Open Certificate

[Dekers]

my fac was up for renewal last June I had a fully open ticket up to .243 my existing cert was based on a farm that is now a housing estate!! so as I STILL had to "prove need" I was asked to submit another piece of land as my primary land ( I gave them 3 permission slips) one was chosen and the landowner WAS contacted and the land WAS checked out by plod and deemed suitable(landowner let me know they had been ) for ALL my calibres ie .243 .223 .22lr .17 hmr and fac air x 2, perhaps I should have told them not to bother as deker says its not necessary. and that once you have an open cert you no longer have to prove need?

 

KW

 

You would be well advised to READ what I have said a little more carefully, and I note nobody has come up with any legislation yet!

[kdubya]

That statement is wrong, you still have to prove you need a firearm. Just because your ticket is open that only means you can shoot on any land that you have permission to shoot over and YOU think it is safe.

 

If you do not have any land to shoot on then there goes your reason to own a firearm.

 

My last renewal was in may of this year and my FEO just asked if I still shot at X farm and Y farm. My ticket is open on all vermin calibres that I have.

 

 

it was not a statement it was a **** take!! read the context of the post!!

 

 

KW

[DaveK]

You would be well advised to READ what I have said a little more carefully, and I note nobody has come up with any legislation yet!

 

You would be well advised to take your own advice. IT DOESN'T NEED LEGISLATION AND THERE ISN'T ANY. It's at the discretion of each FLD to decide what evidence they want from you to justify good reason.

[Dekers]

my fac was up for renewal last June I had a fully open ticket up to .243 my existing cert was based on a farm that is now a housing estate!! so as I STILL had to "prove need" I was asked to submit another piece of land as my primary land ( I gave them 3 permission slips) one was chosen and the landowner WAS contacted and the land WAS checked out by plod and deemed suitable(landowner let me know they had been ) for ALL my calibres ie .243 .223 .22lr .17 hmr and fac air x 2, perhaps I should have told them not to bother as deker says its not necessary. and that once you have an open cert you no longer have to prove need?

 

KW

 

 

That statement is wrong, you still have to prove you need a firearm. Just because your ticket is open that only means you can shoot on any land that you have permission to shoot over and YOU think it is safe.

 

If you do not have any land to shoot on then there goes your reason to own a firearm.

 

My last renewal was in may of this year and my FEO just asked if I still shot at X farm and Y farm. My ticket is open on all vermin calibres that I have.

 

Agree! that statement is incorrect, kdubya has credited me with something I have never said!!

[Dekers]

If you change your primary land at your renewal, then if the land you submit is not already on the register it WILL have to be cleared regardless if you have an open ticket or not, you still have to prove a need.

 

KW

 

 

may not have been checked for you? your primary land must already be on the register as suitable if its not it MUST be checked

 

KW

 

 

it was not a statement it was a **** take!! read the context of the post!!

 

 

KW

 

 

I take it the 2 previous posts were also **** takes then, proving a need and having to get land cleared are different things!

 

Now, according to DaveK .....

 

IT DOESN'T NEED LEGISLATION AND THERE ISN'T ANY. It's at the discretion of each FLD to decide what evidence they want from you to justify good reason....... So you Don't need the land cleared according to Dave......

 

Time to move on perhaps.

 

ATB!!

[DaveK]

Time to move on perhaps.

 

ATB!!

Yes so please do. There's only you keeping this thread going. and not with reasoned argument either. Considering your profile claims you appear to be rather ill informed.

 

My last post on this thread. You're obviously an expert on the subject. Goodbye.

[kdubya]

I take it the 2 previous posts were also **** takes then, proving a need and having to get land cleared are different things!

 

Now, according to DaveK .....

 

IT DOESN'T NEED LEGISLATION AND THERE ISN'T ANY. It's at the discretion of each FLD to decide what evidence they want from you to justify good reason....... So you Don't need the land cleared according to Dave......

 

Time to move on perhaps.

 

ATB!!

 

 

bets bit of back tracking I have seen in along time, blame everyone else eh! but hey your the expert ( worlds full of them )

 

KW

[Dekers]

Yes so please do. There's only you keeping this thread going. and not with reasoned argument either. Considering your profile claims you appear to be rather ill informed.

 

My last post on this thread. You're obviously an expert on the subject. Goodbye.

 

 

DaveK, I'm not sure there was any need for that and kdubya made several statements of fact that I was unconvinced about!

 

Hence I asked for the legislation as I was unaware of any to support his claims.

 

What regions do is down to regions, that doesn't make it law and it doesn't mean land has to be cleared for your biggest, or frankly any calibre if you are an Open FAC holder, unless of course someone can come up with some legislation to back it that I am unaware of.

 

I'd say that is pretty well reasoned Then again I need to know the law better than some here!

 

ATB!!

[kdubya]

 

Perhaps another regional thing, as far as I am aware none of my land is specifically cleared for .308 (which I use), I know some is up to .243, I have NEVER had any issues at variation or renewal, and not a single piece of my land has EVER been checked for me!

 

 

right back to square one! PLEASE tell me how you first received an fac if NONE of the land you initially submitted had ever been cleared? how did you prove your need to own? my initial statement that the land must have already been on a suitability register stands? I also stand by the statement the continuing need to own at renewal needs to be satisfied!

and how did you get a .308 if you knew none of the land had ever been deemed suitable for that calibre? my own renewal needed clearance of my largest calibre even though my cert had been open for years.

 

Yes people can get an fac without having land ( gun clubs members, stalking receipts or syndicates being examples each qualifies the NEED to own) but to give out the impression that a quick chat with the feo is all that's needed is not realistic even Walter Mittyish (besides the feo does NOT grant the fac? the FLD manager countersigned by the CC does once ALL criteria are met the feo is simply checking PART of that criteria.

 

If you have your fac due to your "training" needs etc then say so? please don't give out the impression that anyone who has an open cert need not worry come renewal time as that's FALSE, I know a chap who is a full time water bailiff and who shoots so much that his ticket has sheets of extended ammo purchases attached to it, he still nearly was refused a renewal as he had lost his primary land and the land he offered was not deemed suitable, he had to go cap in hand to a friend who got him a formal permission on already cleared land ( that was northumberland!)

 

cheers KW

[Redgum]

Grow up girls, whatever, I'm sure theres a Roe buck that needs stalking out there and you all need abit of fresh air

[kdubya]

Grow up girls, whatever, I'm sure theres a Roe buck that needs stalking out there and you all need abit of fresh air

 

well but out then thats easy aint it?

 

people new to the game come on here for advice, and that advice should be realistic and truthfull not conjecture.

 

KW

[Dekers]

right back to square one! PLEASE tell me how you first received an fac if NONE of the land you initially submitted had ever been cleared? how did you prove your need to own? my initial statement that the land must have already been on a suitability register stands? I also stand by the statement the continuing need to own at renewal needs to be satisfied!

and how did you get a .308 if you knew none of the land had ever been deemed suitable for that calibre? my own renewal needed clearance of my largest calibre even though my cert had been open for years.

 

Yes people can get an fac without having land ( gun clubs members, stalking receipts or syndicates being examples each qualifies the NEED to own) but to give out the impression that a quick chat with the feo is all that's needed is not realistic even Walter Mittyish (besides the feo does NOT grant the fac? the FLD manager countersigned by the CC does once ALL criteria are met the feo is simply checking PART of that criteria.

 

If you have your fac due to your "training" needs etc then say so? please don't give out the impression that anyone who has an open cert need not worry come renewal time as that's FALSE, I know a chap who is a full time water bailiff and who shoots so much that his ticket has sheets of extended ammo purchases attached to it, he still nearly was refused a renewal as he had lost his primary land and the land he offered was not deemed suitable, he had to go cap in hand to a friend who got him a formal permission on already cleared land ( that was northumberland!)

 

cheers KW

 

 

kdubya

 

Please go back and spend some time reading everything I have posted here CAREFULLY!

 

You are talking a potential REGIONAL policy, that is NOT the law as far as I am aware, and if your pal had to comply that is his problem caused by his region, if there is no legislation to back up that region then an appeal by him may well have succeeded.

 

Please READ what I have posted, it's in the detail, I have maintained you must have a requirement/land, but that land does NOT have to be cleared for your largest calibre, or any calibre, as you have said it MUST be, if you have an Open certificate, if I am incorrect just show me the legislation and I will have learned something new.

 

Look, even I am getting bored with this, it's about the detail, read it carefully please!

 

...and if you still disagree please don't say another word about any of your mates or what any region wants, it holds no interest to me, and has as much validity as my region insisting I wear yellow boxers on the day of the interview...SHOW me legislation that says an Open Certificate holder must have land cleared for his biggest (or all) calibres upon renewal!

 

ATB!!

[kdubya]

kdubya

 

Please go back and spend some time reading everything I have posted here CAREFULLY!

 

You are talking a potential REGIONAL policy, that is NOT the law as far as I am aware, and if your pal had to comply that is his problem caused by his region, if there is no legislation to back up that region then an appeal by him may well have succeeded.

 

Please READ what I have posted, it's in the detail, I have maintained you must have a requirement/land, but that land does NOT have to be cleared for your largest calibre, or any calibre, as you have said it MUST be, if you have an Open certificate, if I am incorrect just show me the legislation and I will have learned something new.

 

Look, even I am getting bored with this, it's about the detail, read it carefully please!

 

...and if you still disagree please don't say another word about any of your mates or what any region wants, it holds no interest to me, and has as much validity as my region insisting I wear yellow boxers on the day of the interview...SHOW me legislation that says an Open Certificate holder must have land cleared for his biggest (or all) calibres upon renewal!

 

ATB!!

 

naughty boy you never answered the question just asked another! wonder why? anyway dont bother its probably like your origional statement IE tosh, next time my renewal comes up and I decide to change my primary land I think I will go for 270 magnum and if my feo / fld tell me they need to check its suitable I will tell them that according to the world of deker they are bang out of order and that they should meet my demands forthwith without any checks! oh and I WILL point out to them that they dont know what they are on about.

 

anyway had enough me ribs wont take much more battering still you have brightened my day Im sure the last time I was in a world like yours I was in a boat at disneyland didnt laugh so much either and it cost me a sight more

 

cheery bye KW

[barrelsniffer]

Im NOT joining in the arguement..but im also open FAC for almost 15 yrs...my primary land is in wales, not my local region..anyway my mate has applied for his FAC and i managed to get him permission on my farms totalling around 5-6000 acres.on a few farms ... now hes having to wait while the police do a check of the land...YET when i put the land down about 8 yrs ago.it was all passed upto 22-250/243...now they say to my mate its NOT been checked and needs doing again as its not on register...

 

Yet when i renewed my fac 2 yrs ago..that land was my primary ?? NOW they say it needs checking for my mate to get his FAC so any ideas ?

 

Mick

Edited August 14, 2010 by mickyfinn

[Dekers]

naughty boy you never answered the question just asked another! wonder why? anyway dont bother its probably like your origional statement IE tosh, next time my renewal comes up and I decide to change my primary land I think I will go for 270 magnum and if my feo / fld tell me they need to check its suitable I will tell them that according to the world of deker they are bang out of order and that they should meet my demands forthwith without any checks! oh and I WILL point out to them that they dont know what they are on about.

 

anyway had enough me ribs wont take much more battering still you have brightened my day Im sure the last time I was in a world like yours I was in a boat at disneyland didnt laugh so much either and it cost me a sight more

 

cheery bye KW

 

 

It is apparent you have no sensible response, what on earth are you on about, this is not a points scoring exercise, a question has been asked and you have made strong factual responses with NO backing and made Disneyland suggestions when you have been asked to justify your comments.

 

Read my posts, they have been consistent and accurate, you have been all over the shop with inaccurate statements.

 

You are the one that made factual statements, I see no backing, I'm not after a war, if you were correct I was happy to learn.

 

So where is the legislation, where is anything but your mates experiences and your region flexing their muscles!

 

Please do not make statements with no backing, this is a serious subject.

 

I have 2 current FAC's and a SGC all legally held, I do not have land checks for calibre and the law is the same for me as you.

 

By all means tell your region they know jack on your next renewal, I have had to explain various aspects of firearms law to my FEO on several occasions!

 

Probably because I spend more time checking Firearms law than you or my FEO, who was only interested in his part time job as a shotgun coach...and has just recently "retired" leaving, as the new man said...a bit of a backlog

 

ATB!!

 

PS...My FIRST FAC was OPEN from Day One, that's why I didn't need any land/calibre checks! You make a lot of uninformed assumptions and statements! I am also currently a Deer Mentor for Thames Valley, the Met and Wiltshire Police as well.

Next Question?

Edited August 14, 2010 by Dekers

[magman]

Im NOT joining in the arguement..but im also open FAC for almost 15 yrs...my primary land is in wales, not my local region..anyway my mate has applied for his FAC and i managed to get him permission on my farms totalling around 5-6000 acres.on a few farms ... now hes having to wait while the police do a check of the land...YET when i put the land down about 8 yrs ago.it was all passed upto 22-250/243...now they say to my mate its NOT been checked and needs doing again as its not on register...

 

Yet when i renewed my fac 2 yrs ago..that land was my primary ?? NOW they say it needs checking for my mate to get his FAC so any ideas ?

 

Mick

 

 

Hi Mick

Cheshire like to re check land every 5 years so ive been told

[Dekers]

Im NOT joining in the arguement..but im also open FAC for almost 15 yrs...my primary land is in wales, not my local region..anyway my mate has applied for his FAC and i managed to get him permission on my farms totalling around 5-6000 acres.on a few farms ... now hes having to wait while the police do a check of the land...YET when i put the land down about 8 yrs ago.it was all passed upto 22-250/243...now they say to my mate its NOT been checked and needs doing again as its not on register...

 

Yet when i renewed my fac 2 yrs ago..that land was my primary ?? NOW they say it needs checking for my mate to get his FAC so any ideas ?

 

Mick

 

 

Hi Mick

Cheshire like to re check land every 5 years so ive been told

 

 

Don't get concerned, there is no argument here and I'm not dragging you into anything.

 

This is an interesting one, you are Open I believe, but the odds are a new application may well not be.

 

I was in a VERY similar situation when my lad applied for his co terminus about 2 or 3 years back, he had moved some 47 miles away and is in another region, yet he has spent many many days out with me on my land and is authorized to shoot with me.

 

Bear in mind my FAC is Open and the vast majority of my land has never been cleared for anything to the best of my knowledge.

 

He sent in something in the order of 26 permissions (mine with him listed) at the time of application and his region originally insisted that the land would all have to be checked.

 

Discussion followed and sense was seen, first off they really didn't want the problem of arranging 26 site visits and following assertions from me he was safe and sensible and I would vouch for him his co terminus flowed through the system!

 

BUT, his is NOT Open!....yet!

 

He does nevertheless have a condition that allows him to use ANY of his guns on ANY of my land, even if the land is not cleared, whilst out with me. Anyone who knows anything about FAC knows that a condition like that is exceptionally useful and unusual!

[magman]

Don't get concerned, there is no argument here and I'm not dragging you into anything.

 

This is an interesting one, you are Open I believe, but the odds are a new application may well not be.

 

I was in a VERY similar situation when my lad applied for his co terminus about 2 or 3 years back, he had moved some 47 miles away and is in another region, yet he has spent many many days out with me on my land and is authorized to shoot with me.

 

Bear in mind my FAC is Open and the vast majority of my land has never been cleared for anything to the best of my knowledge.

 

He sent in something in the order of 26 permissions (mine with him listed) at the time of application and his region originally insisted that the land would all have to be checked.

 

Discussion followed and sense was seen, first off they really didn't want the problem of arranging 26 site visits and following assertions from me he was safe and sensible and I would vouch for him his co terminus flowed through the system!

 

BUT, his is NOT Open!....yet!

 

He does nevertheless have a condition that allows him to use ANY of his guns on ANY of my land, even if the land is not cleared, whilst out with me. Anyone who knows anything about FAC knows that a condition like that is exceptionally useful and unusual!

 

Just how is that worded on his fac

[Dekers]

Just how is that worded on his fac

 

I don't recall 100%...but it is simple

 

...and along the lines of...hold on...I think I actually have a copy somewhere..

 

I'll be back!!

[Dekers]

Just how is that worded on his fac

 

 

I don't recall 100%...but it is simple

 

...and along the lines of...hold on...I think I actually have a copy somewhere..

 

I'll be back!!

 

Here it is..I keep a copy of his Condition in on my computer.

 

..the get out of jail free card....

 

Actually when I read it again again it may be better than I thought..........the last bit which I have highlighted..

 

You may accompany your father on any areas of land that he has permission to shoot on and use your firearms when you are with him or you have written permission from the landowner.

 

Useful hey!

 

Edit

I think what they mean in the last bit is that he can shoot on any of MY land if he has permission from the landowner (without me), not necessarily on any of his land without checks! Hell, who knows but he can certainly use his guns whilst out with me on my land even if it is not cleared!

Edited August 14, 2010 by Dekers

[Bazooka Joe]

He does nevertheless have a condition that allows him to use ANY of his guns on ANY of my land, even if the land is not cleared

 

Surely that contradicts itself, he has a Closed Ticket, yet that condition gives him the same as an Open Cert....

[Raja Clavata]

Im NOT joining in the arguement..but im also open FAC for almost 15 yrs...my primary land is in wales, not my local region..anyway my mate has applied for his FAC and i managed to get him permission on my farms totalling around 5-6000 acres.on a few farms ... now hes having to wait while the police do a check of the land...YET when i put the land down about 8 yrs ago.it was all passed upto 22-250/243...now they say to my mate its NOT been checked and needs doing again as its not on register...

 

Yet when i renewed my fac 2 yrs ago..that land was my primary ?? NOW they say it needs checking for my mate to get his FAC so any ideas ?

 

Mick

 

Can't speak for other counties but I know for a fact that not all land cleared in Essex gets put on the national register. A mate of mine was granted .22 CF on land we both shoot on and when I phoned his approving FEO up to make sure it was on the register for my FEO to check for my variation (he's Essex mine's Met) he said he wasn't adding it. At the same time he confirmed another permission I have was cleared for .243 and told me to put the variation in against that land. My variation got delayed when my Met FEO couldn't find it approved on the register. After some follow-up it turned out the same Essex FEO had approved that land and it had been mis-filed (or summit). It's a complete shambles.

[Dekers]

Surely that contradicts itself, he has a Closed Ticket, yet that condition gives him the same as an Open Cert....

 

Perhaps not quite, pop back and have a look at the EDIT!

 

In addition I am OPEN, so I make the call it is safe, so an arguement to suggest I have cleared it for him!!

 

Have you known anything in firearms law to be simple or straightforward, bottom line is he does not have an Open FAC but he can use his guns with me.

 

This stems from the very simple and crazy situation that as the OCCUPIER of land I can lend anyone (FAC holder or NOT) any of my rifles to use in my company!

 

Therefore, I could (for example) give my lad my .308 to use but he could not legally use his own .22lr on the land. This is patently stupid and when I explained the situation to his region, it was hardly debated at all, they agreed he could use his own guns whilst with me!

 

Knowing more about Firarms law than the FEO does help sometimes!

 

Hell..this is wandering, legal firearms consultancy by PM please, when we can discuss fees as well!

 

ATB!!

Edited August 14, 2010 by Dekers

[hawkeye]

It is apparent you have no sensible response, what on earth are you on about, this is not a points scoring exercise, a question has been asked and you have made strong factual responses with NO backing and made Disneyland suggestions when you have been asked to justify your comments.

 

Read my posts, they have been consistent and accurate, you have been all over the shop with inaccurate statements.

 

You are the one that made factual statements, I see no backing, I'm not after a war, if you were correct I was happy to learn.

 

So where is the legislation, where is anything but your mates experiences and your region flexing their muscles!

 

Please do not make statements with no backing, this is a serious subject.

 

I have 2 current FAC's and a SGC all legally held, I do not have land checks for calibre and the law is the same for me as you.

 

By all means tell your region they know jack on your next renewal, I have had to explain various aspects of firearms law to my FEO on several occasions!

 

Probably because I spend more time checking Firearms law than you or my FEO, who was only interested in his part time job as a shotgun coach...and has just recently "retired" leaving, as the new man said...a bit of a backlog

 

ATB!!

 

PS...My FIRST FAC was OPEN from Day One, that's why I didn't need any land/calibre checks! You make a lot of uninformed assumptions and statements! I am also currently a Deer Mentor for Thames Valley, the Met and Wiltshire Police as well.

Next Question?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why do you need to have 2 FAC's

Edited August 14, 2010 by hawkeye

[Dekers]

Why do you need to have 2 FAC's

 

Unusual hey!

 

I have my own personal FAC and as Secretary of my Home Office approved shooting club at Bisley I am also FAC holder for all Club tools, that's the way its done! 2 completely separate FAC's, BOTH with my name at the top!

 

ATB!!