Ian750 Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Right, got myself 2 new permissions the other day and to give you a bit of background, the owner of this land is an elderly widow who has let the land out to a farmer friend of mine. This incidentally is exactly the same owner/tenant relationship on another of my permissions which I had to have cleared, even though we knew it had been cleared previously as the now deceased husband of the owner shot the land himself. Lincolnshire FLO insisted I have the land re-inspected as they said they were computerising all of their records. So this morning did the normal thing, rang the Licensing Office to find out if the land in question had already been cleared and couldn't believe the answer. I was told that I am not entitled to enquire about any land not belonging to me because of data protection. The owner of the land must apply in writing, stating who permission has been given to shoot. I explained that in this instance this is very difficult to work as the previous owner has passed away and his widow has rented the land to someone she trusts as she doesn't want to sell the land, but also doesn't want it to be a burden to her. I was told that this is how it had to be done because of data protection, the FLO will not divulge the status of any land, and if there is any doubt whatsoever (which obviously there is otherwise I wouldn't be ringing about it) then the owner and only the owner can have the land cleared. Now am I being pedantic, or did they not completely disregard these rules when they allowed myself to clear land based on a tenants permission previously? I have rung and left a message for my FEO, but to be honest, I'm a bit shocked at this, and a bit ****** off too, as if permissions aren't difficult enough to come by! Opinions will be very gratefully received. Cheers guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 how long have you had your ticket, I'd put in for an open ticket and state it was due to difficulties with the departments data protection policy and being unable to find out whether land is cleared. Mark it up for the head of department and see what comes back/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 My personal view is that this advice from your FLO is an unjustifiable use of the act. In such situations where custom and practice have it that to all intents and purposes the lessee has the land and a right to control vermin (its in his lease)?to protect his crops, he should be the authorising authority. However, we all know FLO's have alot of beaurocracy behind them so 2 bits of advice. First contact BASC and ask their advice. If you arent a member and you get good advice JOIN as its the best protection we get as shooters and their firearms backup is probably the best. Second, ask your freind who leases the land to talk to the lady and gently explain the predicament, saying a confirmation of her agreement is all that is needed - choose your time to suit her and 10 to 1 she will be happy to do this, in a written form for your farmer freind who can then deal direct with the police. They will stall forever as they have to admit being wrong unless BASC take up your case and based on their experience talk to the FLO and 'explain' how its done elsewhere. Its about time we had a few test cases on this sort of thing. The police may however have a point if the relationship between the lady and your friend is 'Grace and Favour', as in law your farmer friend would have no rights without a legal document - but how would the FLO know that. You must be on a closed cert or this would not apply. Can you get it made 'open' yet. Thats the simplest way forward. Good LUCK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 +1 on the Open Ticket. Get two or more people you shoot with to write up personal references and submit them with a letter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rushjob Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 (edited) I'd take BASC advice but ultimately wait until you have spoken yourself to the enquiry officer, in my dealings with him he's always been excellent and is very pro shooting. If you still have problems then go to pen & paper. I know that contacting the office can be frustrating, the Lincs office has to my knowledge been quite understaffed for a while with a consequent turnover of staff and it is possible you may have been talking to a temp or a new member of staff. It took weeks for them to respond to a recent letter from myself regarding adding another gun on to my ticket. I always smile when the old Data Protection Act is trotted out as an excuse - most staff who invoke it's name don't actually understand what it is about and automatically default to " can't tell you " as a fallback. Edited April 8, 2011 by Rushjob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 (edited) I dont see how it is a data protection issue as all registered land the ownership of is a matter of public record. The clearence applies to the land not a person so i dont see how data protection applies? The Freedom of Information Act 2000 created a new category of data which extended the definition of “data” in the Data Protection Act to include any information held by a public authority which would not otherwise be caught by the definition. Where information requested under the FOI Act includes information about identifiable individuals, public authorities must consider whether its release would breach the Data Protection Act. The new category of data (which is often referred to as “category (e) data”) is designed to ensure that before releasing any personal information under the FOI Act, public authorities consider whether this would be fair. Processing category (e) data is exempt from most of the rights and duties created by the Data Protection Act. http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_organisations/data_protection/the_guide/key_definitions.aspx Want to really annoy them put in a FOI request for all land cleared for FAC use.... I dont believe it is possible to identify individuals from the FAC clearence of the land. But i would phone BASC firearms team if a member Edited April 8, 2011 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowen20 Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Hahahah lol just love the firearms department it's ace. I had a similar problem I live in south Yorkshire and my land is in west Yorkshire and was trying to get it cleared what a job that was. took 4 months almost what a Joke well when I first submitted the application to get it looked at I waited around 2 weeks the. Phoned my department told me it was being processed so thought ok I will just check if it is so I phoned west Yorkshire and asked if they had received anything asking them to check said land they apparently couldnt tell me because of the data protection act I said huh? I only want to know if the land is cleared not the owners bank details. I said I can tell you his name address how many sheep he's got and how many fields and anything else they could ever require to confirm I shoot there but nope wouldnt divulge anything ok fairy snuff. Phoned back a whole month later told them same again answer I got was totally different oh we've had the request to check it and i could tell you if it had already been cleared but we are processing it so phone back in a couple of weeks. Phoned back cleared to .22-250 lol thank god. Now I've applied for a .22-250 and have already got a .223 I can see a few problems arising from that AGAIN. Oh well all can be said is they sure do like to keep us on our toes and ready for an argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian750 Posted April 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Thanks for the replies gents, Al4x I'd love to go down the open ticket route, I've had my ticket just a year in a couple of weeks and from what I was told on initial grant I don't think they'll go for it, without even mentioning an open ticket the FEO said that what I'd been granted is as open as it gets, open tickets aren't issued any more. However, they also made me have a voluntary mentor, and since I've complied with absolutely everything they've asked, I think I might just pop a letter in the post requesting my ticket to be opened up, if you don't ask, you don't get, right? What is the normal timescale for open certs? How do you rate my chances after a year? Kes, yes I have recently joined BASC, I haven't spoken directly with the FEO yet, so I'm going to wait until I've spoken to him personally before involving them. Fortunately the tenancy of the land is all above board with agreements in place, so there is no issue of 'grace and favour' Rushjob, the Lincs office is a complete pain, I don't think I've ever had a question answered by them properly, I've always ended up phoning the FEO and feeling bad about it, because I've been asking questions I really believe the Office should be capable of answering. What made it even worse was the attitude of the girl on the phone, she might as well have said "well that's for me to know, not you" It took 17 weeks for them to process my initial application, another 3 months to clear some land I got pretty much straight away, and I lost out on loads of offers I had at harvest time last year, now this! I'm losing the will to live here!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durham-laddie Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 (edited) Right, got myself 2 new permissions the other day and to give you a bit of background, the owner of this land is an elderly widow who has let the land out to a farmer friend of mine. This incidentally is exactly the same owner/tenant relationship on another of my permissions which I had to have cleared, even though we knew it had been cleared previously as the now deceased husband of the owner shot the land himself. Lincolnshire FLO insisted I have the land re-inspected as they said they were computerising all of their records. So this morning did the normal thing, rang the Licensing Office to find out if the land in question had already been cleared and couldn't believe the answer. I was told that I am not entitled to enquire about any land not belonging to me because of data protection. The owner of the land must apply in writing, stating who permission has been given to shoot. I explained that in this instance this is very difficult to work as the previous owner has passed away and his widow has rented the land to someone she trusts as she doesn't want to sell the land, but also doesn't want it to be a burden to her. I was told that this is how it had to be done because of data protection, the FLO will not divulge the status of any land, and if there is any doubt whatsoever (which obviously there is otherwise I wouldn't be ringing about it) then the owner and only the owner can have the land cleared. Now am I being pedantic, or did they not completely disregard these rules when they allowed myself to clear land based on a tenants permission previously? I have rung and left a message for my FEO, but to be honest, I'm a bit shocked at this, and a bit ****** off too, as if permissions aren't difficult enough to come by! Opinions will be very gratefully received. Cheers guys! That information is not covered under the data protection act, as no personal information would be released. However, they also made me have a voluntary mentor....mmm can't do this either Dont you just love someone who clearly has no f-ing idea Edited April 8, 2011 by Durham-laddie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 I personally would phone the firearms dept again and ask to speak with the firearms licensing manager and advise him of your predicament. You obviously spoke to some underling who fobbed you off because she could not be bothered to deal with your request. I am sure when you speak to the manager he will sort it. Failing that I would phone/write to the Chief Constable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piebob Posted April 9, 2011 Report Share Posted April 9, 2011 I dont see how it is a data protection issue as all registered land the ownership of is a matter of public record. The clearence applies to the land not a person so i dont see how data protection applies? That information is not covered under the data protection act, as no personal information would be released. Agree with both of the above. Your Licensing Office is talking out of it's rear end. Data Protection Act does not cover your situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col1888 Posted April 10, 2011 Report Share Posted April 10, 2011 Ian I spoke to one of the girls in the FLO two weeks ago re finding out what a new permission was cleared for. I was not given any of this Data Protection waffle. I too can't see how it applies ! If you have the name/postcode of the land, name and contact details of the landowner/occupier, i fail to see what they are disclosing that would apply ! You may have just caught someone on a busy , or off day ! Col Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverhawk Posted April 10, 2011 Report Share Posted April 10, 2011 (edited) I had some land cleared in hertfordshire all i did was phone the department in that area spoke to a lady and gave her the post code.She got back to me and it was not cleared.I sent them all the details and signed permission and got a call from a feo to meet me on the land.All went well he looked around we had a chat and he was happy to clear up to 223. Edited April 10, 2011 by silverhawk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian750 Posted April 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2011 Ian I spoke to one of the girls in the FLO two weeks ago re finding out what a new permission was cleared for. I was not given any of this Data Protection waffle. I too can't see how it applies ! If you have the name/postcode of the land, name and contact details of the landowner/occupier, i fail to see what they are disclosing that would apply ! You may have just caught someone on a busy , or off day ! Col I completely agree, I would have just put it down to a bad day if similar hadn't happened before. FEO still hasn't phoned me back so I'll call the FLO again on Monday morning and see if the weekend has cheered them up a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 The data protection act only applies to people's personal information being kept on a database. Even then it is often misquoted. It cannot possibly in any way cover land being cleared for shooting. I think "data protection act" is a coded way of saying "can't be bothered to look" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col1888 Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 Ian Did you ring them today ? Any joy ? I had to phone them today about a piece of land and they told me no probs over the phone what it was cleared for . Col Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian750 Posted April 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2011 Col, no didn't speak to the office, FEO rang me back early yesterday morning and wasn't too happy with the reaction I'd got, said to leave it with him, he'd sort it out. An hour later he was back on the phone with the information I'd originally requested, I rather got the feeling someone in the office got a bit of a telling off! Anyway, the 2 new permissions have not been cleared at all in the past, and the FEO actually asked me about ammo usage and the possibility of further permissions in the near future, which I have another 2 of in the pipeline, so he suggests maybe it's an opportune moment to write in and request the land restrictions be lifted on my certificate!! Couldn't believe my ears!! So without much of a delay got home last night and started penning my letter, rang my mentor to ask if he'd write a quick letter for me, which he said he would. So, fingers crossed, hopefully in the not too distant future, my ticket might, just might, be opened up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col1888 Posted April 12, 2011 Report Share Posted April 12, 2011 Ian Good news mate ! I'm on a closed ticket too, strangely the girl in the office asked me if i was not on an open ticket. Think i will have to wait a while though, due to an injury i havn't been out a lot so i doubt my ammo usage would warrant it . Wonder if they are trying to get people on Open tickets to save them having to clear land ? Glad you got it sorted. Col Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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