FAC requirements/regulations for a DSC1

[Frenchieboy]

I am definitelygoing to be putting in for a .243 to be used for both Fox AND DEER and I have my eye on a cracking little rifle wqhich I am going to put a deposit on when the shop opens on Monday Morning. My FEO has briefly spoken to me about it when I went on some land checks with him but we only lightly brushed on the subject. The main jist of the conversation was that he would not have a problem allowing me a .243 as there wee deer on my permissions that I had permission to shoot, and that he would open the permissions up for up to .270 caliber but he would like to see some sort of Deer Management Program in place for these permissions! I told him about some of my longer term plans (There is a strong possibility that i will be going out regularly with a professional Stalker/Deer Management expert) and he thinks that I might be better thinking about something like a 6.5X55 as he knows this chap well, but that is looking into the future. I have chatted with my wife and we have decided that I should settle for a good .243 for the time being while I gain experience and knowledge. My FEO added that he would ideally like to see me with an OPEN ticket but agreed that if I supplied his office with a Shooting Log and a few letters from the farmers and landowners who I shoot for saying that I am perfectly safe and responsible (Which I now have done and ready to send off) he would not have any issues in making my FAC fully open (At the moment it is only open for Rimfires and closed for Centerfires)

OK, with that in mind my question to all of you that are experienced in Deer Management and Stalking is as follows:

Firstly, as I am not all that well off at the moment and have to sell my Bruno .222 to help fund the .243 that I want is it a necessity or legal requirement that I should have (Or be booked up for) a DSC1 in order to get DEER on my FAC with a .243 or can I do my DSC1 (Or similar - What would you guys recommend) at a later date? (I am asking this in case he says that I can not have a .243 for deer without putting in for the DSC1 course first)

Secondly. I fully agree that it would be extremely beneficial to have a DSC1 if you are planning to shoot or stalk deer so with that in mind along with is there any way that I could start studying for it without having to pay a "Kings Ramsome" for the course or having to pay full price for any DVDs or Books that will help me out towards getting my DSC1 in the future, and if so what price might i expect to pay for them!

Any thoughts or suggestions will be more than welcome.

Thanks Guys!

[Dekers]

The DSC is NOT legally required at all!

 

Unfortunately we are living in an age where waving a certificate at someone opens doors and I suspect the time will come when the likes of a DSC will be mandatory.

 

It always surprises me the lack of knowledge some appear to have with deer (the most regulated species we have in this country) and perhaps it should be, flippen 'ek ..what am I saying?

 

I would like to think I have a certain level of deer experience, certainly Wiltshire, Thames Valley and the Met Police are perfectly happy for me to act as a Deer Mentor, I have no DSC, just lifes experience.

 

Frankly I see the DSC a bit like the driving test, it is a way to get you out alone legally, you learn to drive (stalk) afterwords!

 

ATB!!

[eddoakley]

Frenchie, I guess I have been very lucky with my fac and the way me feo has dealt with all of my applications/variations.

I had .22 rimfire for about 2 months before I applied for a second one and that was granted. (one for the range and one for field!!)

2 or 3 months later I applied for .243 for fox and deer. I had 1 paid accompanied stalk booked and that was enough for my feo to grant the .243.

Within 6 months I was also granted .17hmr and .308 for vermin and fox and deer respectivley.

Although I have a 'closed ticket' I have never had any sort of mentor condition applied to my fac and have never been told that I need DSC or any other qualification. I have no deer on any of my own permissions.

As I said I have been lucky, but there is definately no legal requirement for DSC or similar before you get a ''deer rifle''.

With that said I must say that it is certainly a good idea to do the DSC. I have done quite a lot of stalking in a short period and thought that I knew quite a bit but you never stop learning and having started to study for the dsc I can see there is so much more to learn (although so much of it is common sense and I'm sure I would have passed without any sort of study)

Hope my prattling on has been some help.

Edd

[Frenchieboy]

I have to agree with you about using the driving test as a similarity - The certificate you get when you pass does not say that you are a good driver, all it says is that you can drive to the minimum standard required!

The way that I se it is that many (Not all I agree) of these "Certificated Courses" are often nothing more than a money spinner with as many people as possible jumping on the bandwagon trying to profiteer out of them!

I do however see the DSC1 as being slightly different, please allow me to explain!

When you are talking about shooting live quarry and "taking the life of a living creature" then this has to be approached responsibly. I believe that I have a very responsible attitude in that respect but I also acknowledge that I still have a lot to learn - This is why even though there now "appears" to be no legal requirement for me to have my DSC1 before I went out and shot some deer I realise that it would be highly advisable for me to gain as much knowledge on the subject first. This is why I would like to know if there is anything that I can do or use to help me gain a fuller understanding while I wait till I can afford the DSC1 Course.

Any thoughts or suggestions without them costing me the earth please?

[eddoakley]

Frenchie, try evilbay for DSC revision cd. I have one and I found it to be very interesting and informative (although I have to say not challenging!!)

I think they are about £22.

I will pm you with some other info.

Edd

[Frenchieboy]

Frenchie, try evilbay for DSC revision cd. I have one and I found it to be very interesting and informative (although I have to say not challenging!!)

I think they are about £22.

I will pm you with some other info.

Edd

 

Thanks Edd, that's exactly the sort of help that I was hoping for. I knew that I could rely on a member or two from PW to offer some reasonable and practical help.

[njc110381]

The DSC is only one doorway into the world of Deer stalking. Reading between the lines I think a lot of firearms departments will insist on them if you have no other means of training. What you have should be equally as good though and I don't think (note the think!) that your FEO would need to see that kind of paperwork from you. You've already said that the chap you plan to shoot with is well known to them which in my mind means they would respect him as a suitable "teacher" for you. What he can offer you is better than the DSC as along with the knowledge you will be given, you will also pick up a lot from practical experience. Like the driving test mentioned earlier that piece of paper means nothing and you learn a great deal more after passing.

 

Generally they only want to know that 1. You'll be safe with a large calibre rifle (rightly so) and 2. That you can deal with an animal the size of a Deer humanely and with competence. The latter is none of their business really but some seem to think it is! Going out with the friend that you mentioned will cover both of these requirements and then go on to offer a little more than the DSC1 ever could - right through level 2 territory aswell.

 

There are some very good non DSC books that are worth a read too. You need something that covers species and sex identification, seasons for each, correct method to gralloch, disease/illness recognition and basic butchering should do the trick. I like Deer Stalking by Robert Bucknell. It's a good read but will need topping up in some areas with additional info. I think you'll do well to find a book that covers it to a reasonable level all in one.

[Dougy]

Aye up Mr Frenchieboy,

 

I would imagine the cost of DSC1 would be in the region of £200 give or take a few £ (traveling expences, time ect.) with that amount its a fair way towards a rifle, from your previous posts i get the feeling you love your 222, and would imagine you would miss it once you sell it, even though to fund another.

If you can i am sure you want to avoid taking the DSC i dont blame you one bit, You seem a decent chap who takes time and puts in the effort to understand your quarry before you take your rifle out, this is basicly what the DSC courses are about. I hope you get what you want and still manage to keep your 222.

 

All the best Frenchie

[markbivvy]

you have pm.

[Redgum]

Hi Frenchieboy, sorry to bring your roe post up but this is a good example of why the DSC1 is important. Its not just the stalking and shot placement, deer ident in winter and summer pelage but going over the law regarding firearms and deer.

Though its not a legal requirement to do any qualification before you get a deer calibre or deer on your license but I'm afraid, regardless of all the ranting on here about a persons rights, its at the discretion of your constabulary.

My force, Gloucestershire, told me they would not entertain the idea of a 243 until I done the DSC1, rightly so as my deer knowledge, though I thought otherwise, was not extensive and I learnt a hell of alot. There are stalkers who have years of experience that of course need no further education, saying that though there were a few 'experienced deer boys' doing there final tests with me and talk about opinionated and arguementative about what was right and wrong. Some even argued that the instructors mis led them with trick questions and as for the shooting. I'm no marksman but I had only fired 8 shots with a 243 previously ( though head shot hundreds of rabbits with hmr and .22lr), its not a hard test but honestly some of these chaps needed to get some practice.

If your FEO will allow deer and a deer calibre then you will save yourself a bit of dosh by not doing DSC1. I did my DSC1 on my own back and just paid for the test, still its the best part of £200 with ammo,books, fuel etc.

Get the British Deer Societies Traing manual for Deer Stalkers (£30), it covers just about every thing in the course, answer the questions in the back and see how much you have learned. If you don't need to do the course then this will still put you in a better place knowledge wise.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Redgum

[al4x]

Frenchie just put in for the variation and leave your .222 on there at the moment. Then you have the discussion with your FEO sounds like he will be reasonable and if you have someone to take you out odds are you'll get a mentoring condition then eventually they will just remove it. Its what I've just done and I've gained a when accompanied next to my deer condition with nothing else. Personally I'll be looking to do a few paid stalks and use the rifle on foxes so won't be unaccompanied at the moment as I will be looking to learn first. I may do the DSC later on but realistically I'd want on the ground experience more

[Frenchieboy]

Redgum mate I am not questioning the need or advantage of doing the DSC1, I totally agree that the more knowledge that you have about your quarry and the stalking and shooting of it the better, no matter how much we think we know we are all constantly learning. All I was questioning was if it was a legal condition/requirement for a .243 with deer on my conditions. If I get the .243 and Deer on my certificate I will most certainly do the DSC1 at a future date (Maybe during next summer) but at the moment it is a case of having to learn as much as I can while I save hard before I could afford to do it after paying for the rifle etc..

While there is no substitute for experience there is a real need for education!

Edited October 31, 2010 by Frenchieboy

[njc110381]

My force, Gloucestershire, told me they would not entertain the idea of a 243 until I done the DSC1, rightly so as my deer knowledge, though I thought otherwise, was not extensive and I learnt a hell of alot.

 

 

Yet I'm under the same force, have three Deer calibres conditioned for any lawful quarry and I don't have a DSC?! I would like to do it one day but never seem to have the finances!

 

I think Gloucestershire do well to look at each case on its own merits rather than blanket the whole process. I started off with a 6.5x55 as my first rifle and told the police I would like to stalk with a named mentor from the start. They were perfectly happy with that request and the DSC was never mentioned.

 

Can I assume you didn't have the good fortune of someone experienced to guide you at the beginning? If that is the case then the DSC seems the logical answer. A lot of responsibility lies in Deer stalking with large rifles and having some sort of basic training in one way or another isn't a bad thing at all. I feel quite strongly though that the DSC shouldn't be the only option as it restricts people on lower budgets and I feel that's unfair.

[Dekers]

Yet I'm under the same force, have three Deer calibres conditioned for any lawful quarry and I don't have a DSC?! I would like to do it one day but never seem to have the finances!

 

I think Gloucestershire do well to look at each case on its own merits rather than blanket the whole process. I started off with a 6.5x55 as my first rifle and told the police I would like to stalk with a named mentor from the start. They were perfectly happy with that request and the DSC was never mentioned.

 

Can I assume you didn't have the good fortune of someone experienced to guide you at the beginning? If that is the case then the DSC seems the logical answer. A lot of responsibility lies in Deer stalking with large rifles and having some sort of basic training in one way or another isn't a bad thing at all. I feel quite strongly though that the DSC shouldn't be the only option as it restricts people on lower budgets and I feel that's unfair.

 

 

Ok, wondering a bit perhaps......

 

Totally agree, but would go even further, who is the say the DSC teaches the right things in the right detail, etc, and imagine how the price would go through the roof if was the ONLY way to a deer ticket, then consider all the ***** who passed it and thought they knew it all!

 

Don't get me wrong, in principle the availability of some training for deer cannot be a bad thing, and frankly many could do with it, but as a one and only compulsory route this will not be good for the shooter.

 

[Redgum]

Yet I'm under the same force, have three Deer calibres conditioned for any lawful quarry and I don't have a DSC?! I would like to do it one day but never seem to have the finances!

 

I think Gloucestershire do well to look at each case on its own merits rather than blanket the whole process. I started off with a 6.5x55 as my first rifle and told the police I would like to stalk with a named mentor from the start. They were perfectly happy with that request and the DSC was never mentioned.

 

Can I assume you didn't have the good fortune of someone experienced to guide you at the beginning? If that is the case then the DSC seems the logical answer. A lot of responsibility lies in Deer stalking with large rifles and having some sort of basic training in one way or another isn't a bad thing at all. I feel quite strongly though that the DSC shouldn't be the only option as it restricts people on lower budgets and I feel that's unfair.

How long ago did you apply for your 6.5 then, they never gave me the option of a name mentor, could have supplied one no bother. In matter of fact my FEO, who I will not name, told me I needed the DSC1 to start with and if I was given the variation I may still need a named mentor for a period of time. I rang BASC and they said there was nothing they could do and maybe I should just go and pay for a half dozen accomp stalks on top of my DSC1 and I may not have to be mentored. This said, the very same FEO told me I couldnt change a FAC air rifle slot for a 243 as the calibre jump was to great, well we all know thats pants for a start. Word of advice, don't rely on your FEO to know about the law.

Afer much advice, a very respected stalking frienc of mine told me to apply for 243, 308 and 416 and if they refuse ask for it in writing, we all know were that sort of attitude gets us don't we.

The long and short of it was I did my DSC1 and applied for 243 for deer and fox, it meant that I had to have the land checked so there was a slight delay. I recieved my variation with deer and fox with no mentoring clause, six months later ( and a few deer) I applied to have the license opened which was done with no problem.

I was talking to a fellow shooter who is with the same force and he has been told the same, DSC1 or forget the deer variation and this chap has been shooting foxes for 15years with his 222.

It really is such a lottery, I heard of chaps applying for 243 and 308 on their first FAC and getting em both no bother while recently a chap on here had been asked for a mentor for a .22LR.

[Redgum]

For those who have a struggle with funds for the DSC1 I heard recently that a 75% of the cost grant was available for those who qualify, I will see if I can get more info on it.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Redgum

[markbivvy]

Ok, wondering a bit perhaps......

 

Totally agree, but would go even further, who is the say the DSC teaches the right things in the right detail, etc, and imagine how the price would go through the roof if was the ONLY way to a deer ticket, then consider all the ***** who passed it and thought they knew it all!

 

Don't get me wrong, in principle the availability of some training for deer cannot be a bad thing, and frankly many could do with it, but as a one and only compulsory route this will not be good for the shooter.

 

:good:

[DaveK]

The police are continually overstepping their remit and getting away with it, mainly because they don't get challenged.

 

All you need is good reason for the firearm and for .243 permission to shoot deer is (or should be) sufficient. All these conditions about deer management plans and DSC's etc are really non of their business.

 

Similarly their stance on higher powered rifles being, as thay put it, "OVERKILL". When did the average joe shooter EVER call in an airstrike on a warren because he'd seen two rabbits?

[Frenchieboy]

For those who have a struggle with funds for the DSC1 I heard recently that a 75% of the cost grant was available for those who qualify, I will see if I can get more info on it.

This really does sound interesting Redgum! Any information you can find will be extremely useful not only to me but to many others I suspect!

[Redgum]

The police are continually overstepping their remit and getting away with it, mainly because they don't get challenged.

 

All you need is good reason for the firearm and for .243 permission to shoot deer is (or should be) sufficient. All these conditions about deer management plans and DSC's etc are really non of their business.

Similarly their stance on higher powered rifles being, as thay put it, "OVERKILL". When did the average joe shooter EVER call in an airstrike on a warren because he'd seen two rabbits?

None of their business, you try getting an FAC at your post office then. When they told me what ' I had to have', I asked a very experienced deer stalker friend of mine what to do and he told me to apply for a 243,308,270 and a 416 and to ask for any refusal in writing. I ask BASC for advice and they were not ready to tell my firearms dept that they would have to give me what I want.

Using a polite and stealthy approach I gain my 243 for deer and fox and it was opened 6 months later, I still get on really well with the firearm dept, do I think I have been treated unfairly, no I don't its just how it is. I'm sure there is a bit of 'putting it back on the bottom of the pile' for the variation trouble makers in the firearms dept.

[DaveK]

None of their business, you try getting an FAC at your post office then. When they told me what ' I had to have', I asked a very experienced deer stalker friend of mine what to do and he told me to apply for a 243,308,270 and a 416 and to ask for any refusal in writing. I ask BASC for advice and they were not ready to tell my firearms dept that they would have to give me what I want.

Using a polite and stealthy approach I gain my 243 for deer and fox and it was opened 6 months later, I still get on really well with the firearm dept, do I think I have been treated unfairly, no I don't its just how it is. I'm sure there is a bit of 'putting it back on the bottom of the pile' for the variation trouble makers in the firearms dept.

 

So what's your point. The police are there to apply the law. Show me where in the firearms legislation that it says that animal welfare is part of an application or that you legally need to jump through the hoops that the FLO out in front of you? It's not there. The police need to ensure that you can prove good reason. Having a DSC or a deer management plan are not good reason for the grant of a firearm. Having deer on your land and permission to shoot it IS provided you meet the licensing criteria and conditions (land suitable for the calibre or an open ticket)

 

Don't get me started on BASC. It's been done to death by all and sundry in other topics.

 

I think that most of us (including me) generally take a polite and stealthy approach and that's what they want. It's their reason for existence and their power base. Which is why there are so many different interpretations across the country. But sometimes you may have to take a stand on unreasonable conditions.

 

We don't have a right to a firearm as we do with a shotgun but if we meet the mandatory criteria laid down by law and can show good reason then they should apply the law and grant one, not their own rules designed to refuse (although in fairness it may not be theirs but their masters dictat).

 

Finally it's not always a good idea to get a refusal in writing. Remember on an application/renewal there is a question about being previously refused or part refused that you have to answer. A refusal in writing would have to be entered here.

 

SEE YOU DOWN THE POST OFFICE

Edited October 31, 2010 by DaveK

[markbivvy]

So what's your point. The police are there to apply the law. Show me where in the firearms legislation that it says that animal welfare is part of an application or that you legally need to jump through the hoops that the FLO out in front of you? It's not there. The police need to ensure that you can prove good reason. Having a DSC or a deer management plan are not good reason for the grant of a firearm. Having deer on your land and permission to shoot it IS provided you meet the licensing criteria and conditions (land suitable for the calibre or an open ticket)

 

Don't get me started on BASC. It's been done to death by all and sundry in other topics.

 

I think that most of us (including me) generally take a polite and stealthy approach and that's what they want. It's their reason for existence and their power base. Which is why there are so many different interpretations across the country. But sometimes you may have to take a stand on unreasonable conditions.

 

We don't have a right to a firearm as we do with a shotgun but if we meet the mandatory criteria laid down by law and can show good reason then they should apply the law and grant one, not their own rules designed to refuse (although in fairness it may not be theirs but their masters dictat).

 

Finally it's not always a good idea to get a refusal in writing. Remember on an application/renewal there is a question about being previously refused or part refused that you have to answer. A refusal in writing would have to be entered here.

 

SEE YOU DOWN THE POST OFFICE

 

no no no.

unless you bend over and be prepared to be butt ****** by the firearms department and your shooting organisation, then you are not worthy.

[al4x]

It does stink the police shouldn't have any part in whether you are able to deal with quarry once shot and indeed they don't with most species its just Deer that they seem to have an issue with. There is no rational answer as they will issue .243 for foxes in numerous cases and have a problem with deer. The issue should be are you suitable to use that caliber as to me there is no difference between shooting foxes than deer and you have to abide by the laws governing close seasons etc or its on your own head not theirs

[DaveK]

no no no.

unless you bend over and be prepared to be butt ****** by the firearms department and your shooting organisation, then you are not worthy.

 

Which bit are you referring to pegleg?

[markbivvy]

Which bit are you referring to pegleg?

 

just beating me gums mate, crack on.