one (and the opposite side punctured) which made us very late getting home trying to get it fixed

[Dekers]

All deer can and will run when hit in the heart lungs regardless of how big a hole you make, the only difference is the strike 100 grn .243 isn't always going to do both sides if it contacts shoulders or any big bones. With a dog it aint too bad finding them without you are often following nothing into the woods. On the flip side it is easier to neck them with the .243" than a bigger cal. All said and done i have a dog though still pick up the 7-08 for the big ones but as a small deer with the occasional big boy and foxes you just can't beat the .243"

 

 

:)

 

Sorry chap but that is rubbish!

 

Can

 

Will

 

 

Obviously you need to shoot some more deer or are you putting the ones that run off down to misses, i have stalked for quite a while hold a level 2 and have Sika at the side of my house presently. What it depends on mostly is adrenalin running distance and calibre are not linked in my experiance if we are talking all deer legal calibres. Appologies for my use of gramar can means exactly that WILL means expect it, not 100% of the time but more likely than not if they become aware of you presence

 

 

I was making the point ALL deer do not run!!!

 

....and...as you have now elaborated.......Actually VERY few when you hit them right after stalking them right, if I have to walk 20 yards from impact point to recover a deer (very rare) I am ****** off and look at what I did wrong.. calm deer well shot fall down! And strange as it may seem they also fall down for all my deer shooting buddies, I have never been out with any of them and had to chase a shot deer more than a few yards, the vast majority drop on the spot!

 

I always find it strange that many on forums seem to expect to chase deer all round the fields after they shoot them. Lets not get into a debate about deer running into the next county with no heart, mine fall down, if others peoples don't please ask them why not, not me!

 

ATB!!

[kent]

I was making the point ALL deer do not run!!!

 

....and...as you have now elaborated.......Actually VERY few when you hit them right after stalking them right, if I have to walk 20 yards from impact point to recover a deer (very rare) I am ****** off and look at what I did wrong.. calm deer well shot fall down! And strange as it may seem they also fall down for all my deer shooting buddies, I have never been out with any of them and had to chase a shot deer more than a few yards, the vast majority drop on the spot!

 

I always find it strange that many on forums seem to expect to chase deer all round the fields after they shoot them. Lets not get into a debate about deer running into the next county with no heart, mine fall down, if others peoples don't please ask them why not, not me!

 

ATB!!

 

This sort of think gives new stalkers the wrong idea and leads to a lot of unrecovered dead deer. The BDS published some info on this as part of thier wounding rate research, at a guess 6-7 yrs back i will see if i can find it. As stated previously i have stalked with 30 cal, 7mm, 6.5mm, and .243" there is nil difference in how far they run in relation to calibre. Park deer will tend not to run much but Generally expect most deer to run on chest shots, even things like the bullet striking the background or the report of the gun scares truely wild deer. Totally have to disagree with you that very few run when you stalk them right and shoot them in the chest, this is only twisting my explaination of my poor wording- then again perhaps you shoot Park deer. Ok 100 yds is not that common unless we are talking Sika stags but is perfectly normal for them to take a death dash nothing you can do to improve that. I have witnessed some strange stuff with shot deer once seen a fallow doe chest shot go down then get up and run maybee 60yds as if wounded my companion at the time shot it again on the leg before it reached the wood (congradulating him on what seemed an exellent finishing shot ) on inspection only one hole demolishing the top of the heart his finishing shot was a total miss! Seen deer stand stock still as if missed that were totally dead on thier feet, bad shots drop them on the spot for no obvious reason and quite a few disapear for the horizon looking like a front leg wound with one leg flailing away then go down after more than the 100yds with a hole the size of a mans fist through thier vitals.

Fact is only way to drop them on the spot is neck shoot them behind the lughole i am not a big fan of the practice but it sure works even with a 55grn bullet and a .222. OR pin them definatly not a fan of that!