Doctors Meeting

[phaedra1106]

As some may remember my Autistic (Aspergers Syndrome) son applied for his SGC last year following a very positive pre-application meeting with his GP (head of practice). His FEO visit was perfect and after 2 months we found out that the letter sent by another GP at the surgery (who hasn't dealt with my son apart from an ingrowing toenail) contained inaccurate information and a recommendation from the GP that he shouldn't be granted a license.

 

Durham Firearms were very understanding and in view of the FEOs positive report we were allowed to withdraw the application rather than have it refused and affect his shooting at our clay pigeon club where he has been a member for over 5 years.

 

In the last 6 months he has also joined 2 other clubs, one for indoor pistol calibre rifle/pistol where he completed the safety/provisional training period and an outdoor fullbore club where he hasaqquired his NRA Safety & Competence card.

 

Now that he has membership of 3 clubs, has passed all the required safety and training without problem and been shooting clay pigeon for over 5 years I have asked for a meeting with the GP to see if they are now prepared to support another application. I am however expecting them to say no, the medical evidence they have is between 3 and 6 years old and they have never had anything to do with his Aspergers as there is no medical treatment for it. Both GPs have admitted to having very little knowledge of it and despite being promised a referral to a specialist for an up to date assessment this has not been done.

 

So, any advice on how to approach this, do I try and reason with the GP even though he has previously given incorrect information to the police and refused to correct it, do I insist on an independent review even though they have said they can't as it's not an urgent matter or something else?. I am planing on taking a third party along as an independent witness to the meeting.

[Beretta28g]

What about a tape recrding of the meeting, a pocket dictaphone, ect.

 

 

Speak to the head of the practice the one who was positive before and try to understand the reasons behind the previous decision.

 

 

 

Good luck

[Mungler]

I think it would be better if the GPs were straight with you from the beginning.

 

I have no doubt that the head of practice gave you the soft soap and from there on you have had your expectations very badly managed, by giving you false hope.

 

If he had just said there's little chance or realistically no one here will sign off and risk their home and career for your son's hobby (and I can't make them sign) then that would have been the end of it.

 

As a question, will DVLA allow your son a driving license?

[foxnet22]

if your a member contact basc mate surely they can advise you on this matter.hope you get sorted atb mate.

[phaedra1106]

Head of practice has done a complete 180, first saying he may have been overly encouraging at our first meeting and later saying he only remembers us mentioned him wanting his own SGC as we were half way out of the door. We were in with him for almost 30mins and his application was the reason we went, if he wasn't so encouraging we would not have applied in the first place.

 

I've tried contacting other surgeries in the area but none have anyone with any experience of ASD (Autistic Spectrum Disorders) and the range of symptoms varies from "Rain Man" to 99% "Normal". Aspergers is at the lower end of the scale and the majority of his problems are with the development of his social skills and independence, his mum left just after he was diagnosed (aged 15!) and he went through a phase of angry outbursts (always directed at me) but this was just to re-enforce that I was there and not going to leave him as well, the only help we got was from an excellent member of the Transistions Team who deal with children between 16 and 18, unfortunately I only found out about them when he was 17-1/2, the doctors, social services etc. never even mentioned them, so all we got were 6 sessions but even that gave him and me enough insight into his behaviour and reasoning behind it to change things. He's still heavily dependent on me for a lot of things and these are only going to change with a great deal of support and time.

 

The GPs letter to the police says that he was discharged from the Transistions Team for lack of progress, what it actually it says is that at the time of his discharge (due to him becoming 18) he had had not made much progress so not the same thing at all.

 

As to the DVLA, I've spoken to the National Autistic Society and there are 1000s of Autistic drivers, I've also got a friend who is a driving instructor and he thinks he would have no problem.

[CharlieT]

I have PM'd you.

Edited June 19, 2011 by CharlieT

[phaedra1106]

The head of practice promised to get him seen by a consultant but then wrote and said that as it wasn't an urgent case the consultant had refused to see him.

[Scully]

As far as I'm aware,your GP(and everyone elses)is only obliged to give a diagnostic appraisal of a patients condition and NOT allowed to offer any opinion of that persons fitness to hold a SGC/FAC.This was one of the conditions the HASc was made aware of during consultations between ACPO and the BMC.I would advise involving your shooting organisation.If they wont,or can't help,join one which will.

[phaedra1106]

This is something I intend to bring up at the meeting, his actual statement in the letter is,

 

"I think given all of the evidence in his records, both from secondary care two years ago and more recently Dr T****. I feel that it would not be safe to grant J**** a certificate at this moment in time"

 

The only evidence in his records are the Social Services report which contains no medical info, his original diagnosis of Aspergers Syndrome from 2005 and the Transistions Team discharge letter which he incorrectly quoted twice elsewhere in his letter. The info from Dr T**** was from a meeting in 2009 regarding him leaving college and wanting a sick note to be put in place as we were advised to do this by welfare rights, Dr T**** made no entry in his records about the meeting we had in September 2010 regarding him applying for his SGC.

[Peppergun]

I have tried to take a fair and rational view of your situation, have a good understanding of Aspergers and would like to offer an opinion.

A certificate holder should have the ability to think clearly especially under stress. Angry outbursts, regardless of who they are directed at or for what reason, contravene the prerequisites for a license holder.

Aspergers is still a social and communication disorder regardless of scale.

As your Son is already a member of three clubs, he already has full access to the guns he wishes to fire and I presume you are a SGC holder and can accompany him during clays?

I think your GP was wrong to provide an opinion rather than medical facts and lead you up the garden path.

Perhaps the question instead of 'Why can't he have one?' should be 'Does he really need one?'

I would leave it alone and continue to enjoy shooting with your Lad as you are.

[Scully]

You need to know exactly what qualifies your sons GP in order for him to offer this opinion.It was made plain during ACPO/BMC meetings that GP's would under no circumstances be held responsible for any actions of patients,so possibly your sons GP has ulterior motives.I find it hard to believe he wouldn't understand the limit of his obligations.Looks like you have a struggle on your hands,but please don't give up.

[phaedra1106]

The angry outbursts were 6 years ago, since that time he has come a long way in dealing with his mums departure and subsequent lack of involvement with him (or his brother). Given the short time we had access to the Transistions Service we were able to help him see that his over dependence on me was a result of her leaving and that I'm not going anywhere, I'll be here with him for the rest of my life.

 

Yes, he can go and shoot with me taking him there and using my guns at the various clubs but I will not be here forever and have my own physical health problems which are worsening with age and the stress of being a full time carer. He does have a personal assistant who we get for 10 hours a week but she doesn't drive, clay pigeon is a 50 mile round trip in the middle of a forest on a Sunday morning, nearest bus stop is probably about 5 miles away. The indoor range is a 30 mile round trip, could be done by bus and would be an option for his carer to take him. Outdoor fullbore is another a 50 mile round trip and it's about 2 miles from the nearest bus stop.

 

The idea behind his SGC was to get him out and about socialising and having a life without being dependent on me, it's the one thing he enjoys enough to get off his PC and World of Warcraft!. He can manage to go places on his own, he's in Middlesbrough this weekend at an Anime convention, both yesterday and today I've taken him to the bus station and he's gone off on an hours bus ride and then came back on his own, unfortunately his money handling skills are pretty poor and he spent about £60 yesterday on what (to me) looks like very overpriced junk :(

[Mungler]

I would take baby steps first. Apply for a driving license. If he gets one you then a least get to preface your conversations on this subject with the fact that your sons got a driving license and cars are dangerous weapons in the wrong hands.

 

If you can't get him a driving license and your quacks don't want to know then.... Well there are some people who just can't....

 

Edit

 

I've just seen your post above and your dedication to your son is truly inspirational, but I can't see this having the ending you want. If it got it's way onto your son's record (medical, police or whatever) that your son can't be trusted with money but you are seeking that he be trusted with an SGC.....

Edited June 19, 2011 by Mungler

[Peppergun]

Sounds like he has made progress and you have a close understanding and bond.

However I fail to see how obtaining a SGC will create independence, you have listed transportation problems. Perhaps a driving license would allow him to travel to his rifle club and use their club guns?

[artschool]

Have you thought about introducing him to paint balling? This is something he could do that involves shooting and has a social aspect without the need for firearms.

[HDAV]

Have you thought about introducing him to paint balling? This is something he could do that involves shooting and has a social aspect without the need for firearms.

Hmm also involves aiming/shooting guns at people which is a total No-No in most other shooting disciplines!

 

Have you contacted http://www.autism.org.uk/ or http://www.theautismtrust.com/ They should have access to all of the relevant information and experts. I would also see if the CPSA or BASC (which ever you or your son are a member of would assist?

[artschool]

Hmm also involves aiming/shooting guns at people which is a total No-No in most other shooting disciplines!

 

Have you contacted http://www.autism.org.uk/ or http://www.theautismtrust.com/ They should have access to all of the relevant information and experts. I would also see if the CPSA or BASC (which ever you or your son are a member of would assist?

 

Just trying to be helpful as i personally think that pursuing a shotgun certificate is going to be a fruitless exercise.

 

Plus i hope you aren't suggesting that a person with autism doesn't understand the difference between paint balling and clay pigeon?

[HDAV]

Just trying to be helpful as i personally think that pursuing a shotgun certificate is going to be a fruitless exercise.

 

Plus i hope you aren't suggesting that a person with autism doesn't understand the difference between paint balling and clay pigeon?

No but paint balling is a totally different experience (at least it is when i have done it!) unlike the calm disciplined environment of Clay and Target shooting which the lad obviously enjoys, the adrenaline fuelled paintball arena is about as far from target shooting as you can get, archery, crown green bowls are closer!

[artschool]

No but paint balling is a totally different experience (at least it is when i have done it!) unlike the calm disciplined environment of Clay and Target shooting which the lad obviously enjoys, the adrenaline fuelled paintball arena is about as far from target shooting as you can get, archery, crown green bowls are closer!

Fair enough, but he likes wow, so would probably like paint balling plus it involves teamwork.

[HDAV]

Fair enough, but he likes wow, so would probably like paint balling plus it involves teamwork.

Maybe it is an alternative, but i can see issues like these becoming more commonplace.

[ack-ack]

Have you thought about introducing him to paint balling? This is something he could do that involves shooting and has a social aspect without the need for firearms.

 

 

 

....or fishing. Its still hunting, just make sure you take him somewhere thats actually got fish in it for the first few outings. I very nearly threw the towel in when I started due to constant dissapointment.

[phaedra1106]

Hi and sorry for the delay in replying but I've not been well and just when I thought I was getting better took my son out yesterday, for 9 hours!, clay pigeon in the morning then off to the range for rifle in the afternoon. And now I have the after effects of too much sun!.

 

Anyhoo ......... Paintballing and fishing, I did try to get him into paintballing but he's not interested, he really enjoys the types of shooting he's doing now. Fishing is a non-starter, he's just not interested in it at all.

 

Funnily enough I mentioned the doctors letter again at clay pigeon yesterday and his remarks about him being lacking in social skills and social interaction, everyone said he was very sociable, always replied when talked to and regularly started his own conversations with them on a variety of shooting and non-shooting topics.

 

I'm still unsure how to approach the GP, most of me wants to stuff the letter down his throat and demand to know why he's expressed his opinion given that he doesn't know my son at all, as I said he's only seen him twice in the last 21 years and that was for an ingrowing toenail. If he'd stuck to the medical evidence that would have been ok but he distorted what it said and gave incorrect information to the police, the most upto date report from the transistions team is over 3 years old and shows that even with only the 6 months of help we got (should have had 2 years but the doctors never told me about the service) he did make some progress towards better social skills.

 

I also need to think about who I take with me, I'd like an independent witness to verify whats said so they can't do another u-turn.

[stokie]

I understand and respect your devotion to your son and think it's fantastic that he has settled into a difficult sport . But something in what you said needs thinking about .

You say that his aggression was only towards you when his mum left which is understandable but you then say that you have failing health and are not going to be around forever. Who then will the lad focus his frustrations on given the fact that you have given him shotguns that could possibly be used for such venting . You also say he enjoys shootem up computer games what's to say he doesn't try that because of some irrationality when your gone.

I'm not picking fault because I admire the fact you stuck with him when others failed to I'm just provoking thought..... All the best kev

[HDAV]

Has the FEO or FLO actually met your son? Can you ask them to and let them make their own assement while not having a supporting letter from GP wont help the cause nor will it totally stop it, Did the application get as far as interview? The FEO/FLO is the person in the best position to ***** your son as that's what they do supporting evidence helps them build a better more detailed picture.

[phaedra1106]

Hi, the aggression was over 4 years ago and was a result of his mum walking out on me and the boys, she took my daughter with her and this has caused various problems for all 3 kids especially her almost total lack of involvement with the boys for the last 5-1/2 years.

 

The aggression was more frustration, there was never any physical violence and (as we discovered through the Transistions councellor) it was his way of enforcing the fact that I was there and not going to leave him as well. He became very dependent on me and still is for a lot of things but he is making progress to be fully independent.

 

Over the years we have talked about all of this and he has made good progress, he now has a personal assistant who he goes out with and has twice been to Middlesbrough by bus for a 2 day anime convention on his own, meeting up with people he used to be at college with. He went to college for 3 years with very minor academic problems apart from being constantly bullied, he's came home with blood all over his neck from having stones thrown at the back of his head and the last incident was 3 "young adults" (not what I'd call them) waiting for him outside college to fill him in, this time we called the police and got them involved. He left college in 2010 as there were simply no suitable courses they could offer him.

 

In every single instance of bullying or even being assaulted he has never once reacted or retalliated, he simply turns his back and seeks assistance and safety either back inside the college or by going into a nearby shop.

 

WOW isn't a shoot'em up, there are magic spells, mystical creatures and strategy, he has many different characters and has achieved some very high levels. He often goes on "raids" with other players in a group and interacts with them by headset/microphone.

 

The FEO did visit, interviewed him on his own without me there and was more than 100% happy with him. I've been told by the firearms manager the only thing that's stopped his grant is the mis-information supplied by a GP who doesn't even know him or anything about Aspergers.

Edited June 27, 2011 by phaedra1106