Coolhead Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 It's been mentioned by the gov before; My link I hope any new law removes any confusion and grey areas. Expect true weapons to be specifically excluded though, which is probably just as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darcshadow Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 at last!! but i hope they define what constitutes the forces you can use, for example they say stabbing as an appropriate example but what about shooting, because otherwise they will still leave a grey area i think this is very good though; it is pathetic people can be prosecuted currently for protecting their houses and anything inside of it... the way i see it, if they come into your home, Thats their loss, face the consequences, more like America for once because it makes sense! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 Asked about what this would mean in practice, he said: "If an old lady finds she's got an 18 year old burgling her house and she picks up a kitchen knife and sticks it in him she has not committed a criminal offence and we will make that clear." He added: "We will make it quite clear you can hit the burglar with the poker if he's in the house and you have a perfect defence when you do so." Mr Clarke said legal protection would not extend to anyone shooting a burglar in the back when they were fleeing or "getting their friends together to beat them up". "We all know what we mean when we say a person has an absolute right to defend themselves and their home and reasonable force. "Nobody should prosecute and nobody should ever convict anybody who takes those steps." :hmm: Lets wait and see.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breastman Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 (edited) "He told the BBC people were entitled to use "whatever force necessary" to protect themselves and their homes." - not at the moment they're not!! It has to be 'reasonable'. And what seems reasonable at 3am alone in the dark may not seem reasonable to 12 jury members in a nice warm court room Just changing the word ". . . use reasonable force . . ." to " . . . use necessary force . . ." would turn the whole thing around I will however, reserve judgement until the first poor sod has to go to court when this 'change' comes in Mark Edited June 29, 2011 by Breastman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guest1957 Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 Not a chance you will get off lightly if you shoot a burglar and rightly so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 (edited) Not a chance you will get off lightly if you shoot a burglar and rightly so eh I'd be interested to hear your rational behind that? Surely, if a firearm is 'accesible' then using it to defend your family, you and your property against intruders is no different or worse than using a 10" carving knife... in fact, there is much less chance of the weapon being taken from you as you wouldn't need to go hand to hand! That's a little like being stuck on a mountain in Scotland on the brink of starvation, you stumble accross a rifle next to a ghilli who has sadly had a heart attack and perished on the hill! 20 yards in front of you stands a nice big stag... you have hours left before you die of starvation but you choose this fate rather than picking up the rifle and shooting the stag..... because you haven't got a FAC and it would therefore be illegal! I don't see the logic to your statement. Edited June 29, 2011 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guest1957 Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 eh Given the nature of the responses given on other threads, allowing people to use guns to defend property will result in carnage as people do stupid things because the law will let them get away with it. You think shooters as a group will win any friends if it came to light that legally held firearms were used to shoot burglars 'to defend property'. It would be another nail in the coffin for shooting sports as pressure would mount to ban guns. Whatever the wrongs of burglary, the public wouldn't tolerate them being shot for long. Keeping guns in the UK as a purely sporting tool is one of the best things we can do, if we had the level of opposition against guns as there is in the USA they would be banned here because there is no level of constiutional protection. It is a lot harder to argue against guns for sporting purposes than it is for defensive means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 (edited) Given the nature of the responses given on other threads, allowing people to use guns to defend property will result in carnage as people do stupid things because the law will let them get away with it. You think shooters as a group will win any friends if it came to light that legally held firearms were used to shoot burglars 'to defend property'. It would be another nail in the coffin for shooting sports as pressure would mount to ban guns. Whatever the wrongs of burglary, the public wouldn't tolerate them being shot for long. Keeping guns in the UK as a purely sporting tool is one of the best things we can do, if we had the level of opposition against guns as there is in the USA they would be banned here because there is no level of constiutional protection. It is a lot harder to argue against guns for sporting purposes than it is for defensive means. Sorry guest... was embellishing my post while you weere typing yours.. I think your argument stands if the reason the gun was kept was for self defence purposes but we don't have that 'reason' available to us in the UK. I think there would be a lot more 'astonishment' and vilification from the media and the public if it was reported that a child was harmed during an intrusion, the householder had access to a gun but didn't use it for fear of the ramifications.. Edited June 29, 2011 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigeonEater Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 Has anyone heard about the man in Salford last week? 4 masked men burst into his home and he stabbed one of them and they died. His son and his sons girlfriend were also in the house. I wouldnt wish death upon anyone but i wouldn't like to think of what might of happened if he didnt do something. The man needs a pat on the back not being locked up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC45 Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 Mr Clarke said legal protection would not extend to anyone shooting a burglar in the back when they were fleeing or "getting their friends together to beat them up". Sounds like it will still be a mess when they have finished changing the Law... If your woken up at three am, it's unlikely your going to rush to the gun cabinet. If they are already in the house the odds are against you. What about keeping a weaponunder the bed, will this be legal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 Mr Clarke said legal protection would not extend to anyone shooting a burglar in the back when they were fleeing or "getting their friends together to beat them up". Sounds like it will still be a mess when they have finished changing the Law... If your woken up at three am, it's unlikely your going to rush to the gun cabinet. If they are already in the house the odds are against you. What about keeping a weaponunder the bed, will this be legal? It should be but I think that will ultimately be then seen as pre-meditation. The law as it stands or as it will be clarified gives a victim a defense if an intruder is killed or injured (as long as they weren't running away or getting out when siad defence occurs... this is what I gathered from Mr Clarke's comments) However, the way I see it is that unless you are legally allowed to 'prepare' to defend yourself, the law will always work against you. Not many people have 'legitimate' household items capable of being used as a defensive weapon in their bedrooms which is the place you are most likely to be when an intruder strikes.. In most cases, any such items would be in kitchens, cupboards, sheds & garages... so... if you defend yourself with anything that would not normally be found in a bedroom or en-route to the point of confrontation, be prepared to have a lot of explaining to do and probably be charged with pre-meditated, GBH or worse... There needs to be a fundamental change in the law, not just a clarification of it... we all know what it MEANS but unfortunately, the courts have to interpret that meaning for each individual case and that is where the whole thing falls apart and the victim all of a sudden becomes the criminal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 (edited) Do you not all keep a 6D Cell Maglite by the bed for a power cut? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Maglite-Blister-Cell-Flashlight-Black/dp/B000056BME There was a recent incident where a householder shot a burglar with an airgun. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1357901/Burglar-dialled-999-shot-air-rifle-breaking-family-home.html Sensible but if the burglar had not been carrying an iron bar? The house holder acted sensibly shouted warnings and ultimately had to use the gun. I wonder who in the anti lobby would disagree with this being a legal and right course of action? What if it had been a legally held and stored shotgun? or Rim fire? The current law states you can use basically a "reasonable" i.e. lesser force than threatened with, burglar with Knife you can hit with a golf club etc and you have to somehow assess the threat 2 x 16 year olds Vs one 30+ I would say the 16's have the upper hand armed or not but not the way a judge or jury or indeed the CPS might see it. I agree shooting a fleeing burglar, that you have disturbed, in the back is wrong, perhaps as is chasing one down the street with cricket bat and giving him a thorough beating. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6956044.ece However in this case not so sure............... But people have been done for restraining burglars while waiting for the police and how are you supposed to know the person in you living room, bedroom at 3 am is alone and unarmed? FEO's are happy with Cabinets fitted to bedroom walls? And to the keypad entry digital ones? (that don't need keys?) Edited June 29, 2011 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 they should not be in your house,and you should use what ever,but who would like to be the first test case not me, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 Has anyone heard about the man in Salford last week? 4 masked men burst into his home and he stabbed one of them and they died. His son and his sons girlfriend were also in the house. I wouldnt wish death upon anyone but i wouldn't like to think of what might of happened if he didnt do something. The man needs a pat on the back not being locked up! If you believe that case was straight forward self defence then think again, they either picked on the wrong bloke or there was something really funny going on. 4 blokes breaking down the back door to get in knowing the householder is there is no normal burglary. The law is clear at the moment act in self defence its fine, get prepared first and go on the attack then its a different matter. Its how it should be to stop vigilante action and more to the point mistakes happening Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigeonEater Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 If you believe that case was straight forward self defence then think again, they either picked on the wrong bloke or there was something really funny going on. 4 blokes breaking down the back door to get in knowing the householder is there is no normal burglary It is in Salford, its standard belive me. These arent cat burglars who go around with a swag bag, you get armed raider gangs that target houses as much shops etc. It happens a lot, mainly for car keys etc. Midnight raids are nothing new. If they think theres value in the house of course they will try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolhead Posted June 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 coo it's on the national TV news now. I'm with guest1957. Grabbing anything nearby is fair but using anything that is derived from a weapon like firearms, bows or swords starts an arms race. It won't be allowed. If a firearm were used you may be clear of a murder charge but you would clearly go away on a firearms offence. It is an excellent opportunity for the gov to make a change for the better. Let's see who is in charge though, the realists or the trendy liberal fantasists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZ550Kevlar Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 Aren`t you allowed to shoot burglars in the back in some american states? i remember watching a programme where a burglar was fleeing his neighbours property and he shot him stone dead and nothing happened. Why do things need to be so muddied in this country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckaroo23 Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 yes you my uncle lives out their in the south as long as you shhot the person in/on your property its ok kill them lay the boby on your front garden sit out side and lock yours doors till the cops come. how many of is tho keep some thing under tbe bed just in case i do and i beta most people do now days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 If your woken up at three am, it's unlikely your going to rush to the gun cabinet. If they are already in the house the odds are against you. If that's the case then you should have thought out the position of your cabinet and the layout of your house more carefully. People never plan for this sort of thing and it's daft. Just some basic preparation is all that's needed and it doesn't have to be obviously offensive/defensive or get in the way of every day life. I could easily be in my cabinet before a burglar had reached the bottom of the stairs and I keep the box of shotgun cartridges that is currently in use on top of the safe with the lid ripped off for ease of filling when I return home and empty my belt. Next to the safe is our office desk, which happens to line up perfectly with the top of the stairs but doesn't fit all the way down them. If anyone gets in the first thing to happen will be the desk heading down the stairs to jam on the bend before I even attempt to open the safe. This will make a very solid and tough to remove barrier. By the time they've negotiated that I will be in the safe and loaded. A thief is welcome to leave with the TV, I won't be able to get down to them and would have no wish to, but if they try to get up to me the ball is in another court and they're gonna to get some long before they can lay a hand on me or my loved ones. I'd say it would take a good couple of minutes to get up to us once the desk is in the way. I can be from bed to safe and loaded in under 30 seconds because I know exactly where my keys are (right there next to me) every night. None of this is done soley for the purpose of home defence. That's just how the furnature fits on our house and the way I go about my every day life. Shooting a thief is very excessive. Shooting a potential attacker isn't and I wouldn't hesitate if it came to it. Anyone willing to put the effort in to get to me after being held back has intent to do damage and if you can prove that you took measures to restrict them without harming them before using force your defence barrister is in a very strong position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klatuveradanikto Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 Aren`t you allowed to shoot burglars in the back in some american states? i remember watching a programme where a burglar was fleeing his neighbours property and he shot him stone dead and nothing happened. Why do things need to be so muddied in this country? WHAT HE SAID :good: WHY DO THINGS GET SO MUDDIED IN THIS COUNTRY? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark@mbb Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 There was more to the story in salford the old deer a few doors away had won £128k at the bingo a couple of days before and split it with her daughter four men / lads with balaclavas dont burst through your door on a burglary they were after a hostage or money by menaces he deserved what he got Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J@mes Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 If that's the case then you should have thought out the position of your cabinet and the layout of your house more carefully. People never plan for this sort of thing and it's daft. Just some basic preparation is all that's needed and it doesn't have to be obviously offensive/defensive or get in the way of every day life. I could easily be in my cabinet before a burglar had reached the bottom of the stairs and I keep the box of shotgun cartridges that is currently in use on top of the safe with the lid ripped off for ease of filling when I return home and empty my belt. Have you got 24" barrels and a red dot site too for close quarters combat? Got to admit, the last thing on my mind when I decided where to put my cabinet was "how easy can I get to it if I'm being robbed and need to blow someones melon off?" What does your FEO think of your "plan"? Give him a ring, tell him. Be sure to let us know what the result is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 There was more to the story in salford the old deer a few doors away had won £128k at the bingo a couple of days before and split it with her daughter four men / lads with balaclavas dont burst through your door on a burglary they were after a hostage or money by menaces he deserved what he got Mark Funny. To do that usually you have to have the upper hand. Looks like they menaced the wrong bloke! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigeonEater Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 There was more to the story in salford the old deer a few doors away had won £128k at the bingo a couple of days before and split it with her daughter four men / lads with balaclavas dont burst through your door on a burglary they were after a hostage or money by menaces he deserved what he got Mark yes they do, all the time....always something like this in the local news only goes national when something like this happens! Home invasion robberies are big business in that states why wouldnt it be replicated over here?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowchaser Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 If that's the case then you should have thought out the position of your cabinet and the layout of your house more carefully. People never plan for this sort of thing and it's daft. Just some basic preparation is all that's needed and it doesn't have to be obviously offensive/defensive or get in the way of every day life. I could easily be in my cabinet before a burglar had reached the bottom of the stairs and I keep the box of shotgun cartridges that is currently in use on top of the safe with the lid ripped off for ease of filling when I return home and empty my belt. Next to the safe is our office desk, which happens to line up perfectly with the top of the stairs but doesn't fit all the way down them. If anyone gets in the first thing to happen will be the desk heading down the stairs to jam on the bend before I even attempt to open the safe. This will make a very solid and tough to remove barrier. By the time they've negotiated that I will be in the safe and loaded. A thief is welcome to leave with the TV, I won't be able to get down to them and would have no wish to, but if they try to get up to me the ball is in another court and they're gonna to get some long before they can lay a hand on me or my loved ones. I'd say it would take a good couple of minutes to get up to us once the desk is in the way. I can be from bed to safe and loaded in under 30 seconds because I know exactly where my keys are (right there next to me) every night. None of this is done soley for the purpose of home defence. That's just how the furnature fits on our house and the way I go about my every day life. Shooting a thief is very excessive. Shooting a potential attacker isn't and I wouldn't hesitate if it came to it. Anyone willing to put the effort in to get to me after being held back has intent to do damage and if you can prove that you took measures to restrict them without harming them before using force your defence barrister is in a very strong position. Indeed this is well thought out. I have a book (more like a file actually) called the SAS Security Handbook. In it details how to protect yourself abroad, on the street, in your home etc. Tips like yours above are plentiful. I'm sure you did not get a SGC for the purpose of self defence, or installed the cabinet in your room for that end. My cabinet is in my room - only because there was no where else suitable in the house for it to go. I'd even say that a bedroom is one of the best rooms to place a gun cabinet short of a proper gun room if you are wealthy enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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