17HMR 16" barrel bullet expansion

[wannabefisher]

Y local gun shop told me recently that 17HMR bullets expand more reliably when fired from 16" barrels than from longer ones. This came about because I mentioned that from my 19" barrels I get a small but significant number that go straight through a bunny. Apparently Edgar Brothers, who import Hornady ammo to the UK are running tests to see if they can get to the bottom of it.

 

Anyone else heard about this?

[Frenchieboy]

I don't know if it is just me or what but since I had my CZ 452 Varmint (17HMR) cut down from a 20 inch to a 16 inch barrel not only does it seem to be shooting more accurately (It was quite good before anyway) but it seems to do a lot more damage to any rabbits that I hit with it, particularly with head shots where it seems to take half the head straight off. (I use Hornady V-Max 17gr Blue Tips)

[kent]

Sounds like a pitch to me It don't have a whole heap of difference on speed at least considering retained velocity will still vary with range also so i would say if it looks like it, smells like it then it probebly is indeed BUll ****

[Dekers]

Y local gun shop told me recently that 17HMR bullets expand more reliably when fired from 16" barrels than from longer ones. This came about because I mentioned that from my 19" barrels I get a small but significant number that go straight through a bunny. Apparently Edgar Brothers, who import Hornady ammo to the UK are running tests to see if they can get to the bottom of it.

 

Anyone else heard about this?

 

 

I can't think of a single reason why and inch or two of barrel would make a SIGNIFICANT difference. I also struggle to believe Edgar Bros are running tests. Distance from quarry is a far more likely answer, as to, is what the bullet actually hits on the quarry!

 

Please let us know Edgar Bros test results from whoever told you they were running tests!

[Evil Elvis]

Its sounds unfeasible....BUT I have the 20" barrell and I'd say at least 3/4 of the rabbits I shoot it goes straight through and 100% if I use fmjs(which I dont anymore)

[wannabefisher]

Its sounds unfeasible....BUT I have the 20" barrell and I'd say at least 3/4 of the rabbits I shoot it goes straight through and 100% if I use fmjs(which I dont anymore)

 

75%?

 

When I say straight through I mean it goes through with no expansion (hornady blue tips). Normally I think I've missed the rabbit because it has no report at all, but then it falls down dead. Upon inspection theres usually no sign (unless you skin it) of any damage whatsoever. It happens at ranges from 30m upwards, maybe 5% of the time.

 

I agree that what I was told sounds unlikely, but the gun shop man reckoned it was a well known phenomenon so I thought I would see if anyone else had heard about it.

[Beardo]

i'm still convinced those hornady blue tips don't expand as well as any other brand, i've now run out of them and gone back to Remington gold tips and they seem so much more explosive.

the length of barrel thing is nonsense.

[Evil Elvis]

When I say straight through I mean it goes through with no expansion (hornady blue tips).

 

yep, thats what i meant!!

[mikee]

i'm still convinced those hornady blue tips don't expand as well as any other brand, i've now run out of them and gone back to Remington gold tips and they seem so much more explosive.

the length of barrel thing is nonsense.

 

 

I agree, just think the hornady are not as good, i tried as many makes as i could get when i first bought my hmr now i just use rem gold tips, theyre faster and more devastating and almost always expand

 

mikee

[Dekers]

i'm still convinced those hornady blue tips don't expand as well as any other brand, i've now run out of them and gone back to Remington gold tips and they seem so much more explosive.

the length of barrel thing is nonsense.

 

 

Interesting, I have to say I've done a good 2000 of the Blue tips now and they work for me!

 

My HMR has had about 300-400 Remington through it, none for a year or so, and I can't say I really noticed any difference.

 

I have heard suggestions that Remington are faster, but their own spec lists it as 2550ft sec and 245 ft lb which seems identical to everyone elses 17HMR.

 

I'm struggling to understand the differences. Perhaps it is something to do with the different coloured dies used in the tip having an effect on the integrity of the plastic and making it more or less frangible?

[strix]

This may be of interest extracted from:

Compared: .17 HMR Varmint Ammunition

 

By Chuck Hawks

 

Chronograph results

 

CCI - high 2613 fps; low 2517 fps; extreme spread 96 fps; average = 2559 fps.

FEDERAL - high 2631 fps; low 2539 fps; extreme spread 92 fps; average = 2595 fps.

REMINGTON - high 2626 fps; low 2591 fps; extreme spread 35 fps; average = 2609 fps.

HORNADY - high 2698 fps; low 2621 fps; extreme spread 77 fps; average = 2658 fps.

 

The most unusual result from our chronographing is that all four brands of .17 HMR ammunition delivered significantly higher average velocities than the factory specifications call for. The CCI ammo exceed its advertised MV by 34 fps, the Federal load exceeded its published MV by 45 fps, the Remington load exceeded its published MV by 59 fps, and the Hornady ammo exceeded its catalog MV by a whopping 108 fps. And this is based on instrumental velocity at 10' (rather than actual MV) from a chronograph that is historically on the stingy side. This result is almost unheard of in all my years of chronograph testing.

 

Shooting results

 

It's interesting to see actual velocity figures for different brand of ammunition, but to me the most interesting part of this comparison is the range results. Certainly it was the most difficult to compile. Fortunately, shooting .17 HMR rifles is really fun. They are accurate, flat shooting, quiet, and have practically no recoil.

 

HORNADY - smallest group 5/8"; largest group 1 3/4"; mean average group = 1 1/8".

REMINGTON - smallest group 13/16"; largest group 2 3/8"; mean average group = 1 13/32".

FEDERAL - smallest group 11/16"; largest group 2 3/4"; mean average group = 1 13/32".

CCI - smallest group 1/2"; largest group 2 1/4"; mean average group = 1 17/32".

These results speak for themselves. With the smallest 100 yard groups running from .5 minute of angle (MOA) to .8125 MOA and the average group size between 1.125 MOA and 1.531 MOA across all four brands, this is obviously very accurate factory loaded ammunition.

 

FOR FULL ARTICLE USE THIS LINK:

 

http://www.chuckhawks.com/compared_17HMR_ammo.htm

[njc110381]

From a logical point of view you would expect it to be the opposite. At any given range the velocity form the longer barrel should be slightly faster and generally the faster a bullet impacts the more it breaks up.

 

Can't see there being any truth in it myself!

[Beardo]

I presume that test was with the hornady red tips. I'd like to see if there was any difference with the mach2 blue heads

[Dekers]

This may be of interest extracted from:

Compared: .17 HMR Varmint Ammunition

 

By Chuck Hawks

 

Chronograph results

 

CCI - high 2613 fps; low 2517 fps; extreme spread 96 fps; average = 2559 fps.

FEDERAL - high 2631 fps; low 2539 fps; extreme spread 92 fps; average = 2595 fps.

REMINGTON - high 2626 fps; low 2591 fps; extreme spread 35 fps; average = 2609 fps.

HORNADY - high 2698 fps; low 2621 fps; extreme spread 77 fps; average = 2658 fps.

 

The most unusual result from our chronographing is that all four brands of .17 HMR ammunition delivered significantly higher average velocities than the factory specifications call for. The CCI ammo exceed its advertised MV by 34 fps, the Federal load exceeded its published MV by 45 fps, the Remington load exceeded its published MV by 59 fps, and the Hornady ammo exceeded its catalog MV by a whopping 108 fps. And this is based on instrumental velocity at 10' (rather than actual MV) from a chronograph that is historically on the stingy side. This result is almost unheard of in all my years of chronograph testing.

 

Shooting results

 

It's interesting to see actual velocity figures for different brand of ammunition, but to me the most interesting part of this comparison is the range results. Certainly it was the most difficult to compile. Fortunately, shooting .17 HMR rifles is really fun. They are accurate, flat shooting, quiet, and have practically no recoil.

 

HORNADY - smallest group 5/8"; largest group 1 3/4"; mean average group = 1 1/8".

REMINGTON - smallest group 13/16"; largest group 2 3/8"; mean average group = 1 13/32".

FEDERAL - smallest group 11/16"; largest group 2 3/4"; mean average group = 1 13/32".

CCI - smallest group 1/2"; largest group 2 1/4"; mean average group = 1 17/32".

These results speak for themselves. With the smallest 100 yard groups running from .5 minute of angle (MOA) to .8125 MOA and the average group size between 1.125 MOA and 1.531 MOA across all four brands, this is obviously very accurate factory loaded ammunition.

 

FOR FULL ARTICLE USE THIS LINK:

 

http://www.chuckhawks.com/compared_17HMR_ammo.htm

 

 

All these things make for interesting reading, and this of course suggests Hornady are the fastest and most accurate. This is on paper of course so makes no mention of terminal ballistic effect on quarry.

 

Who knows, I have chronoed several at the barrel and never got any of them as high as the suggested 2550ft sec. Is that chrono tolerance or what??

 

We all know that some barrels favour some rounds more than others as well.

 

I have to say when my HMR was brand new it really like Hornady more than anything else I tried, but after several thousand rounds I now find it almost equally at home with any 17g, it even puts in good groups with the 20g now even though they were awful in the early days!

Edited August 29, 2010 by Dekers

[wannabefisher]

I started out using the remingtons, then went to hornady red, then blue when they became available. I never found POI changed at all between different brands. I've always been under the impression (and believe it is well "known") that all of the 17HMR BT ammo comes from the hornady factory, regardless of what the package says, and they are supposed to be identical except for the colour.

 

However, where I buy my ammo the blue tips are £85 a slab, and the red tips £115(I seem to recall). I know that initially this was meant to be Hornady dumping some HM2 bullets, but then they made up another batch after that.

 

If the blue and the red tips are identical, what possible incentive would hornady have for selling one of them at a 25% discount? Conversely though, if they were different, why does Hornady not market the difference so as to justify the massive price differential?

 

It doesn't add up to me.

[scotland rifles]

well i had no problems with my 16" cz, i did some tests and published the results on the BBS but as i am banned i can't get the thread for you to read.

 

the blue tips (this is what i read on a UAS web site) where being used up on the 17hmr as the lack of interest in the HM" meant they had loads left after a long production run.

 

the test proved that the RED tips opened up better than the BLUE tips fired from the same rifle at the same target etc etc.

 

i am now back with the RED tips in my new rifle a 22" sako quad and they are just what the doctor ordered when it comes to removing rabbits from my golf courses, and that fact that i do not eat rabbit helps too.

 

bob.

[strix]

That article does say:

 

"It is common knowledge in the trade that all four brands of .17 HMR ammunition are being produced by CCI in their Idaho factory. The load specifications and bullets used in the various brands vary, however, so it would be a mistake to assume that all four brands will shoot equally well in any given rifle."

 

It also says:

 

"Remington's Premium "Gold Box" load offers a 17 grain AccuTip-V varmint bullet at a MV of 2550 fps and ME of 245 ft. lbs. The claimed 100 yard figures are 1901 fps and 136 ft. lbs. This bullet is identical to the Hornady V-MAX projectile, except it has a gold plastic tip instead of a red one."

 

It makes no reference to the blue tip ammo.

[apache]

well i had no problems with my 16" cz, i did some tests and published the results on the BBS but as i am banned i can't get the thread for you to read.

 

I will copy and paste

 

1, 1" of compressed good quality paper, http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/3287/hmrtesting001.jpg

 

2, the target. http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3...testing003.jpg

 

3, the shot placement. http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/5498/hmrtesting007.jpg

 

4, the exit holes in the target backing. http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/5...testing007.jpg

 

5, both exit holes in the paper, http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/549/hmrtesting010.jpg

 

6, red exit hole close up. http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/3...testing008.jpg

 

7, blue exit hole close up. http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/5374/hmrtesting009.jpg

 

8, the target back exits for both blue and red. http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/5696/hmrtesting012.jpg

 

the target was set at 50 meters and the rifle was shot first to worm it up, the ammo was mine and the rifle was Nico243, the independent witness was a lad called Lee,

 

no tampering to the targets or ammo holes .

 

I know its not a top spec test but even i can see that the RED 17gr hornady seems to have expanded a bit more than the blue.

 

not conclusive but i tried to prove to myself that there is a difference.

 

I'm happy now,

 

This is the full thread for those with access http://www.airgunbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406202

 

Why did you get banned?

[Dekers]

If there is a repeatable difference in penetration or expansion of ANY of the 17g HMR the question has to be WHY??:hmm:?, they are apparently all the same weight, shape, size and construction and all going at the same speed...according to the manufacturers published spec!

 

Edited August 29, 2010 by Dekers

[scotland rifles]

I will copy and paste

 

1, 1" of compressed good quality paper, http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/3287/hmrtesting001.jpg

 

2, the target. http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3...testing003.jpg

 

3, the shot placement. http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/5498/hmrtesting007.jpg

 

4, the exit holes in the target backing. http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/5...testing007.jpg

 

5, both exit holes in the paper, http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/549/hmrtesting010.jpg

 

6, red exit hole close up. http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/3...testing008.jpg

 

7, blue exit hole close up. http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/5374/hmrtesting009.jpg

 

8, the target back exits for both blue and red. http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/5696/hmrtesting012.jpg

 

the target was set at 50 meters and the rifle was shot first to worm it up, the ammo was mine and the rifle was Nico243, the independent witness was a lad called Lee,

 

no tampering to the targets or ammo holes .

 

I know its not a top spec test but even i can see that the RED 17gr hornady seems to have expanded a bit more than the blue.

 

not conclusive but i tried to prove to myself that there is a difference.

 

I'm happy now,

 

This is the full thread for those with access http://www.airgunbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406202

 

Why did you get banned?

 

 

well its a ongoing saga.

 

i had a pop at one of the moderators and i posted a thread that was rather demeaning to the BBS and some of the moderators,

 

so i have been banned from the site.

 

i have asked a few times if they could let me know if im allowed back on but to no avail nor a response.

 

bob.

 

thank you for posting the thread most kind.

 

as all can see it was a basic test but it worked for me and I'm still convinced that the blue was of a ever so slightly harder compound,

 

bob.

[Dekers]

well its a ongoing saga.

 

i had a pop at one of the moderators and i posted a thread that was rather demeaning to the BBS and some of the moderators,

 

so i have been banned from the site.

 

i have asked a few times if they could let me know if im allowed back on but to no avail nor a response.

 

bob.

 

thank you for posting the thread most kind.

 

as all can see it was a basic test but it worked for me and I'm still convinced that the blue was of a ever so slightly harder compound,

 

bob.

 

OFF TOPIC

If we started a club of everyone banned from BBS it would probably be bigger than the site itself. It is a strange setup in many ways where reality, fact and good old fashioned debate gets you banned from someones private club if he doesn't agree with you!

[Evil Elvis]

Bob, while the test is interesting, it doesnt take into consideration live prey.

 

If you head shoot a rabbit.....9/10 it will expand the ammo, usually with "icky" results...........

 

If you shoot it in the body, it becomes a lottery, i.e if you hit it in the chest front on you are likley to hit rib cage....hit it further back and its likley to zip straight through as there are no bones or organs hard enough to cause the expansion. Hit it in the leg and the leg will be removed!!

 

How many people have taken head shots (with the exception of the 20gr fmj) and NOT had an expansion?

[webber]

I've used Remmington Gold Tips since I got my Anshutz, the rifle likes them, so do I, and the bunnies don't get on with them too well, as half of their head ends up a few feet away.

 

webber

[the running man]

This old chestnut again ah? The great .17hmr debate. Well to put my side over,I find accuracy excellent,I've a cz452 american 16" and use the remmy gold. I've had mixed expansion at various distances,either makes a mess or goes straight through,yes through the head too ! the only constant is with very young rabbits when hit they all have their insides resting on the ground when picked up. I've given up trying to figure out why,as long as they die when shot,I don't care.

[Frenchieboy]

This debate will go on for ever and can still make interesting reading for those that shoot a 17HMR! When we are comparing different ammunitions and their expansion rates (when used on live quarry) there are so many factors to take into consideration, some of which will never be identical!

Even if we could guarantee the exact same shot placement (POI) on every rabbit (Even a couple of milimeters can make a significant difference) there would still be a difference between the individual rabbits according to the age and size of the rabbit and how solid/mature/brittle that rabbit's bones are compared to any other rabbits bones. We also need to considder the angle of the bullet as well as the POI - Hitting a rabbit in the chest at right angles to you are more likely to do more damage because of the likelyhood of hitting several ribs as well as both lungs (and hopefully the heart) than say hitting one in exactly the same spot at 40 degrees to you where you might find that the bullet exits through the stomach and may well not have made any contact with a bone or a lung.

I have used Remington 17gh Premiers, Hornady 17gr Red Tips and Remington 17gr Blue Tips and have not noticed any significant difference between the three - I have had runners with all three when I have "pulled" the shot and ended up hitting them in the stomach (Bad and inexcuseably poor shooting on my part and nothing to do with the ammunition or the rifle) just as I have decapitated rabbits when they are head shots (Not a pretty sight but extremely effective).

The most important thing in my opinion is where you hit them with a 17HMR which is why I always try to get a head shot to avoid "runners" - I believe that as long as you hit them in the head it is going to do an awful lot of damage and cause an instant death what ever type of ammo you use.