Psyxologos Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 OK. To cut a long story short. Someone close to me wants to buy me a scope as a gift. No special occasion, they just want to help me out. They said that budget is not an issue, but I do not want to spend over £2500. They went to a lot of trouble and spent hours on the internet looking at various scopes (I pointed them to the Zeiss, Swarovski and Schmidt and Bender websites) and features. They keep bombarding me with questions of the type: 1. Do you want a scope with an intergrated range finder? 2. What magnification? 3. Fixed or variable magnification? Now, a bit of background to my stalking ground: I will be mostly hunting red and Roe deer (but occasionally others, most probably fallow) in mixed terrain. The land is in Scotland and consists of hills, forests, open areas and crevasses. I am also shooting at targets with my rifle club, so I want to use the scope there too. Maybe in the future I take boar shooting too, so I am after an all arounder of a scope, really! The scope will go on a A bolt in .308 I was thinking maybe going for a variable magnification (say 2.5-10x56), definitely illuminated reticle (flash dot, maybe?) and certainly a scope that is capable of low light operation (something like Zeiss' T* multicoating) hopefully allowing for water repelling pearl-off effect and for simplified cleaning. I am open to suggestions, please help me out here. There are so many models out there, it drives me crazy. Plus, since someone else is buying it for me, I would like to make sure I get the best scope for the money they spend on me with a scope that will last me long and serve me well. Thanks in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highseas Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 s&b pm11 simply the best scope their is all most all the forses use one for a reason they come in at a cool £1800 thou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
durbsguy Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 In South Africa growing up, my father always used Carl Zeiss scopes on our rifles that were bought back in the 70/80s (so there was no illuminated reticle). We used 3-9 mag, not to sure of the model, I'll confirm when I get home. At school I took one of the scopes for my .22 Browning, but the scopes were used on our H&H375, Winchester .270 and the Remington .308. Now the scopes serve me on my air rifles until I can convince the Firearms unit that there is a legitimate reason for having then in the UK. All I can say is that they are still going strong 30 odd years later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sako 243 Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 +1 SB PM11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 OK. To cut a long story short. Someone close to me wants to buy me a scope as a gift. No special occasion, they just want to help me out. They said that budget is not an issue, but I do not want to spend over £2500. They went to a lot of trouble and spent hours on the internet looking at various scopes (I pointed them to the Zeiss, Swarovski and Schmidt and Bender websites) and features. They keep bombarding me with questions of the type: 1. Do you want a scope with an intergrated range finder? 2. What magnification? 3. Fixed or variable magnification? Now, a bit of background to my stalking ground: I will be mostly hunting red and Roe deer (but occasionally others, most probably fallow) in mixed terrain. The land is in Scotland and consists of hills, forests, open areas and crevasses. I am also shooting at targets with my rifle club, so I want to use the scope there too. Maybe in the future I take boar shooting too, so I am after an all arounder of a scope, really! The scope will go on a A bolt in .308 I was thinking maybe going for a variable magnification (say 2.5-10x56), definitely illuminated reticle (flash dot, maybe?) and certainly a scope that is capable of low light operation (something like Zeiss' T* multicoating) hopefully allowing for water repelling pearl-off effect and for simplified cleaning. I am open to suggestions, please help me out here. There are so many models out there, it drives me crazy. Plus, since someone else is buying it for me, I would like to make sure I get the best scope for the money they spend on me with a scope that will last me long and serve me well. Thanks in advance! thats easy to answer get a Swrovski Z6i and a seperate range finder,the scope in my opinion is the best on the market for a stalker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beardo Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 I'd go with a Z6i 2.5-15x56 as well. I've got S&B's, Zeiss and Swarovski scopes and I definitely like the Swaros best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magman Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 The scope your after does not exist Red to roe ,Target as well as boar , your asking a lot from one scope imho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark g Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 I'd go with a Z6i 2.5-15x56 as well. I've got S&B's, Zeiss and Swarovski scopes and I definitely like the Swaros best. probably the best all rounder, s and b crosshairs are too thick for me, dont forget you will need decent mounts, probably apel if you can find them and after you have bought a good scope and mounts you might consider getting a decent rifle to stick them on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 Now your going to put it on an A-Bolt stalking rifle? there is a limit to the size of scope you should put on that rifle and also a law of diminishing returns to figure in. With £2500 max budjet i would go Nightforce or US optics on another gun, however on a std a-bolt used in stalking a S+B variable up to 50mm objective without dialable turrets (not much use for target work but frankly a std a-bolt aint competitive anyhow. You should always spend a good amount on the scope IMO but would i put such expensive a glass on an ecomomy though very funtional stalking rifle? No i should put the extra cash into the gun and spend up to £1500 on the glass or keep the gun and book the hunt of a lifetime somewere with a 6x42 or 8x56 s+bender ontop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highseas Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 The scope your after does not exist Red to roe ,Target as well as boar , your asking a lot from one scope imho thats why i sugested the pm 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highseas Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 Now your going to put it on an A-Bolt stalking rifle? there is a limit to the size of scope you should put on that rifle and also a law of diminishing returns to figure in. With £2500 max budjet i would go Nightforce or US optics on another gun, however on a std a-bolt used in stalking a S+B variable up to 50mm objective without dialable turrets (not much use for target work but frankly a std a-bolt aint competitive anyhow. You should always spend a good amount on the scope IMO but would i put such expensive a glass on an ecomomy though very funtional stalking rifle? No i should put the extra cash into the gun and spend up to £1500 on the glass or keep the gun and book the hunt of a lifetime somewere with a 6x42 or 8x56 s+bender ontop the nf ret is way way to fine for stalking i used one for 6 month. he wants good light gathering= 50-56mm ob the pm has than variable power= the pm 11 has than dialable for target but still workable for deer with 100% reliable= the pm has that ilumanited ret= pm has than knock it shoot it heat it up cool it down hell beat a deer to death with it it will stay on zero, i would put my yearly wage on the line to say the pm11 is one of the best all round rifle scopes in the world,, hell almost every sniper team and police unit uses them, robert bucknell? yep he has them too. utterly utterly awsome scope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sako751sg Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 (edited) the nf ret is way way to fine for stalking i used one for 6 month. he wants good light gathering= 50-56mm ob the pm has than variable power= the pm 11 has than dialable for target but still workable for deer with 100% reliable= the pm has that ilumanited ret= pm has than knock it shoot it heat it up cool it down hell beat a deer to death with it it will stay on zero, i would put my yearly wage on the line to say the pm11 is one of the best all round rifle scopes in the world,, hell almost every sniper team and police unit uses them, robert bucknell? yep he has them too. utterly utterly awsome scope Complete and utter ****.I shoot everything with the Nightforce including 40ish deer a year and not once has the reticle been a problem.Maybe a trip to specsavers is in order fella. Edited October 1, 2011 by sako751sg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highseas Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 (edited) just my opinion every one has one.. i found it ok for day time but low light it was too fine under the lamp was the same if it was ilumanated it would be ok Edited October 1, 2011 by highseas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyxologos Posted October 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Many thanks guys. I appreciate the help! I shall have a proper look tomorrow morning and come back to you with questions etc! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie g Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) zeiss victory, good choice of ret's to pick from. stunning glass day or night. Edited October 2, 2011 by jamie g Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 The scope your after does not exist Red to roe ,Target as well as boar , your asking a lot from one scope imho Yes..and weight (The PM11 weights 2lb) and reticle, there is NO such thing as the Ultimate scope, and certainly NOT for a combination of a lot of things. Personal preference for sure, but that is Personal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12borejimbo Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 I would say a Swarovski Z6i 2.5-15x56 with a TDS4 ret, if i had the funds, I would of bought one of these, but just took the plunge on a mint second had Schmidt and bender 3-12x50 klassik with illuminated L4 ret! For £800! Brand new 1500 in sportsman gun centre! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highseas Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 zeiss victory, good choice of ret's to pick from. stunning glass day or night. this would be ,my second choice good scopes ive only used them breifly on some one elses riflr but i liked them a lot also very good in the rain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 just my opinion every one has one.. i found it ok for day time but low light it was too fine under the lamp was the same if it was ilumanated it would be ok It is, i used mine for years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyxologos Posted October 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) Many thanks for your replies guys. OK, so let us leave wild boar out of the equation, does this make my quest for a scope that will be good at Red and Roe deer as well as occasional Target shooting easier? I am tempted by these three: Carl Zeiss Victory Varipoint 3-12x56 Illuminated reticle Swarovski Z6i 2.5-15x56 Ballistic Turret again with illuminated reticle Schmidt and Bender Zenith 2.5-10x56 Flashdot Edited October 2, 2011 by Psyxologos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyb Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Swaro z6 all day long. The fancy turrets and added weight of a "target" based scope, are lost and pointless on a stalking rifle. The question should be.. What do you shoot the most? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) Having owned both S&B PMII and Swaro Z6i I can offer the following advice. These are arguably the 2 best scopes in the world for their chosen duties... The Z6i is the best hunting scope available, the PMII is the best marksman/sniper/target scope available.. There is crossover with both but not much.. The PMII is amazing, I have the 5-25x56 with MSR reticle. It has enough elevation and windage adjustment to reach 2k, massive choice of reticles containing as much information or not as you need. Perfect optics. On the down side, the illumination is only any good in the dark, it is very heavy & bulky and whilst you think 'yep, I could live with that, I guarantee you won't be thinking that after a day on the hill. It is also bomb proof... literally! If your shooting is to be more than 50% target (or you are a mercinary) then this is what you should buy. Currently around the £2,400 mark. The Swaro Z6i... I had the 2.5-15x56BT but had to sell it due to short term cash flow problems, however, it will be relaced. Very light and strong (ok, it's not going to stand up to what the PMII could but then, it was never designed to be battle hardened... the PMII was!) Glass is as good as it gets... period. Minimal information in the reticle which is exactly what you want in a hunting scope, although I did used to feel a few mil marks would have been useful for holdovers etc, mine just had the cross hairs and an illuminated dot. It also had the Ballistic Turret which allows for rapid and controlable elevation adjustment, this could work for target shooting out to perhaps 4-500yds but it isn't a target turret and would be useless shooting at a 1000 yards as I sometimes do. You also have a standard hunting windage turret, which again, wouldn't be any use for long range target shooting. The illumination is incredible, even on the brightest of days it will paint a dot where you want the bullet to go which makes for very fast target aquisition and, if necessary, tracking (thinking Boar here.) The 2.5x mag on the Z6i would also lend itself to running boar whereas the 5x on the PMII wouldn't. If your intended use is more than 50% hunting, then this is the one to go for. In conclusion... If you are regularly shooting targets 400yds plus or for some reason find you are shooting extreme range game then go for a PMII. The value of the adjustability and the information in the reticles will outweigh the weight and bulk issues. If however, you are only going to shoot targets occasionally and only out to 400yds ish, then get a Z6i WITH BALLISTIC TURRET, it will make for a far more practical hunting scope. Hope that helps Edited October 3, 2011 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Many thanks for your replies guys. OK, so let us leave wild boar out of the equation, does this make my quest for a scope that will be good at Red and Roe deer as well as occasional Target shooting easier? I am tempted by these three: Carl Zeiss Victory Varipoint 3-12x56 Illuminated reticle Swarovski Z6i 2.5-15x56 Ballistic Turret again with illuminated reticle Schmidt and Bender Zenith 2.5-10x56 Flashdot More sensible mag ranges, though cosider 50mm objectives will often go into lower std mounts and hence achieve better eye alignment/fit. I have a 3-12 x 50mm S+Bender Klassik on my main stalking rifle it is unilluminated yet on 7x i can use it under a good moon (obviously not for deer). 6x42, 7x50, 8x56 all give the same exit pupil and given equal glass should be equally as bright so for having to mount the scope higher on many rifles and paying the extra weight /bulk penalty your only gaining 1x extra mag during low light. For stalking and hunting applications S+Bender are the toughest scopes on the planet as far as i am conserned. I once dropped a rifle out of a highseat and it landed scope down, i tested it and zero had not shifted one bit even though the scope was badly marked! The reticules are generally too thick for target work at high mags i mean fine detail target shooting here in competition not a bit of fun on a sunday morning. I must say i doubt i have ever had mine up to 12x stalking but often wind it down to 3x in heavy woodland etc, 7x is the norm in the open country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 With the quality of glass your budget will allow, I don't think you need to go over 50mm [iMHO] IF you want to use it for boar you need to consider the scope that go down to the lowest mag. So a Z6i 2-12x50 would be my choice, but I don't think that would do targets if you are talking long range. Repeating what has already been said, what you after probably doesn't exist, you need to decide what you are going to do most of. Interesting problem to have, it makes a change from "I want the best there is for under £100" I would also add, I wouldn't spank all the money on hardware I would hold some back for doing some actual shooting, something people quite often forget about when they are sat at home rubbing their weapon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beardo Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Vipa's review is pretty much spot on, i favour the Z6i as i'm a hunter mostly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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