What can a Clay Association do for you

[HDAV]

Having read the thredad here: CPSA CEO I was wondering what other people thought an association should do for the clay shooter.

 

Might be of help to some people who read this board:

 

I would like to see more presence at grounds and shoots with member benefits that go beyond a magazine:

 

Not having been a member tho i am not best placed to know what is of benefit

[apache]

I'm not convinced it helps to have things fragmented. Why not have a single voice for these issues rather than a number of quieter voices?

 

I think the BASC is the biggest voice for shooting and after recent gun related tragedies they were on the news and radio defending the sport and explaining the issues.

 

That said there is more linked to the rural way of life and bloodsports etc that the CA is more all encompassing. We need to stand together not bicker between ourselves.

 

We need them all together as the 'Rural Sport Alliance' or similar.

[HDAV]

We need them all together as the 'Rural Sport Alliance' or similar.

 

Thats a good idea, is there a need for separate associations (apart from jobs for the boys etc) I am going to a BASC event on Thursday and if anyone asks me to join i think i will...

 

Could the BASC not run clay shooting competitions? Should they? I understand the needs for specialist area's but do they all have to be separate associations? Or does that make the market more competitive and result in better service for members? Or just higher annual fees with duplications?

[Dunkield]

A centralised database of shoots would be handy, most reasonable ones have their own site with fixtures, but it would be nice to stick them all together somehow.

[HDAV]

A centralised database of shoots would be handy, most reasonable ones have their own site with fixtures, but it would be nice to stick them all together somehow.

 

That woulkd be good there are a few already but one upto date one with info on things like cartridges (plastic or Fibre) if they offer lessons etc would be good I know there is a listing in pull but it doesn't have a lot of detail.

[Chris Bb]

A centralised database of shoots would be handy, most reasonable ones have their own site with fixtures, but it would be nice to stick them all together somehow.

If everybody contributed to this http://www.squiresclose.net/claytube/index.php a site being developed by one of our own members we would be there already!

 

Pete, take the cue.............

 

[Mungler]

I don't know why I am bothering to type this because the CPSA is just not in a position to fix itself, however, here goes:

 

Get all grounds on board - not with any ridiculous or onerous set of rules or at a cost that would see the average ground owner raise 2 fingers but with some sort of blanket level of cover - I am not talking about just insurance cover but a package.

 

The package would include webhosting on the CPSA website such that *all* shooting grounds can lodge shoot details, directions, contact details, opening hours and yes, scores. Any other technical trickery such that people can subscribe to text alerts etc would be useful.

 

So much non registered shooting is word of mouth. The recent new Essex shoot set up by Phil Moss shows this - I can't find a website for it. I think I won the pool shoot. Who knows? I don't even know where or when the next one is. I got a flyer left on my car but the Bozzos cleared that away. Anyways, his first shoot was a disaster but the last shoot was actually fantastic - really good and challenging (not daft and unhittable) targets. I would go again. The only reason I went the second time was because Bagsy told me about it. Where's the website? How difficult can it be?

 

In addition the ground owners should be offered some form of legal protection policy that would kick in and pay specialist lawyers and planners in the event of noise complaints, planning issues etc. Something that doesn't cost a lot of money but adds value. You would have thought that if the CPSA is placing insurance for all shooters and shooting grounds they ought to be able to score the best deal by bulk purchase / volume.

 

Once you get all the grounds on board, the shooters will follow.

 

If you boil it down, to the average clay shooter the CPSA is nothing but a provider of insurance and an organiser and facilitator of competitions and scores - it's not that difficult and is nothing more than a glorified operation of a spreadsheet. The CPSA website is about 4 years out of date with technology and current trends - but hey no doubt they made a poor first choice / investment and have been throwing good money after bad ever since.

 

I would suggest a CPSA forum, but it would be nothing but political slanging.

 

I reckon BASC could do all of the above - BASC could chance the initial investment of a free centralised clay shooting portal and a free upload section for ground owners. Hell, the whole thing could be sponsored by the likes of promatic and the clay manufacturers.

 

One of the best attended Essex events is the inter club contest held once a year at Arnolds Farm - hundreds and hundreds of shooters and not a CPSA tent in sight. What about County based inter club cups etc. like local football and darts leagues? It doesn't all have to be about registered AAA, AA, A etc. The club and team events appear to be an untapped market - the CPSA only appears to cater for the lonesome individual registered shooter. Again, a dwindling market.

 

Hey ho.

[webber]

I don't know why I am bothering to type this because the CPSA is just not in a position to fix itself, however, here goes:

 

Get all grounds on board - not with any ridiculous or onerous set of rules or at a cost that would see the average ground owner raise 2 fingers but with some sort of blanket level of cover - I am not talking about just insurance cover but a package.

 

The package would include webhosting on the CPSA website such that *all* shooting grounds can lodge shoot details, directions, contact details, opening hours and yes, scores. Any other technical trickery such that people can subscribe to text alerts etc would be useful.

 

So much non registered shooting is word of mouth. The recent new Essex shoot set up by Phil Moss shows this - I can't find a website for it. I think I won the pool shoot. Who knows? I don't even know where or when the next one is. I got a flyer left on my car but the Bozzos cleared that away. Anyways, his first shoot was a disaster but the last shoot was actually fantastic - really good and challenging (not daft and unhittable) targets. I would go again. The only reason I went the second time was because Bagsy told me about it. Where's the website? How difficult can it be?

 

In addition the ground owners should be offered some form of legal protection policy that would kick in and pay specialist lawyers and planners in the event of noise complaints, planning issues etc. Something that doesn't cost a lot of money but adds value. You would have thought that if the CPSA is placing insurance for all shooters and shooting grounds they ought to be able to score the best deal by bulk purchase / volume.

 

Once you get all the grounds on board, the shooters will follow.

 

If you boil it down, to the average clay shooter the CPSA is nothing but a provider of insurance and an organiser and facilitator of competitions and scores - it's not that difficult and is nothing more than a glorified operation of a spreadsheet. The CPSA website is about 4 years out of date with technology and current trends - but hey no doubt they made a poor first choice / investment and have been throwing good money after bad ever since.

 

I would suggest a CPSA forum, but it would be nothing but political slanging.

 

I reckon BASC could do all of the above - BASC could chance the initial investment of a free centralised clay shooting portal and a free upload section for ground owners. Hell, the whole thing could be sponsored by the likes of promatic and the clay manufacturers.

 

One of the best attended Essex events is the inter club contest held once a year at Arnolds Farm - hundreds and hundreds of shooters and not a CPSA tent in sight. What about County based inter club cups etc. like local football and darts leagues? It doesn't all have to be about registered AAA, AA, A etc. The club and team events appear to be an untapped market - the CPSA only appears to cater for the lonesome individual registered shooter. Again, a dwindling market.

 

Hey ho.

 

Well, you did ask!

 

webber

[HDAV]

Good reply, apparently there is a local league round here never seen anything about it, perhaps it's just too small a sport for anyone to bother with too closed and introvert? Yet seems to be growing organically with no official promotion hopefully 2012 will give a boost with some positive coverage but who is going to push for it?

[Mungler]

What the CPSA needs to do is stay away from the boring stuff that keeps getting rolled out.

 

No one seriously gives a **** about prize money apart from a handful of the most gobby. Besides, the sport probably has the lowest value prizes known to any Olympic sport. I mean, you hit a 147 in ******* snooker and they are ******* and moaning because in the old days they got a Bentley for it. And as for Darts, well you don't get that much gold dripping off your neck and fingers on £50 high guns do you?

 

The training academy stuff - I have been shooting clays for 4 years every weekend and this academy stuff has *never* come up in a conversation and nor have I ever heard of anyone talking about it, apart from bleating on forums. I don't know what it is, how it works but I know it is ******* irrelevant in the extreme.

 

Internal disputes - sack the ******* lot and get it run by some ex-Tescos store managers who have a track record of managing, delivering and all within a budget. Hell it could be delivering the milk every morning for all I care - at least it gets done and without any drama. I am sure they could do a better job of running the nuts and bolts of the CPSA.

 

Don't get distracted by or pushed to cater / appease the vocal minority. Look at the stats. Look at the % of members that gave a monkeys and voted at the oh so amazing AGM coup (what a fuss about nothing). The question is, are those that didn't vote disenchanted, not bothered or realise that it's all futile and will achieve and change nothing. Look at the level of churn in membership. Start appealing to a broader church - you can still cater for the elite CPSA shooters - give then a prize pot of £50 and a spreadsheet of their rankings - job done. If they don't like it - well where are they going to go eh? They are used to ******* and moaning so a bit more won't change anything for them.

[Whitebridges]

I've been reading posts from Mungler for 4 years or more now and he don't half talk a lot of sense.

[David BASC]

I agree!!!

 

David

[Dunkield]

Pity the question was what should an association do, not the CPSA

[Mungler]

The CPSA is "an association" smarty pants; hence the letter "A".

 

My examples and suggestions were directed towards the CPSA being an association of clay pigeon shooters.

[Catamong]

Hmmm....those grapes are tasting pretty sour down Basildon way today..??

 

It's all very well knocking the CPSA, who, by whatever yardstick you employ, have been badly run and managed for as long as I can remember, but don't knock the "elite CPSA shooters", as you call them, most of whom are actually pretty nice guys, (and gals) once you get to know them.

 

Clay Pigeon shooting is one of the very few sports we Brits do really well at, if our shooters were as abysmal as our footballers then I could understand your comments. Don't misinterpret the apparent aloofness of some "top" shooters, they're merely concentrating hard on shooting a good score, which means nothing to you but a lot to them.

 

The fact is, by jacking in the CPSA after only a few months membership, you're denying yourself the opportunity to shoot for your County of Essex, the South East Region and perhaps even England..?? You're destined to shoot forever alongside the camo clad, pump wielding, safety catch forgetting, uninsured mass of Sunday morning "straw bale" shooters who are quite happy to hit 25 or 30 out of 50 and then on to more important things like getting bladdered at their local.

 

What appeal does the CPSA have for these guys, absolutely none of course..??

 

Their money is far better spent on scratchcards, beer and fags, and as for Insurance, well, they don't need that, simply 'cos it costs them money, it's somebody elses problem.

 

Cat.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Catamong

[Canis]

What the CPSA needs to do is stay away from the boring stuff that keeps getting rolled out.

 

No one seriously gives a **** about prize money apart from a handful of the most gobby. Besides, the sport probably has the lowest value prizes known to any Olympic sport. I mean, you hit a 147 in ******* snooker and they are ******* and moaning because in the old days they got a Bentley for it. And as for Darts, well you don't get that much gold dripping off your neck and fingers on £50 high guns do you?

 

I'm sure that the worst prize money in Olyimpic sport is actually fencing .( there isn't any, Ever!.) The top fencers in this country get some sponsorship in equipment terms from the single uk based equipment manufacturer but not prize money) the lack of prizes doesn't seem to affect the popularity of competitions though.

 

As someone who is a modest shot ( been shooting several years, never entrered a registered shoot) i see little incentive to enter competitions where the top gun prize will be won by some AAAAAAAAA shooter who is doing a whistlestop tour of grounds to win as many prizes as possible and the other class prizes will be won by the Chaps who should be AAAAAAAA class but haven't bothered to enter competitions this year !

 

As a perceived "elitist" sport, Olyimpic Clay Shooting does not get any real television coverage (funnily enough neither does fencing for the same reason), therefore as a minority sport, in which people have no indication of if they will be any good until they try it, promotion of the sport in the "grass roots" is the most important thing the national organisation can do -the more people who discover shooting, the more chance of another Digweed. With minimal help the elite/squad competitors will take care of themselves.

 

Surely to get more membership the CPSA needs to diversify to meet the needs of the average shooters like myself.

[100milesaway]

If you had a son or daughter that was a leading light in swimming or athletics and wanted to further themselves and attempt to try for a place at the Olympics, i'm sure you would want to give them all the encouragement you could.We have the CPSA as the governing body to help our shooters in this country albeit with limited resourses, so i dont really get it why we have to knock the people who want to excel in shooting. Surely as shooters we should embrace their skills and try to learn from them.

I would love theCPSA to make a bigger splash of our medal holders and encourage our up and coming shooters to go further but the actual steps to furtherment need explaining better. from Auntie.

[David BASC]

Not trying to be awkward but I don’t think the CPSA look after the Olympic disciplines...we may ask why...but that is history.

 

We lack, in my view, enough Olympic standard facilities for new talent to be seen and developed, and we lack sufficient funding to support our Olympic shooters, and we lack funding to develop new Olympic talent to the level we could...but I am not convinced the CPSA will take this under their wing, and maybe they think it is best left alone - I don't know.

 

But more does need to be done ot encourage people into shooting – SGC’s are now around 750k, they were over 1Million 20 years ago – that’s something that needs addressing.

 

David

[100milesaway]

Not trying to be awkward but I don’t think the CPSA look after the Olympic disciplines...we may ask why...but that is history.

 

We lack, in my view, enough Olympic standard facilities for new talent to be seen and developed, and we lack sufficient funding to support our Olympic shooters, and we lack funding to develop new Olympic talent to the level we could...but I am not convinced the CPSA will take this under their wing, and maybe they think it is best left alone - I don't know.

 

But more does need to be done ot encourage people into shooting – SGC’s are now around 750k, they were over 1Million 20 years ago – that’s something that needs addressing.

 

David

Sorry David , I do understand that the Olympic branches of shooting are not funded by the CPSA, but I was just using that as an example of achievement. I don't understand why lots of people on this forum, don't respect their own sporting achievers.Anyone who wins something like the British or English Open deserves all the highest accolades possible, we should remember it has been done with lots of hard work and very little, if any financial gain.from Auntie.

[Mungler]

Hmmm....those grapes are tasting pretty sour down Basildon way today..??

 

It's all very well knocking the CPSA, who, by whatever yardstick you employ, have been badly run and managed for as long as I can remember, but don't knock the "elite CPSA shooters", as you call them, most of whom are actually pretty nice guys, (and gals) once you get to know them.

 

Clay Pigeon shooting is one of the very few sports we Brits do really well at, if our shooters were as abysmal as our footballers then I could understand your comments. Don't misinterpret the apparent aloofness of some "top" shooters, they're merely concentrating hard on shooting a good score, which means nothing to you but a lot to them.

 

The fact is, by jacking in the CPSA after only a few months membership, you're denying yourself the opportunity to shoot for your County of Essex, the South East Region and perhaps even England..?? You're destined to shoot forever alongside the camo clad, pump wielding, safety catch forgetting, uninsured mass of Sunday morning "straw bale" shooters who are quite happy to hit 25 or 30 out of 50 and then on to more important things like getting bladdered at their local.

 

What appeal does the CPSA have for these guys, absolutely none of course..??

 

Their money is far better spent on scratchcards, beer and fags, and as for Insurance, well, they don't need that, simply 'cos it costs them money, it's somebody elses problem.

 

Cat.

 

 

 

Cat you have shown your blinkered view.

 

Yes I get the fact that the top boys want to compete; does anything I have suggested actually adversely affect the top boys or stop them from competing?

 

The nub is that the CPSA needs to appeal to a broader church and attract more members not just those that are fanatical about competing on their own every Sunday at registered shoots. It's about the survival of the CPSA and the sport. Look at it from a business / business opportunity perspective - there are haybales up and down the land with car parks full to the brim.

 

Are you suggesting that unless you want to compete to the top of your level every week and climb the rankings tables then the CPSA is not for you, will never be for you and was not designed for you? If so, it's destined to ever reducing membership until it fails.

 

What is stopping the CPSA from appealing to people who just want to shoot clays with their mates every weekend - they are in the majority.

 

Cat, your post has reminded me where I started:

 

I don't know why I am bothering to type this because the CPSA is just not in a position to fix itself, however, here goes:

 

and the title of the thread:

 

What can a Clay Association do for you, What would you like to see?

Edited September 29, 2010 by Mungler

[HDAV]

I didnt start this thread to have a a go at the CPSA, just to find out what people wanted from an association that represents them, seems not much really.

 

 

I would like to know why the CPSA doesn't work with all disciplines of competitive clay shooting.

 

I guess the thing i am wondering is why cant there be an equivalent of the RYA for shooting the RYA does a very good job of promotion and appealing to both competitive and none competitive sailors it also covers other water users such as power boats windsurfing etc not just dinghy sailing.

 

I just think that whether you shoot a straw bale twice a year, or a registered twice a week you should be represented, I don't understand all this AAA stuff and as far as i can tell have never shot a registered shoot, that doesn't mean i don't want to, but that no one has ever even mentioned it to me, yes i see people with all sorts of badges on jackets but none of them ever speak to me, I have never seen anything from the WCTSA and cant figure out its website which seems stupid as i do 90% of my shooting in Wales....

[Catamong]

Cat you have shown your blinkered view.

 

Hmm, I don't think so, I've shot more "straw balers" than you could shake a Mossberg 500 at, don't forget that's where we all started, but some of us have got cheesed off over the years by being ripped off by lazy ground owners who charge the earth, pay scant regard to safety of both trappers and shooters and call it just a "fun shoot" when asked why they pay nothing back in prize money.

 

Yeah, great fun for them, 'cos they're laughing all the way to the bank.

 

It's odd that nobody on this thread can really put their finger on exactly what they want the CPSA to do for the "grass roots" shooter..??

 

It's so easy to knock the CPSA but offer no constructive comment.

 

Far better to go along to a local CPSA committee meeting and put your point across, as some more enlightened and motivated members of this forum already do, I can assure you that your comments will be fed up the line to the CPSA Board, that's by far the best way to effect change, so much better than throwing the dummy out of the pram after only a few months membership and then morphing into a self proclaimed expert on what's wrong with clay shooting today.

 

Cat.

[Mungler]

All this nonsense about unsafe hay bale shoots with low prize money is utter rubbish as if to suggest they represent the dirty and inferior end of the clay shooting scene. Do you have any evidence of injuries sustained at haybales pro rata to attendances and by comparison to CPSA grounds? And what's the disparity in the grand scheme of things between the 350 carts for high gun at JJs (worth £50) and what, a £100 High Gun CPSA competition? Firstly, you don't need to subscribe to shoot at JJs and a round is a fraction of the cost of any registered shoot.

 

Again, you appear to be distracted with "prize money" which wouldn't cover the cost of the petrol and entry fee, let alone cartridges. I reckon the average man on the street has spent less on scratch cards and yet won more money than the average AAA class shooter.

 

I can see with my own eyes the stats put up by Orac and from the responses on here that the straw baler remains in the majority and yet feature as an absolute minority in the eyes of the CPSA. So just why does the "Clay Pigeon Shooting Association" not represent or appeal to the majority of clay pigeon shooters?

 

To be honest, I think I am beyond caring on this one. In the traditional "supplier and customer" scenario, it's the CPSA that should be appealing to me for my subscriptions and attendance at CPSA shoots.

 

I'll wager you now that my local haybale will be going strong long after the CPSA is gone

 

I am also surprised that you can't see that all grounds (be they haybale or top of the shop premier registered grounds) ought to be able to co-exist within the CPSA and likewise AAA class competition shooters and social shooters; they don't have to shoot the same competitions on the same days at the same grounds - they just ought to be able to co-exist in the same Clay Pigeon Shooting Association. I don't see how that can be that a contentious proposition.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Mungler

[Catamong]

I am also surprised that you can't see that all grounds (be they haybale or top of the shop premier registered grounds) ought to be able to co-exist within the CPSA and likewise AAA class competition shooters and social shooters; they don't have to shoot the same competitions on the same days at the same grounds - they just ought to be able to co-exist in the same Clay Pigeon Shooting Association. I don't see how that can be that a contentious proposition.

 

Well, you've hit the nail on the head there, wouldn't it be great if they had to join the CPSA before they threw their first 10 yard flopper, but the fact is, the "Haybaler grounds" won't join the CPSA because:

 

a) - There's nothing in it for them

- It costs them money that can be better spent on loose Women and fast cars

c) - They would have to adhere to the CPSA codes of practice regarding safe layouts / shooting / scoring / insurance etc, all of which are unnecessary distractions from ripping off the mug punter.

 

I suggest we continue this debate when I next give you another good whooping at High Lodge over the festive period...............but, hold on.............isn't that a CPSA "Premier Ground"..??

 

Cat.

[Whitebridges]

Well, you've hit the nail on the head there, wouldn't it be great if they had to join the CPSA before they threw their first 10 yard flopper, but the fact is, the "Haybaler grounds" won't join the CPSA because:

 

a) - There's nothing in it for them

- It costs them money that can be better spent on loose Women and fast cars

c) - They would have to adhere to the CPSA codes of practice regarding safe layouts / shooting / scoring / insurance etc, all of which are unnecessary distractions from ripping off the mug punter.

 

I suggest we continue this debate when I next give you another good whooping at High Lodge over the festive period...............but, hold on.............isn't that a CPSA "Premier Ground"..??

 

Cat.

 

 

Vintage stuff Cat, I'm a better shot than you so I know best.... over to you Mung me darlin'.....