Firefighters Strike

[reddan]

Make them work regular shifts...........bunch of wasters........had it to good too long

 

 

Bit harsh, the whole of the UK is so charged at the moment any industry that sticks its head above the parapet gets this sort of comments, thats why I think strikes are a bad idea.

 

Everone wants someone else to blame. Living in the UK at the moment is a bit like being back at school. It was him miss he did it.

 

Dan

[KPV4]

Bankers didn't force people to borrow huge amounts of cash, that said the last goverment actively incouraged it. Ironicly in part the quest for increased competion in the financial sector caused the melt down because new players didn't have the deposits from savers and just traded the money markets to lend (example Northern Rock). Because they could undercut at the time the whole market had to drop to keep customers, so credit was cheap and freeflowing until the money market got nervious. I can remember a time where mortgages were loss leading products to retain or attract new customers. Not a lot that is sustainable about that but true.

 

The situation banking is in due to excessive leveraging will take a long time to unwind.

 

The reason the cupboards are empty is not because of bank bale outs but because the past goverments have been spending more than they have been getting in.

 

If I remember right 27000 people at RBS have lost their jobs, I am going through the second restructure in a year with again the threat of losing mine. So not exactly scott free.

 

Shouldn't believe everything or indeed anything your read in the media. They love to focus in on the bonuses of london traders because they make good stories and witch hunts sells papers but in truth they are only a small part of the equation.

 

I don't think the Banking industry has helped by not explaining the situation and why the media is wrong. No one has an issue with the car sales man whos pay is made up prodomently with bonus or in fact any other sales job which will always have a bonus element. The sums of money some have earnt are sick but the media has jumped on any type of bonus in finance as criminal when the rest of the UK sales functions continue to pay and receive bonuses whilst moaning about bankers.

 

Dan

 

 

 

Point taken, but some of us haven't borrowed a penny. I've always lived within my means. if I can't afford it I don't buy it until I can I'm very lucky the only thing I owe is my mortgage which I have had over 15 years, but to stay within my means there have been no family holidays (a roof over my head is more important) I've not been abroad in 26 years because I can't afford to go and do work to the house. So how have I contrubuted to the mess we are in?? and I'm going to pay, and worse case senario it could be with both my jobs

 

I say make those who did the borrowing pay back the money.

Edited November 3, 2010 by KPV4

[reddan]

Point taken, but some of us haven't borrowed a penny. I've always lived within my means. if I can't afford it I don't buy it until I can I'm very lucky the only thing I owe is my mortgage which I have had over 15 years, but to stay within my means there have been no family holidays (a roof over my head is more important) I've not been abroad in 26 years because I can't afford to go and do work to the house. So how have I contrubuted to the mess we are in?? and I'm going to pay, and worse case senario it could be with both my jobs

 

I say make those who did the borrowing pay back the money.

 

 

You are one of the few sensible ones. Look at mortgages alone, easy credit and a desire to borrow to the hilt to get what you want today rather than waiting has inflated property prices to such a level that it will take years and years for the cash that doesn't exist to be paid back. The link below describes how this has happened and indeed why when it falls apart it does in such style.

 

Fractional-reserve_banking

 

But can you see the UK going back to the days when bank managers could only lend on a mortgage when they had lots of deposits to do it? Average mortgage 100k, thats a lot of personal savings and just for one mortgage.

[southdowns_stalking]

Make them work regular shifts...........bunch of wasters........had it to good too long

 

I think they do now, 4 and 4, 48hrs a week...... dont think you can get any more regular

[artschool]

Fractional-reserve_banking

 

also know as the ability to print money.

[reddan]

also know as the ability to print money.

 

 

Leverage the money once, fair do's got to lend it out, leverage it over and over again and a disaster is made. You don't even print it.

 

Dan

[artschool]

Leverage the money once, fair do's got to lend it out, leverage it over and over again and a disaster is made. You don't even print it.

 

Dan

 

its disgraceful. we need to go back to a gold standard.

 

you should never be able to make money with money by charging interest.

 

its fine if you share the risk in a business.

 

one of the few things that muslims have right.

[starlight32]

That's right, but it's not even got to job losses, cuts or rationalisation [yet].

 

The current dispute is about implementing a new shift pattern of 12 hours, 12 hours and 12 hours (as opposed to 9 hours, 15 hours and 9 hours) and the fact that the firemen would be required to sign new contracts. No other changes and no whiff of redundancies [yet].

In modern memory, when has a strike been successful or been remembered as a positive?

 

There are just some things you can't odds. If you can run the same fire service in a better fashion, for less money and with less people then that's the way it will end up.

 

Look at the miners - you can strike all you like but nothing says "pit closure" louder or clearer than an industry which runs at a loss and which can't balance it's books. And did the strike help at all? It tore communities apart and the only people that seemed to gain out of it were the NUM.

 

I digress....

 

Successful?-The refinery strikes in Lincolnshire a couple of years ago over foreign labour. Resulted in jobs for our own, even though on a smaller scale.

 

Most painful has to have been the miners strike in this countries living memory.

[reddan]

its disgraceful. we need to go back to a gold standard.

 

you should never be able to make money with money by charging interest.

 

its fine if you share the risk in a business.

 

one of the few things that muslims have right.

 

 

Nice idea but it can be a sham, Muslims can borrow money they just do it in a different way, so it isn't call interest.

 

Gold is all very well but in your senario there would be a shortage of credit, more so than now (especially as Brown sold it all and told everyone he was going to so the market dropped). Anyhow we seem to have gone off subject a little.

 

Dan

[Heilan Coo]

And as for slating Firemen,Nurses,Police,lets hope you never need to call on the fantastic service they provide BB

 

Really?! Hope I don't need an ambulance!

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/ho...-tea-break.html

[artschool]

Really?! Hope I don't need an ambulance!

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/ho...-tea-break.html

 

he will have to live with the knowledge that he might have been able to save her for the rest of his days.

[Bluebarrels]

Really?! Hope I don't need an ambulance!

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/ho...-tea-break.html

 

 

Whilst that should never have happened,its an isolated incident,how many people are saved everyday?

 

i should have known it would have been a NEGATIVE,and not a positive post,that seems to be the trend on PW lately BB

 

or you just adding more fuel to the fire?

[Guest gloker]

Thought I would add my 2p.

 

 

We are unionised (mainly Unison but some GMB and unite)

We are always being balloted on industrial action over something or other.

Im in unison and owe them my job (long story) But I would be hard pressed to strike over anything if Im honest.

 

My job is a doddle. I get paid to sit around waiting for people to be ill or to hurt themselves. There is a big thing about mealbreaks at the mo. AVP is the buzzword. (Availibilty payment.) Basically i get an extra £1500 a year to be available at all times when at work. I can opt out of this AVP and have a protected mealbreak.(some city centre crews get hammered 12 hours at a time and never see station or a mealbreak.)

However if you opt out of this AVP you cant be given a job during your mealbreak. so you are guaranteed a sit down, brew, fag etc.

 

difficulties arise when a non avp crew member is crewed up with an AVP crew member. (happens quite a bit as I understand it.)

 

I personally am in the AVP and would never ever refuse an emergency. (to quote my old crew mate. "Its a **** paramedic that cant get a a brew and a butty on the hoof")

I am on a car team nowadays so dont get messed around half as much as I used to.

 

I have worked in city centre stations though (Leeds, Bradford and Hull) It can be a case of Book on, then shafted for 12 hours, going to drunk after drunk and not having so much as a sit down.

 

There are bad eggs in all occupations though and I have come across members of staff who have got into a " we dont do much, so dont want to do anything" frame of mind at quiet stations. Some have opted out of the AVP to simply demand a mealbreak within a certain time window even if they have sat on their ***** all day.

 

The Ambulance Service is a victim of being funded by the NHS. We are skint. We constantly overspend by zillions every year. we are overworked by 999/hospitals/GP/midwifery and are constantly understaffed and under resourced. (we were 9 crews down in east yorkshire last weekend.) Over managed(few of our managers are twitching about their jobs.)

 

Back to the OP ...Fire brigade...I wouldnt do their job for all the money in the RBS slush fund ! **** that for a game of soldiers. Balls of steel those fellas. When called upon to go into a burning building with nothing but a 'donkey jacket and plastic helmet' to protect them (I know its all mod cons nowadays but you know what I mean.) they just get stuck in. Much more disciplined and organised than our sorry shower. Yes they dont do the 'volume' of work of the Police and Ambulance service. But to be fair their jobs tend to be 'proper ' jobs not the dross we go to.

I have personally worked closely with the fire brigade on many jobs and they are to be commended to a man.

 

(I recently went to a fatal rtc and the surviving patient was cut out in minutes, nay seconds when i noticed she had stopped breathing. They dont **** about when the brown stuff hits the fan.) We saved her and she could go to court to face the death by dangerous driving charges she deserved. (drunk to boot)

 

In summary I am not having a go at anyone. strike away if you think it will make the differences that you want as a body . remember though, you will need the public onside if the strikes ever become prolonged. I know what it is like to be shafted by a management and can empathise even if I dont fully agree with what you are doing. I couldnt do your job full stop. You should be very proud of what you do.

 

These are merely my opinions. there are good and bad in all walks of life. I just like to think there are more good than bad Paramedics given that we are supposed to be caring medical professionals.

[artschool]

These are merely my opinions. there are good and bad in all walks of life. I just like to think there are more good than bad Paramedics given that we are supposed to be caring medical professionals.

great post.

[njc110381]

I think there are always two sides to every story. I can relate to what HD is getting his back up over - it's pretty rude to sack someone and re-employ them with a not so good deal. That's harsh. I wouldn't want to do a firefighters job and they have all the respect I could ever give them.

 

On the other hand I'm self employed. The economy isn't looking good so to get work I need to price lower. So what have I done? I guess you could say I've sacked myself and then re-employed myself at a lower rate. That's the economy, that's life. I don't like it either.

 

So I don't like working for less. It's that or nothing though so I have little choice. If firefighters pay needs cutting or whatever this punch up is about then I guess we'll all have to deal with it together. It's not fun and nobody likes it but hey, that's life. What really does get my back up though is the number of people in management roles on high incomes. In my mind it would be much better to thin them out and keep the workers but the boss isn't going to give himself a pay cut if there are other options.

 

Saying firemen would like to see a kid burned to death whilst they're on strike to show they're needed is just wrong. You have to be a pretty caring sort to risk your backside every day to save others so if that's your opinion, keep it to yourself!

[al4x]

Its not exactly sacking them though its saying sign your new contract and you remain employed, if you won't accept you are effectively resigning. Its sadly the only way to change contracts, its only to change their shift pattern and that causes this much agro. There is no mention of pay cuts, job losses etc which in the current climate looses a lot of sympathy. One of the issues is the unions have to be seen to be working for them same as the tube drivers etc its in their interest to have a fight as that is what they are there for.

[artschool]

Saying firemen would like to see a kid burned to death whilst they're on strike to show they're needed is just wrong. You have to be a pretty caring sort to risk your backside every day to save others so if that's your opinion, keep it to yourself!

then why choose that date to strike?

[njc110381]

It's a good time to make a point. How many kids burn to death on bonfire night? Ok bonfires set fire to sheds etc but most problems caused on Nov 5th are either minor or property/insurance based or an injury issue for the ambulance service. Kids don't fall on fires which then need to be put out - they die in house fires and car accidents which happen every day.

 

I think it's a very clever time to do it. It sounds a lot worse than it actually is which is good media sense whilst not really putting people in too much danger.

[reddan]

Its not exactly sacking them though its saying sign your new contract and you remain employed, if you won't accept you are effectively resigning. Its sadly the only way to change contracts, its only to change their shift pattern and that causes this much agro. There is no mention of pay cuts, job losses etc which in the current climate looses a lot of sympathy. One of the issues is the unions have to be seen to be working for them same as the tube drivers etc its in their interest to have a fight as that is what they are there for.

 

 

Work did a number on us to change our pension. Used to be a final salary scheme but they wanted to change it to a max salary increase of 2% or inflation whichever is lowest. The way they did it was to say that if you accepted your yearly pay review then this was acceptance of your new terms and conditions. So the choice was don't have your salary go up, obviously no increase to pensionable salary or don't have your pensionable salary go up by more than 2%

 

Being quite young and at that begining of my career this really sucks, you might say my pension before was quite generous and you would be right, its one of the reasons I wanted the job and I was lucky to nip in quick before they closed the scheme.

 

My point is they will always find a way to get round contracts.

Dan

[reddan]

It's a good time to make a point. How many kids burn to death on bonfire night? Ok bonfires set fire to sheds etc but most problems caused on Nov 5th are either minor or property/insurance based or an injury issue for the ambulance service. Kids don't fall on fires which then need to be put out - they die in house fires and car accidents which happen every day.

 

I think it's a very clever time to do it. It sounds a lot worse than it actually is which is good media sense whilst not really putting people in too much danger.

 

Technically I am sure that no one will be impacted by the strikes but I don't see it as clever timing, the complete reverse I think the public will hate the timing. The media don't care about the firefighters plight they just want to sell papers if they sell more by making firefighters the villains then that is what they will do.

 

Dan

[Mungler]

The media don't care about the firefighters plight

 

That's the bit really isn't it. The Country is in plight and if you are in the private sector and in the real world, it's real plight.

 

A change in shift pattern is not exactly top shelf "plight" that Joe Public is going to give a flying **** about.

 

They are striking on bonfire night, that's a real PR winner.

 

I am sure there are people queuing up to get into the fire service and ready to risk all.... and who will do so on a 12 hour shift pattern and a new contract.

[Bingo]

The media is owned by big business and they want the likes of the fireman and the other services to be cut so that large corporations (like theirs avoid any tax inxreases). If fireman and others cant strike then they have no power at all when it comes to negotiation.

[Mungler]

The media is owned by big business and they want the likes of the fireman and the other services to be cut so that large corporations (like theirs avoid any tax inxreases).

 

Yeah......

Edited November 4, 2010 by Mungler

[docholiday]

Yeah......

 

well said M.

doc

[artschool]

looks like the union has cancelled the strike.