.22 RF BULLET WEIGHT

[wymberley]

Paul, Hi,

You're dead right, 4.2 isn't any better. As ever the thread has wandered away from the OP. The wind is always going to blow and we're always going to miss some.

No, as far as I'm aware the makers don't seem to publish their rimfire ammo BC and I've always calculated it from the performance tables. When I saw your Eley figure I noticed it was way off mine and I wondered if I had a programme problem. Since your reply, I've noticed that it's only the Eley (my favourite) thats out - using your BC, the performance figures don't equate to those published by Eley and Kent has yet another figure. Consequently as my BC estimate coincides with what Eley say the rounds will do, as does my rifle which is all that really matters, I don't think it's my problem.

Cheers

Edit: Name Error corrected

Edited March 21, 2011 by wymberley

[Dekers]

Your Blind Faith in something you read somewhere is of more than a little concern!

 

Ah, so when you wrote "blew up before it hit the rabbit" you actually meant "missed a rabbit", that's clear now, we've all had rounds deflected.

 

It is only clear in your head, the round disintegrated, it was not deflected. Once again you have incorrectly twisted what has been said

 

I've seen some with damage, but not "vapourized", as I wrote earlier. For real world damage you could have a look at some pictures I posted after someone else asked the question about meat damage;

http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/156964-hmr-damage-to-rabbit-meat/

 

Well, if you posted them they must be pretty tame, mine have been deleted by the mods because they are too strong for this site.

 

 

I don't have a WMR, but I don't need one as my HMR shoots flatter and straighter. HMR was developed to compensate for the shortcomings of WMR. Everyone knows this ( except you ) so I don't need to buy one to find out. I have a 22LR, it doesn't shoot as flat or straight ( referring to wind ) as my HMR, although windage is close.

 

HMR WAS NOT developed to compensate for WMR shortcomings, the ONLY person who knows that is YOU! It was developed as there was a perceived need. Just which parts of WMR are you suggesting have shortcomings? WMR is 77ft lb more powerful than HMR and punches a bigger hole, and the HP don't pass clean through as often as the HMR, and therefore impart more energy. So the HMR may be a tiny bit flatter and faster (you really do need to look at the figures, I thought you liked that) try CCI 0073 and then explain the shortcomings of WMR over HMR to me! http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/products.aspx

So, on your reasoning, .22WMR was developed to compensate for the shortcomings of .22lr, Hornet was developed to compensate for the shortcomings of WMR, .222 was developed to compensate for the shortcomings of Hornet, etc etc etc etc, flippen 'ek, you have a serious amount to learn!

 

 

I read every time I shoot, I have a trajectory and windage chart taped to my stock. And guess what, it's accurate.

 

 

You really really really need to stop reading and start learning, just how do you gage the wind speed/direction over all terrains at all distances out to you quarry? Do you have a chart for heat eddies and barometric pressure as well?

 

I'm fed up with this now, what's the point of me quoting the published ballistics of the ammunition manufacturers and firearm experts worldwide if you're going to claim they're all wrong and you're right ?

 

you obviously forgot this section of my previous post, ........You are making assumptions again, you need to get out of this very bad habit, show me any quote where I have said HMR is more effected by wind than any .22rimfire

 

Probably best you do stop now, you are simply digging a deeper hole, you have failed the comprehension test again and are making erroneous suggestions, CCI and Hornady published Rimfire ammo figures are taken from different computer models, NOT LIVE FIRE, that's why they are different in parts, and that's why they are WRONG in part! Source, an email I have direct from CCI

 

You really do have a lot to learn, comprehension would be a good start!

 

ATB!

Edited March 21, 2011 by Dekers

[Dekers]

Catweazle, for your information, one reason why I suggest charts and manufacturers figures should only ever at best, be used as a rough guide, they are commonly a long way out as confirmed here.

 

 

 

My email to CCI

Hi guys, I intend to get GMK in England to order some of your 0073.22WMR 30g V-Max ammo for me. Can you help me understand please how yours and Hornady 83202 are apparently the same bullet and muzzle velocity but at 100yards yours is 150ft sec faster and 30ft lb more energy! Many thanks

 

 

 

Their reply

From: Olin, Linda (linda.olin@atk.com) on behalf of cciexpert (cciexpert@ATK.com)

Sent: 27 October 2009 21:18:45

 

Per our Rimfire Engineer "I would say it is the difference between Hornady's computer model and ours. There is no difference between products. " Linda OlinCCI/Speer Technical Services2299 Snake River Ave.Lewiston, ID 83501

 

 

 

...and you wonder why I question their figures?

[peek-at]

Wow...... this post stirred up some blood

 

I think its best if I stop wondering about bullet weights and trajectory diferences and just stick to what I have..... far simpler.

After all I can hit a rabbit at 120yds with my 22LR as it is, so why muck about.

If it aint broke dont fix it.

 

cheers

[gixer1]

I can hit a rabbit at 120yds with my 22LR as it is, so why muck about.

If it aint broke dont fix it.

 

cheers

 

 

And would this be with sub's or HV's?

 

If it's sub's your walking a silly line mate, thats way too far out for consistant 22LR kills with subs if taking into account drop (around 16" with subs) and wind drift (dependant on wind)...

 

pot shots are not a good idea!

 

Regards

 

Gixer

[Bewsher500]

I once shot a rabbit in the neck at a paced out 112yds down a tramline (unseeded field line rather than Blackpool promenade!) with a subsonic winchester 22lr.

The rabbit was a sickly old buck with nasty twisted tooth sticking out of its mouth. It needed to be shot, before I get flamed for being reckless.

 

Not a boast and not something I would try to replicate without good reason or having put 1000's of rounds through the rifle, and knowing what it does it what condition

6x32 scope off sticks and I was aiming a clear 8-10" above the rabbits head.

 

I also put a 3ft board out at 184 yds and put groups into it at 50m 100, and 184yds, same ammo.

The drop at 184yds was over 24" (29" IIRC) and 4-7" to the right with a group of around 6" circle

the wind was barely moving the longer grass from left to right.

 

no intention of ever shooting at that range but I was curious to see what happened past 100yds.

 

I dont put any faith in charts, they are used to sell rounds, not kill rabbits

[wymberley]

And would this be with sub's or HV's?

 

If it's sub's your walking a silly line mate, thats way too far out for consistant 22LR kills with subs if taking into account drop (around 16" with subs) and wind drift (dependant on wind)...

 

pot shots are not a good idea!

 

Regards

 

Gixer

Morning, Gixer,

This is purely out of interest because I can't seem to generate such a drop, could you give me a zero figure for that 16".

Thanks in advance,

Cheers,

Phil

[gixer1]

Morning, Gixer,

This is purely out of interest because I can't seem to generate such a drop, could you give me a zero figure for that 16".

Thanks in advance,

Cheers,

Phil

 

Although i could be reading it wrong! (i don't read these charts that often!)

 

But i would think that 16" sounds about right for a 50/60tr sight in distance...

Edited March 21, 2011 by gixer1

[wymberley]

Gixer,

Thanks, mate. Understand now, you were looking at bullet drop; but what effects us when shooting and allowing for ranges other than zero is bullet path. If you reduce your zero range below a given point, the negative path figure will actually start to decrease and is at its max. at about 13-14" given the normal sight height (22LR subs).

Cheers

Phil

[gixer1]

Ah, i see...so it's still around 7" then?? i just don't think22LR is best suited or should be used at 120 yards...

 

Regards,

 

Gixer

[Paul223]

Paul, Hi,

You're dead right, 4.2 isn't any better. As ever the thread has wandered away from the OP. The wind is always going to blow and we're always going to miss some.

No, as far as I'm aware the makers don't seem to publish their rimfire ammo BC and I've always calculated it from the performance tables. When I saw your Eley figure I noticed it was way off mine and I wondered if I had a programme problem. Since your reply, I've noticed that it's only the Eley (my favourite) thats out - using your BC, the performance figures don't equate to those published by Eley and Kent has yet another figure. Consequently as my BC estimate coincides with what Eley say the rounds will do, as does my rifle which is all that really matters, I don't think it's my problem.

Cheers

Edit: Name Error corrected

Phil, i have a book with published figures in, covers most manufactures and calibers, written by a world leading expert

Edited March 21, 2011 by Paul223

[wymberley]

Ah, i see...so it's still around 7" then?? i just don't think22LR is best suited or should be used at 120 yards...

 

Regards,

 

Gixer

Hi,

Absolutely, you'll note that I made no comment.

Cheers

[Catweazle]

Dekers, I can't be bothered to wade through all your posts to answer each point, so let's look just at the main bone of contention;

 

in reality I find my WMR performs better than my HMR is sidewind.

 

This is contrary to ballistic science, but to make it even simpler, let's imagine that we give the WMR the same style V-Max head as the HMR, with the same BC at 0.125.

 

Please explain how the WMR will out-perform the HMR with the same BC bullet flying 350fps slower.

 

Remember, we've already established that bullet weight has no effect that isn't already included in the BC.

 

Note; "It just does" is not a valid answer.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Catweazle

[gixer1]

Hi,

Absolutely, you'll note that I made no comment.

Cheers

 

 

Sorry mate, think i gave the wrong impression, didn't mean you thought otherwise, was just saying..

 

I'd rather sit back and watch catweasel and Dekers argue....

 

maybe we should have a pole?

 

just out of interest, if bullet weight has nothing to do with it - how come my 75grn 243's are more effected by wind drift than the 100grn 243? (just wondering, not arguing!)

 

Regards,

 

Gixer

[wymberley]

Phil, i have a book with published figures in, covers most manufactures and calibers, written by a world leading expert

Paul, hi.

Got a feeling that you're trying to be helpful but I'm sorry, mate, I've lost it. What are you telling me exactly? Are you saying that this world's leading expert is going to ruin my day and say that the Eley BC is as you said?

Cheers,

Phil

 

Edit: Sussed it! Things change, but once printed, books don't! Yep Eley subs BC 0.115. Unfortunately, these were the now obsolete Subsonic Xtra Plus HP and not the current offering.

Edited March 21, 2011 by wymberley

[wymberley]

Sorry mate, think i gave the wrong impression, didn't mean you thought otherwise, was just saying..

 

I'd rather sit back and watch catweasel and Dekers argue....

 

maybe we should have a pole?

 

just out of interest, if bullet weight has nothing to do with it - how come my 75grn 243's are more effected by wind drift than the 100grn 243? (just wondering, not arguing!)

 

Regards,

 

Gixer

Gixer,

No apology required, we're on the same wave length. Think you'll probably find that the 100gr has a far better BC!

Yep, good innit.

Don't like to take sides, but anyone who mentions "head" in the same breath as "bullet" obviously doesn't know one end of a cartridge from the other!

Cheers,

Phil

[Dekers]

Dekers, I can't be bothered to wade through all your posts to answer each point, so let's look just at the main bone of contention;

 

Well, that's not even a decent cop out, and you have read them all so far, ignored most of my comments, which you couldn't find the answers to in your books, and invented a multitude of things I have never said, shame you didn't read them more carefully, you may have learnt what happens in the real world and not on the pages of a book!

 

Dekers, on 19 March 2011 - 11:39 AM, said:

 

in reality I find my WMR performs better than my HMR is sidewind.

 

Which part of that don't you understand and which part of that says HMR is worse than WMR in the wind?

 

 

This is contrary to ballistic science, but to make it even simpler, let's imagine that we give the WMR the same style V-Max head as the HMR, with the same BC at 0.125.

 

So every V-Max head in every calibre and every weight will have the same BC will it? Oh Dear, didn't we get that far in the book yet?

 

Please explain how the WMR will out-perform the HMR with the same BC bullet flying 350fps slower.

 

Remember, we've already established that bullet weight has no effect that isn't already included in the BC.

 

YOU decided, not we, is there any chance you can read what I have said, stop inventing things and get your head out of a book!

 

Note; "It just does" is not a valid answer.

 

Try reading my posts again, as I have said several times, stop inventing things, understand why many charts are wrong, get your head out of a book and get out there and find out, and as you don't even have a WMR do not try and lecture me on how mine performs, no book or chart you can find will tell you how either my WMR or HMR performs or how they compare to each other, real life shows that!

 

There comes a time when banging your head against a brick wall hurts and it makes sense to stop.

 

Bye, all the best with your books!

[Catweazle]

no book or chart you can find will tell you how either my WMR or HMR performs or how they compare to each other, real life shows that!

 

I already suggested something might be wrong with your HMR, but you dismissed the idea, which leave me to conclude that your WMR must be better than normal. Please do tell, I'm sure we'd all love to know.

 

Which part of that don't you understand and which part of that says HMR is worse than WMR in the wind?

 

Do I understand that you aren't claiming WMR is better in the wind then ? You've already stated that there's nothing wrong with your HMR but your WMR out-performs it. Change your mind if you need to, but please do it clearly.

Well, that's not even a decent cop out, and you have read them all so far, ignored most of my comments, which you couldn't find the answers to in your books, and invented a multitude of things I have never said, shame you didn't read them more carefully, you may have learnt what happens in the real world and not on the pages of a book!

I've read all you posts, please bear with me and let me know which of your comments you would like me to respond to. Most of what you have written is just a distortion of wht I wrote. For example you just wrote

So every V-Max head in every calibre and every weight will have the same BC will it? Oh Dear, didn't we get that far in the book yet?

Whereas in fact I didn't say anything of the sort, I suggested a hypothetical WMR loading to help you get the concept of faster bullets with the same or better BC taking less wind. This is just one example of your sideways sliding on this thread.

 

YOU decided, not we, is there any chance you can read what I have said, stop inventing things and get your head out of a book!

 

If you think I'm wrong show me where.

 

In fact, write it down so we can all throw our ballistics calculators and reference books away and replace them with the Dekers Formula;

 

Wind Drift = BC x "Experience" / Pixie Dust .

 

It's been fun, but I think it's time to move on now. Perhaps I'll go shooting, or read a book

[Catweazle]

Don't like to take sides, but anyone who mentions "head" in the same breath as "bullet" obviously doesn't know one end of a cartridge from the other!

 

Would you prefer me to use Projectile ? Seriously, does it matter ?

 

Ref my knowing one end of a cartridge from the other, I know which end to put the primer in, the head goes the other end. That rule has served me well through thousands of reloads.

[Catweazle]

just out of interest, if bullet weight has nothing to do with it - how come my 75grn 243's are more effected by wind drift than the 100grn 243? (just wondering, not arguing!)

 

Weight does play a part, it affects the BC which is why I wrote "bullet weight has no effect that isn't already included in the BC".

[wymberley]

Would you prefer me to use Projectile ? Seriously, does it matter ?

 

Ref my knowing one end of a cartridge from the other, I know which end to put the primer in, the head goes the other end. That rule has served me well through thousands of reloads.

 

Et tu?

[Dunkield]

Ref my knowing one end of a cartridge from the other, I know which end to put the primer in, the head goes the other end. That rule has served me well through thousands of reloads.

Headstamp

Headspace

Coat

Get

My

I'll

[Mr_Logic]

This thread is definitely worthy of a chuckle...

[kent]

Did you miss the bit where I wrote "BC and Velocity are the required figures." ? I didn't think it necessary to include velocity when it was so obvious that the HMR is a lot faster than other rimfires, it seems I did need to mention it, so I did.

 

 

 

Better tell Hornady about that, they seem to think that expansion is an "also" benefit; http://www.hornady.com/store/17-HMR/ . Still, what would they know about it. If you really think it's not responsible for the good BC of HMR perhaps you would like to suggest how a 17grn bullet could achieve that BC without it. These people SELL bullets if you believe what they all say all of the time you must be a very gulible person. By the same count look at match bullets used in bench rest and f-class polymer tips are used but most competitors stick to std- an undisputed advantage to BC i doubt it

 

 

 

You mean like the extra 1.4" drift at 150yds in a 10mph wind ? Not massive admittedly, but a decent illustration of how a better BC can help. The BC of these two rounds is so close - the point i am trying to get through to you is BC is not the be all and end all and you WILL find that the data changes of BC depending on who's data you refer to. At the end of the day it comes from a calculation made on multiple distances chronographed at each, barametric pressure the barrel that fired it have a bearing and other factors besides. You strike me as someone who hasn't actually called many 10 mph full value winds or done much real hands on shooting by making such a remark as this statement of an extra 1.4" at 150 yds

 

But enough minutiae, do you agree that HMR shoots flatter and taked less wind than the .22 rimfires or not ?

This is like discusing driving with my eleven year old, waste of time till she has some experiance

Edited March 21, 2011 by kent

[kent]

so go on then where did you find that figure

 

 

you can not beat physics

 

 

 

 

The figures vary depending on were you look, even two different barrels will perform differently. BC is calculated from chrongraphed velocities at multiple distances along the flightpath of the bullet. So many factors without common controls mean you need to test data not just blindly follow it