Cranfield Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 Is anyone using lead shot substitutes, in their general shooting ? Some new land that I have access to , has an area which is a SSSI and we have been informed that we are not allowed to use lead shot there. The correctness of this statement is being clarified, but it made me think about lead substitutes. I know Wildfowlers have been using them for some while, but which are the best ones, are they available in standard loads and are any gun mods, or special care needed ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dead-eye-dick Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 The rough shoot area of 'my' land is an SSI bank. I have always used lead, never been told not to. We had to use non-toxic on a clay shoot near us, I didn't see much diffrance, but steel doen't travel as far or with asmuch 'terminal vilosity' so it will not be as good for "game" and all other loads are a frightning price - even for you Cranny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 i might be totally wrong here but i thought the lead ban just concerns shooting wildfoul??i dont know much about them other than they are very expensive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted April 13, 2003 Report Share Posted April 13, 2003 This is just another area where BASC, which was formed as WAGBI, has abandoned the very people that started the organization. I suppose their boffins get a few trips abroad to do research on the subject, but the rest of us now have to use a sub-standard product. I saw some Molybdenum shot at one of their wildfowling conferences. It seemed to be as soft as lead and almost as heavy, but I have never seen any cartridges that contain it offered for sale. Tungsten Matrix is nearly a pound a shot, I believe. "Under the terms of an international agreement the UK is committed to phasing out the use of lead shot in certain areas where waterfowl might be poisoned. England has introduced legal restrictions and in the rest of the UK restrictions are expected to be implemented by the devolved assemblies. To comply with the African-Eurasian Waterbird Agreement, which covers all Europe and Africa, England has banned the use of lead shot on all coastal foreshore areas and on certain inland and coastal SSSIs which are of importance to waterfowl. Additionally the use of lead is banned for shooting all species of ducks and geese as well as common snipe, golden plover, coot and moorhen. Similar restrictions are being considered in Wales. Public consultation has just finished but restrictions are unlikely to be imposed for the 2001/02 season. In Scotland a public consultation exercise is underway on what form, if any, restrictions there should take. Any restrictions are not expected to be imposed before the 2002/03 season. In Northern Ireland there are no restrictions being discussed. Where use of lead shot is not permitted bismuth, tungsten, tin and steel shot are used. Enforcement of the law rests with the police. Organisers and providers of shooting should ensure that all shooting under their control is carried out, where required, with non-toxic shot. Otherwise they may be liable for prosecution. Whenever game (or other) shooting takes place near wetlands important for feeding waterfowl, non-toxic shot should be used to prevent lead poisoning of the waterfowl." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted April 14, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 It looks as though the availbale options are steel...hevi-shot...bismuth...tungsten...tungsten matrix. Has anyone had any experience of these ? Any recommendations ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.223 Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 i have shot tungsten matrix and bismuth at duck and goose and out of the two i would recommend the tungsten as if i hit the birds they were dead we had only the odd runner with them but i have found that with the bismuth it does not kill as clenly i have put this down to the pellets not penatrating the flesh of the birds aswell i have plucked birds and found the bismuth shot lying just in the birds still visable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammergun Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 I tried tin shot some time ago. It has poor hitting power as it only caries about 2/3 the momentum of lead shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brain dead Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Can somebody please explain to me what an ssi bank is and what WAGBI stands for? (i need educating) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highdowns hunter Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 SSI = Sites of special scientific interest wagbi = wildfowlers association great britain and Ireland :ph34r: :ph34r: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brain dead Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 cheers highdowns hunter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red_stag88 Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 I beat on an SSI, one of two "floating forests" im Britain. Tractors dissapear it is that deep! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Because most of the non-toxic shot is harder than lead, it tends to go straight through the bird without expanding and giving up it's energy. That's providing the birds are within range, of course!! Most of our club members say that the only way a duck comes down, and is retrievable, is if you break a wing and a leg so that it can't dive or swim. They do not die through shock, like they would with lead. I think Ducks Unlimited found that there was a 63% increase in wounded birds after lead shot was banned Stateside! In the run up to the lead ban, the RSPCA were concerned that there would be more wounding of birds if lead were banned! The number of Black Back gulls seems to have increased on our area since lead shot was banned. They make short work of any cripples that can't be retrieved. Better than dieing through lead poisoning, some might say! With Tungsten Matrix reportedly at £20.00 a box, I have no knowledge of it's affectiveness. N.B. The harder shot produces higher pressures than lead shot, making most old English guns obsolete for duck shooting unless the amout of powder is adjusted. There are now 3 1/2 inch chambered 12 bores for use with non-toxic shot, but the logical thing to do is buy a 10 bore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malc Posted April 16, 2003 Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 Cranfield, my only experience of alternatives is steel shot. Even using heavier loads and larger than normal shot size it is very poor. I would go so far as to say that it is cruel to use steel as "in my experience" it produces more runners and pricked flyers than I find acceptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted April 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 The cartridge I am trying to locate (I think), is the Gamebore Impact 32 gm load/ Tungsten Matrix. This is the "best" killing and gun sympathetic substitute, according to some of my US friends. I,m suprised more of the wildfowlers amongst us, haven,t any comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted April 17, 2003 Report Share Posted April 17, 2003 Cranners The Kent Cartridge Co. were pushing the Molyshot, I think. I would say it looked the best to me. You could bite it and make an impression, but I have heard that they only sell it to Holland. Don't know it that's right or not. The first Tungsten 'shot' was bits of sintered tungsten encased it plastic. Tungsten will not form balls as lead does. I haven't seen these 'tungsten matrix' cartridges but imagine they must be similar. A few of our younger wildfowling club members seem to be able to justify buying them, but it's not for me. Cheaper to buy the ducks!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodeer Posted April 17, 2003 Report Share Posted April 17, 2003 I have to ammit that myself being a wildfowler in Poole harbour that all non toxic is quite bad. I think the best is Eley Alphamax Bismuth 36g 4 £17.50p Tungsten Matrix 42g 1 £24.85p Super Steel 32g 5 £4.50p I think that all non toxic is good for is the close flight pond work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted April 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2003 sam f, the Tungsten Matrix you mention, at £1 per cartridge . Who is the manufacturer and are other loads available ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil Posted April 17, 2003 Report Share Posted April 17, 2003 just to confirm this Cranfield,will you be shooting ducks on this land or decoying pigeons??if its the latter you may have to part ex the 4x4 to keep you in shells Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodeer Posted April 17, 2003 Report Share Posted April 17, 2003 Kent cartridge company, they are the only tungsten for sale in england. You can get anything from 28g 7's to 53g bb's. I have used the 32g and they are ok. £21 for 25. You are in Kent aren't you- if so go to John Forsey as he has loads of it and will advise you what to use in your gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted April 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2003 Mmmmmm, the belief is, that we must use non lead shot for pigeon shooting, on this SSSI area. At £21 for 25, I will just walk round shouting "Bang", that will keep the Farmer happy. Enquiries are still taking place to clarify what the situation is. Hopefully, lead may be OK. The River Darent runs through this place, but at this point its barely 5ft wide and I haven,t seen any ducks about (except the Farm ducks). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted April 18, 2003 Report Share Posted April 18, 2003 The cartridge I am trying to locate (I think), is the Gamebore Impact 32 gm load/ Tungsten Matrix. This is the "best" killing and gun sympathetic substitute, according to some of my US friends. Just found this. I presume the prices are for boxes of ten! http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/dept.as...=Kent+Cartridge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazza bad shot Posted April 18, 2003 Report Share Posted April 18, 2003 1st time ive done this hope it works. Ive been using steel shot for pigeons (and duck) for 2 years now and it is no where as good as lead over 25 yrds. But short of this distance it can be as nearly as good. We tested the theory by mixing steel and lead in the bag,shooting,and then seeing what shot we had used. At this distance there was nothing between them. So what i do now is go out with bags of both,and if it looks like a good decoy day i use steel,if its a flighty,jinky spinner day i use lead. The best load ive found is 32grm 4's or5's Super steel, through 1/4 or 1/2 choke, but dont put full choke or it could blow ya barrels up! The biggest draw back is (an elephants forskin) NO,is you must leave the longer birds, but on a good deekin' day not so bad. If ya wondering why i use non-toxic its because alot of my mates fly birds of prey,and the bestfood they can feed on is good old woodie,so i keep separate freezers of each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted April 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2003 Welcome Gazza bad shot, I,m glad you said why you used both types, I was reading your post and wondering. Its interesting about not feeding lead shot birds, to birds of prey. I,ve fed lead shot pigeons to ferrets for years and never thought there could be a problem. Perhaps its time for a re think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeMuller Posted April 26, 2003 Report Share Posted April 26, 2003 Here in the US, we had to switch to steel shot in the 1970s. None of the old guns could shoot it - too hard on the chokes. Steel also shots one choke tighter than lead, anyway, and you risk damaging any gun if you shoot it tighter than Modified. Steel was a crippler. Steel drove the new guns to have chrome bores and screw-in chokes. Then we got Bismuth, which shot like lead, but cost 5 times as much. You can shoot it in the older guns. Now we have Tungsten matrix, which is expensive, but hits harder than lead. It can also be shot in older guns. It really hits the birds, but is best on goose and turkey. I bought a synthetic camo pump gun for nasty weather and steel, and added a special long, extended choke for steel, so I still use it inside 30 yards, like over decoys or shooting ducks in flooded timber, where they are darting through the trees at 75 to 100 feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 Got an error message when I tried to post but it worked the second time. Is it possible to delete your own posts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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