What can a Clay Association do for you

[Mungler]

I can tell you one thing, there will still be 25,000 CPSA members out there, if you're a serious clay shooter, you need to be a member, and if you don't like the way things are being run, you set about to change it from within.

 

Cat, your "if you want to be a serious clay shooter your need to join the CPSA" rhetoric always makes me giggle. What you actually should say is "the CPSA keep track of the scores and if you want your scores 'kept' then you need to join the CPSA". Wow! It sounds a little less important and glamorous though doesn't it? They keep the scores eh? Tricky stuff. I can see how that would take up all their time; well that and all the in fighting and employment tribunals.

 

The other classic is "if you don't like the way things are being run, you set about to change it from within". Yeah righto. I went to Tescos the other day and they had sold out of wholemeal flour. Funnily enough the bloke behind the counter didn't suggest that I join the Tesco trainee manager program, get a job at the store, look for a promotion as a buyer at head office and thereby effect change from within and ensure that my local store never ran out of whole meal flour and was always stocked with what I want. No, he knew I wasn't going to be making a purchase that day and I would probably go to Sainsbury’s for what I needed.

 

So, why can't the CPSA just hire the right people, listen to what the whole clay shooting market place is saying and wants, and then make that change like a proper business or organisation with members and customers?

[MC]

Cat, your "if you want to be a serious clay shooter your need to join the CPSA" rhetoric always makes me giggle. What you actually should say is "the CPSA keep track of the scores and if you want your scores 'kept' then you need to join the CPSA". Wow! It sounds a little less important and glamorous though doesn't it? They keep the scores eh? Tricky stuff. I can see how that would take up all their time; well that and all the in fighting and employment tribunals.

 

The other classic is "if you don't like the way things are being run, you set about to change it from within". Yeah righto. I went to Tescos the other day and they had sold out of wholemeal flour. Funnily enough the bloke behind the counter didn't suggest that I join the Tesco trainee manager program, get a job at the store, look for a promotion as a buyer at head office and thereby effect change from within and ensure that my local store never ran out of whole meal flour and was always stocked with what I want. No, he knew I wasn't going to be making a purchase that day and I would probably go to Sainsbury’s for what I needed.

 

So, why can't the CPSA just hire the right people, listen to what the whole clay shooting market place is saying and wants, and then make that change like a proper business or organisation with members and customers?

 

 

Because that would mean they would have to climb down off the ivory towers, and remove there heads from their ***** and ACTUALLY do the job they are paid for. At the moment they can just take their salaries each month, ignore the complaints and flak from the members (Something they are very good at) and do nothing.

 

I notice Cat has not managed to answer why the CPSA do not enforce their own safety rules at their registered shoots, and why is it that some grounds can basically do what they like and others get slung out for daring to do something slightly different.

 

When the guy (Who has a south african accent) phoned me earlier in the year to ask why I had not renewed my membership again I told him that is was because of the lack of support and shoots in Essex. His answer was "OK".

 

When I then challenged him as to why there weren't any registered shoots in Essex his answer was there aren't any grounds capable of holding any. I told him about 3 acres, Copfurn, The Fennes, and various other clubs in a 20 mile radius from my house and he said he didn't even know half of them existed. How can a member of staff at the so called head organisation for clay pigeon shooting not know about these grounds? Are they really as stupid as they make out? Or is it that they really are not interested in anything outside of skeet and trap at Bisley.

 

The CPSA in my opinion is finished for everyone except the few who want to be able to wave their willies at everyone else because they are a AA class shooter.

 

THe constant knocking of the haybales is funny and I notice that noone has taken me up on shooting a straight at JJ's as it is so easy.

[David BASC]

I think, hope, the CPSA will make changes as the new CEO comes on board.

 

There are things they could / should do to increase retention and recruitment; there are things they could do to get their message across.

 

Certainly if you read the minutes of the board meetings as posted on their web site, it looks ot me that there are plans ahead, but understandably they will wait until the new person is in post.

 

I am sure the CPSA still has a very important roll to play in shooting, but they could start by promoting up front what the strategic objective(s) of the CPSA are and what the latest news / key issues the CPSA are involved in up front on their web site. Let the members and prospective members see exactly what the officers of the CPSA are doing and delivering

 

I am not convinced that the bulk of their home page should be taken up by an advert for a new CEO, two adverts for Perkins Slade and another advert for the company that designs the web site! What message is that putting across?

 

Better to surely have the home page which:

 

Clearly states what you are about and what you do

Clearly shows what you are involved in at the moment and delivering for the sport

Makes it easy for the visitor to look for more information

 

But then again it’s easy to criticize!

 

David

[MC]

I think, hope, the CPSA will make changes as the new CEO comes on board.

 

There are things they could / should do to increase retention and recruitment; there are things they could do to get their message across.

 

Certainly if you read the minutes of the board meetings as posted on their web site, it looks ot me that there are plans ahead, but understandably they will wait until the new person is in post.

 

I am sure the CPSA still has a very important roll to play in shooting, but they could start by promoting up front what the strategic objective(s) of the CPSA are and what the latest news / key issues the CPSA are involved in up front on their web site. Let the members and prospective members see exactly what the officers of the CPSA are doing and delivering

 

I am not convinced that the bulk of their home page should be taken up by an advert for a new CEO, two adverts for Perkins Slade and another advert for the company that designs the web site! What message is that putting across?

Better to surely have the home page which:

 

Clearly states what you are about and what you do

Clearly shows what you are involved in at the moment and delivering for the sport

Makes it easy for the visitor to look for more information

 

But then again it’s easy to criticize!

 

David

 

 

It shows that they have clearly lost their way and are like headless chickens.

 

Still I suppose it beats an advert for a second hand car.

[HDAV]

I must say the board meeting minutes from July don't paint a brilliant picture, but does include some interesting sound bites that could be easily mis quoted:

http://www.cpsa.co.uk/userfiles/file/CPSAB...tes27July10.pdf

 

KJN commented he had received a complaint from a potential trade member who was very dissatisfied with the service received when they attempted to join, and SB undertook to follow the matter up. With 700 clubs showing as currently lapsed on the system, CDB was keen that they should be concentrated on, and the contact base updated.

 

but they at least seem aware of some of the issues...

 

The point of the thread was not to have a go at the CPSA, BASC, NRA or any other association but to find out what people wanted from an association, perhaps the problem is that most dont see the need to be a member and apart from those wanting to shoot competitively there is no reason to be a member?

[webber]

I must say the board meeting minutes from July don't paint a brilliant picture, but does include some interesting sound bites that could be easily mis quoted:

http://www.cpsa.co.uk/userfiles/file/CPSAB...tes27July10.pdf

 

 

but they at least seem aware of some of the issues...

 

The point of the thread was not to have a go at the CPSA, BASC, NRA or any other association but to find out what people wanted from an association, perhaps the problem is that most dont see the need to be a member and apart from those wanting to shoot competitively there is no reason to be a member?

 

 

BINGO

 

webber

[Canis]

Its probably a the wrong thread for mentioning this but one way the CPSA has really failed us all was by failing do more to ensure that we were left with a shooting legacy from the London Olyimpics - 26 million of funding for facilities squandered!

 

Could they do anything if their new man acted NOW?

[PhilR]

The CPSA didn't fail anyone.

 

British Shooting was the organisation, with LOCOG, dealing with the Olympic Shooting venue. The only connection between the CPSA and British Shooting is that the previous CEO, was also Chairman of BICTSF. He was one of the two delegates from BICTSF to British Shooting, their Board voted him in as Chairman. You can blame the individual but you shouldn't blame the CPSA.

Edited October 4, 2010 by philr

[David BASC]

I agree 100%, I had a meeting with British Shooting as all this was going on, it was, in my view, a bit of a mess, not least of all when BS lost quite a bit of funding and thus resources...not a happy situation but nothing at all to do with the CPSA.

 

David

[speckles]

I agree 100%, I had a meeting with British Shooting as all this was going on, it was, in my view, a bit of a mess, not least of all when BS lost quite a bit of funding and thus resources...not a happy situation but nothing at all to do with the CPSA.

 

David

 

That's interesting. To me (as an admitted ignoramous) nothing better sums up the poor state of representation for clay shooters than the 2012 Olympics debacle. If it wasn't down to the CPSA, who was responsible and why? I'd love to know the facts about all that. BASC seem to feel it was nothing to do with them, the CPSA were allegedly not responsible and I now gather it was a body called British Shooting - who they? - who were the people in charge.

 

How ever it came about, I feel it makes the case perfectly for one body to represent the interests of all UK shooters. Too many organisations have a finger in the shooting pie at the moment.

[Catamong]

As I said before, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

 

The Essex Gaylords were CPSA members for all of 5 minutes, now they're self proclaimed experts on the history of the organisation, the reality is they don't know Jack Sheet.

 

Cat.

[Mungler]

As I said before, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

 

The Essex Gaylords were CPSA members for all of 5 minutes, now they're self proclaimed experts on the history of the organisation, the reality is they don't know Jack Sheet.

 

Cat.

 

 

Well, now we have moved from "you don't score high enough and so your opinion doesn't count" to "you haven't been shooting long enough for your opinion to count".

 

Love it

[paulos]

The other classic is "if you don't like the way things are being run, you set about to change it from within". Yeah righto. I went to Tescos the other day and they had sold out of wholemeal flour. Funnily enough the bloke behind the counter didn't suggest that I join the Tesco trainee manager program, get a job at the store, look for a promotion as a buyer at head office and thereby effect change from within and ensure that my local store never ran out of whole meal flour and was always stocked with what I want. No, he knew I wasn't going to be making a purchase that day and I would probably go to Sainsbury’s for what I needed.

A more apt example would be complaining to a Tesco employee, even though you haven't stepped foot in the shop for years. You have no real experience of what they sell or what their staff do, but hey, the other blokes down at the corner shop don't like them so best jump on the underdog bandwagon. The said Tesco employee would be more tempted to tell you to get ****** rather than 'improve from within' however.

 

I do agree that the CPSA needs to find a way of bolstering membership and providing for 'haybalers' but I agree with Cat that if you are just interested in rattling out a few cartridges and having a laugh before Sunday lunch then it's probably not for you as all of the things that Full CPSA Members benefit from are available to you anyway - except for the registration of scores and the ability to shoot for your County, Region or Country.

 

My only suggestions would be to try and raise the profile of the sport generally, ie. an active role in running "Have a go days" and fundraisers - using registered and affiliated grounds as well as Premier ones. This would draw much needed attention to smaller clubs and perhaps help them justify their subscription fees.

 

Another would be to abolish the "Affiliated" status and to introduce a cheaper, more relaxed "Registered" status to encourage higher take-up and allow more grounds to hold registered shoots - shooters will soon vote with their feet if a ground isn't cutting the mustard anyway!

 

I would also abolish the absurd rule which prevents non-members from shooting registered shoots. I couldn't care less how many people are at the ground - the more the better. It won't affect the payout either as they would only be birds only under a day pass. All the day pass does is deter non-members from attending shoots. I would be fascinated to see how much the scheme raises each year.

 

The only way that clay shooting is going to have an organisation like other popular sports is if the "Gun Taboo" can be broken and shooting can be made enjoyable to watch/televise, and this raise broadcasting/sponsorship revenue. I feel strongly however that while BASC and the CPSA may have some common interest in shooting, the sport of clay shooting can only suffer if it formally placed under the same umbrella as live quarry shooting .

 

I think it is also highly unfair to criticise HQ staff on a public forum when they may have no idea they are being discussed. Directors place themselves in the political sphere and are therefore "fair game" (despite doing it on a voluntary basis), but HQ staff, in my experience (not extensive, but considerably more than most on this thread), they do a fantastic job.

[Mungler]

A more apt example would be complaining to a Tesco employee, even though you haven't stepped foot in the shop for years. You have no real experience of what they sell or what their staff do, but hey, the other blokes down at the corner shop don't like them so best jump on the underdog bandwagon. The said Tesco employee would be more tempted to tell you to get ****** rather than 'improve from within' however.

 

You do know that doesn't make much sense I haven't been to a Morrisons in 5 years but I know it's a supermarket and ought to be selling whole meal flour.

 

Tescos are in the business of selling to customers - that's what any business or commercial organisation does. The CPSA isn't a registered charity and has paid staff either at board level or on the ground. It has something to sell and it has customers. It is therefore a business under the guise of an association. It will live or die by the pound note.

 

It seems to me that the first and most basic thing the CPSA needs to do is clarify what it does, what it's customer base is / ought to be, what those customers want and then to implement a plan.

 

If it wants to conduct restrictive activities to a very specific sector of the clay shooting community then so be it. It doesn't make that much sense to me however - ask yourself the question of "if the CPSA was my business what would I do differently?"

 

As above, there are paid staff and board members who if they had the right qualifications, experience and support would be doing all of this already.

Edited October 4, 2010 by Mungler

[HDAV]

My only suggestions would be to try and raise the profile of the sport generally, ie. an active role in running "Have a go days" and fundraisers - using registered and affiliated grounds as well as Premier ones. This would draw much needed attention to smaller clubs and perhaps help them justify their subscription fees.

 

Another would be to abolish the "Affiliated" status and to introduce a cheaper, more relaxed "Registered" status to encourage higher take-up and allow more grounds to hold registered shoots - shooters will soon vote with their feet if a ground isn't cutting the mustard anyway!

I would also abolish the absurd rule which prevents non-members from shooting registered shoots. I couldn't care less how many people are at the ground - the more the better. It won't affect the payout either as they would only be birds only under a day pass. All the day pass does is deter non-members from attending shoots. I would be fascinated to see how much the scheme raises each year.

The only way that clay shooting is going to have an organisation like other popular sports is if the "Gun Taboo" can be broken and shooting can be made enjoyable to watch/televise, and this raise broadcasting/sponsorship revenue. I feel strongly however that while BASC and the CPSA may have some common interest in shooting, the sport of clay shooting can only suffer if it formally placed under the same umbrella as live quarry shooting .

 

I think it is also highly unfair to criticise HQ staff on a public forum when they may have no idea they are being discussed. Directors place themselves in the political sphere and are therefore "fair game" (despite doing it on a voluntary basis), but HQ staff, in my experience (not extensive, but considerably more than most on this thread), they do a fantastic job.

 

Without the support of regular shooters how is the rest going be achieved? Why would the CPSA bother? Why would the BASC? but the BASC seem to have more interest on this forum at least, It does seem crazy that the CPSA administer half of clay shooting and http://www.britishshooting.org.uk/ the olympic disciplines through http://www.bictsf.com/ ? and some disciplines have their own set up how fractured can one sport be?

 

I mainly shoot "english sporting" as thats what i learnt on enjoy and do locally but i would like to try others but it seems so hard to find the info and places to do it, I would like to try Helice is it looks like amazing fun, and surely there should be an easyily accessible database of places you can shoot it? Or at least someone who knows where it can be shot.

 

As the CPSA only administer half of the sport and none of the olympic disciplines its kind of amazing how well we do internationally with no coordinated promotion and education syllabus or decent resources. I fear it is too late to present a united front to the anti's as with no serious association or organisation representing all clay shooters we may soon be headed the way of pistol shooter....

 

AS an example the number of shoots I have contacted or tried to and not got anywhere or had a totally negative response from is amazing I am fortunate to live close to a well run and well staffed ground with excellent facilities for beginners so it has been easy to introduce people to the sport but others its like pulling teeth try to spend your money with them... your never going to get every ground/shoot/group to agree to a code of conduct etc. But surely you can get most to agree perhaps its this fractured nature which has led the 2012 debacle hopefully the same wont happen in 2014

Edited October 4, 2010 by HDAV

[100milesaway]

Without the support of regular shooters how is the rest going be achieved? Why would the CPSA bother? Why would the BASC? but the BASC seem to have more interest on this forum at least, It does seem crazy that the CPSA administer half of clay shooting and http://www.britishshooting.org.uk/ the olympic disciplines through http://www.bictsf.com/ ? and some disciplines have their own set up how fractured can one sport be?

 

I mainly shoot "english sporting" as thats what i learnt on enjoy and do locally but i would like to try others but it seems so hard to find the info and places to do it, I would like to try Helice is it looks like amazing fun, and surely there should be an easyily accessible database of places you can shoot it? Or at least someone who knows where it can be shot.

 

As the CPSA only administer half of the sport and none of the olympic disciplines its kind of amazing how well we do internationally with no coordinated promotion and education syllabus or decent resources. I fear it is too late to present a united front to the anti's as with no serious association or organisation representing all clay shooters we may soon be headed the way of pistol shooter....

 

AS an example the number of shoots I have contacted or tried to and not got anywhere or had a totally negative response from is amazing I am fortunate to live close to a well run and well staffed ground with excellent facilities for beginners so it has been easy to introduce people to the sport but others its like pulling teeth try to spend your money with them... your never going to get every ground/shoot/group to agree to a code of conduct etc. But surely you can get most to agree perhaps its this fractured nature which has led the 2012 debacle hopefully the same wont happen in 2014

If you want to try lots of different types of shooting you only need to go onto the CPSA website and you will find a section that tells you whats on and which area it's around. Also Pull Magazine and Clay shooting magazine also offer the same at the back of the mags. from Auntie

[HDAV]

If you want to try lots of different types of shooting you only need to go onto the CPSA website and you will find a section that tells you whats on and which area it's around. Also Pull Magazine and Clay shooting magazine also offer the same at the back of the mags. from Auntie

IF only it was that simple....http://www.cpsa.co.uk/fixtures?club=0&discipline=15&period=week&eventType=&submit=Search or perhaps there just aren't any events......

[David BASC]

The CPSA web can only put up the events / shoots that they tare told about, the same goes for the BASC GoShooting site for example.

 

However, I think the way forward, with shooting opportunities, is for BASC and CPSA to be more proactive in getting out there and actively finding shoots and encouraging them to promote themselves, when they want to, via the BASC site or the CPSA site.

 

That is certainly what BASC will be doing but we will NOT be targeting any registered shoot as that is very much in the remit of the CPSA. But there will be a link off the BASC clay section of the web (as there is now) and off the BASC GoShooting site (to be re-launched next year) to the CPSA

 

David

[Catamong]

However, I think the way forward, with shooting opportunities, is for BASC and CPSA to be more proactive in getting out there and actively finding shoots and encouraging them to promote themselves, when they want to, via the BASC site or the CPSA site.

 

 

David

 

Yes, couldn't agree more, the CPSA have appointed a "Membership Development Co-Ordinator" whose remit is to attract more members, here he is:

 

http://www.cpsa.co.uk/bobby-watkins

 

Now, I presume this guy is on some sort of "Tescos" style incentive scheme, he has to report to every Board meeting, if he's not delivering in his job then I would hope that they will appoint somebody who can?

 

Cat.

[David BASC]

I will touch base with him and see how we can work together for the benefit of shooting

 

David

[100milesaway]

IF only it was that simple....http://www.cpsa.co.uk/fixtures?club=0&discipline=15&period=week&eventType=&submit=Search or perhaps there just aren't any events......

!st home page of CPSA site and press fixtures. How many do you want?It just might be that there are no Helise grounds in south Wales but thats not the CPSA's fault.from Auntie.

[HDAV]

It just might be that there are no Helise grounds in south Wales but thats not the CPSA's fault.from Auntie.

There don't seem to be, none for sporting either...(south wales) Perhaps its more to do with the WCTSA, or the ground managers not needing to or being bothered to update them, whatever the reason not much is shown.

 

This isnt supposed to be bashing the CPSA, more trying to find out what people want from an association, seems there are some long running and strongly held opinions.

[100milesaway]

There don't seem to be, none for sporting either...(south wales) Perhaps its more to do with the WCTSA, or the ground managers not needing to or being bothered to update them, whatever the reason not much is shown.

 

This isnt supposed to be bashing the CPSA, more trying to find out what people want from an association, seems there are some long running and strongly held opinions.

Yes, you are absolutly right, horses for courses, we are thin on the ground up here for sporting shoots as well. I think the options for furtherment could be looked at, 'cause unless you are in the know or have someone to guide you through all the confusion it must be very daunting to progress to the next level. from Auntie.

[poontang]

I will touch base with him

 

David

 

Just make sure you've got a 'suitable window of opportunity' for some 'blue sky thinking' David. You need to 'think outside the box' on this one, really 'push the envelope'. I'm sure whilst you're brainstorming he'll be 'blamestorming' so don't forget to bring your 'A-game' to the table and 'get all your ducks in a row'

 

Seriously though, I'm no longer a member of the CPSA so it doesn't really bother me what they do, but taking on a South African rifle shooter and ex baker wouldn't fill me with much confidence that he can sway British shotgun shooters to join up. Surely they could have found someone better suited to the job? An ex Enlgand shooter for example, B) someone who knows the sport and how it works in this country, and the problems it has faced in the past.

 

Just a thought

[David BASC]

I'll run that up the flagpole and see who salutes, but remain open minded to the helicopter view

 

I guess he was the best guy for the job at the time, in all honesty I look forward to meeting him.

 

David