22lr HV versus 22lr Subsonics

[Dekers]

Looking at CCI's website seems that the Stingers are top of the range velocity wise and subs at the bottom (Ok so there's shotshells lower)

but in between Subs and the Stingers theres other 22lr hollow points, So, I'm thinking I might try some of them.

 

At what velocity does a bullet goes 'sonic' if thats the right word ?

 

Speed of sound at sea level = 340.29 metres/sec = 1116.437 feet/sec.

 

It does change with temperatuture as well, so you will get various answers if you look it up!

[TaxiDriver]

How far are these rabbits? Subs are good for 100 yds comfortably, though you'll need to holdover a few inches. Maybe you just need to get more familiar with .22 sub trajectory or get closer with a pre-planned hide position, or both.

Unfortunately you're not going to get anything to shoot flatter than subs without making a racket.

 

Thanks,

I'd love to be able shoot subs out to 100yrds, I just can't get nearer to these darn rabbits

In all honesty I know nothing about 'holdover' In fact I worked out that since getting the damn rifle in May I've only fired 130 shots and don't even know if I've got the thing zeroed properly I could see me selling the damn thing IF I wasn't going to lose so much money

[Gimlet]

Thanks,

I'd love to be able shoot subs out to 100yrds, I just can't get nearer to these darn rabbits

In all honesty I know nothing about 'holdover' In fact I worked out that since getting the damn rifle in May I've only fired 130 shots and don't even know if I've got the thing zeroed properly I could see me selling the damn thing IF I wasn't going to lose so much money

 

 

Forget the rabbits for a while, you need to punch some paper. Find a quiet safe spot on your ground and rig yourself up a target with a piece of hardboard - don't use ply, splinters everywhere- a heavy stapler and some paper targets. Preferably use targets with an all white background so you can see whats happening. There's probably some targets you can download from somewhere and just photocopy.

Start at 50 yards lying prone and resting on a rucsack or a shooting bag. Get 'on the paper'. If your zero is out dial the turrets in the direction you what the POI (point of impact) to move. Then shoot some groups of 3 shots. Practise practise practise.

When you're shooting tidy groups of less than a inch change posture. Try sitting kneeling and standing and practise those.

When your confidence grows move out to 70 yards, aim dead on centre and note where on the reticle the bullet is actually striking. Then aim higher until that point of the reticle covers centre of target (that is holdover) and practise shooting groups again. You now know how to compensate between 50 and 70 yards. It won't be much but you should get used to paying attention to small changes. Don't alter the mag. Keep it between 7 and 10 power. And just practise, box after box of ammo.

Set several targets up at different ranges from say 40 to 80 yds and shoot those from the same spot. As you gain experience you'll know how much holdover to allow (how much higher to aim) or how much holdunder (how much lower). Air rifle knockdown and spinner targets are good fun and without target rings printed on them they make you use your new-found judgement. Beware makeshift targets that might ricochet.

Just shoot shoot and shoot some more until you know your rifle inside out. The rabbits will still be waiting for you.

Have fun and don't give up.

[Underdog]

Plinking with a 22 is just about as much fun one can have and keep your pants on!

 

Years ago I had some long range rabbits to shift with a 22. I found Eley club and standard super accurate from my Krico back then and was on not to windy a day able to dial them in and make good hits. Even the less than perfect hits killed them well, something I never achieved with any other target ammo other than Eley!

 

U.

[njc110381]

It sounds like you need to get yourself a little more familiar with your rifle. We all have to start somewhere and I know it can be hard - I can only imagine how tough it would be to go it alone. I had a good mentor and the amount of stuff there is to learn is vast. I assume this is your first rifle?

 

What Gimlet said about the targets is a good idea. Ammo is fairly cheap so just get out there and use the gun. I din't bother with that many targets myself because I'm lucky enough to have a shoot with an orchard in it. I used to put hundreds of rounds down shooting at crab apples at various ranges and with various holds. I learned to shoot well quite quickly through trial and error.

 

A good sized target is what you need to get your zero sorted. Rest the gun, try to be calm and get the shot off well. You'll soon get it to hit the mark and then you can begin to learn your trajectory. There's no point at all in trying to shoot Rabbits if you don't know what the gun is doing. You'll just end up wounding things and getting frustrated.

[minghis]

Forget the rabbits for a while, you need to punch some paper. Find a quiet safe spot on your ground and rig yourself up a target with a piece of hardboard - don't use ply, splinters everywhere- a heavy stapler and some paper targets. Preferably use targets with an all white background so you can see whats happening. There's probably some targets you can download from somewhere and just photocopy.

Start at 50 yards lying prone and resting on a rucsack or a shooting bag. Get 'on the paper'. If your zero is out dial the turrets in the direction you what the POI (point of impact) to move. Then shoot some groups of 3 shots. Practise practise practise.

When you're shooting tidy groups of less than a inch change posture. Try sitting kneeling and standing and practise those.

When your confidence grows move out to 70 yards, aim dead on centre and note where on the reticle the bullet is actually striking. Then aim higher until that point of the reticle covers centre of target (that is holdover) and practise shooting groups again. You now know how to compensate between 50 and 70 yards. It won't be much but you should get used to paying attention to small changes. Don't alter the mag. Keep it between 7 and 10 power. And just practise, box after box of ammo.

Set several targets up at different ranges from say 40 to 80 yds and shoot those from the same spot. As you gain experience you'll know how much holdover to allow (how much higher to aim) or how much holdunder (how much lower). Air rifle knockdown and spinner targets are good fun and without target rings printed on them they make you use your new-found judgement. Beware makeshift targets that might ricochet.

Just shoot shoot and shoot some more until you know your rifle inside out. The rabbits will still be waiting for you.

Have fun and don't give up.

 

This is just about the best advice you could get, there's nothing many would be able to add to this.

 

On the subject of targets, I use old greetings cards and simply use the plain white halves. Get a ruler and with a pen simply draw a nice big cross. I find that using a thicker pen (like one of those sharpie things) is beast. You could check with a small spirit level that the horizontal line is perfectly horizontal once you've got it stapled or pinned, this way you know that when you cover that line with the crosshair you'll be shooting consistently. Then, all of a sudden you'll hit every rabbit you shoot at. Great feeling.

 

Some days I find this more therapeutic than trapsing around after the bunnies!

[TaxiDriver]

To Gimlet and NJC110381 and others,

Thank You for the invaluable advice.

 

Yes, It is my first rimfire, I've had air rifles over the years on and off.

I think you're correct and that a large part of it, simply getting out there and playing (so to speak), at moment I bought a 100mtr tape but haven't really gotten out there.

I have downloaded some targets from somewhere (Mytargets.com ?) Just need to make up a suitable holder/board(s)

 

Thing is I've gotten more than a bit frustrated with the whole thing and it all seems to much effort when it comes to it.

Edited November 9, 2011 by TaxiDriver

[colin lad]

As above I am zeroed @60yds with Win subs,dead on the money @100yds with Velocitors(about 2" high @50yds.I am fortunate that strangely my CZ is as accurate with Velocitors as subs although I rarely use them because of noise,tried Stingers & RWS high velocity but groups were appalling.

 

 

:good:

same as above win bang on at 60 then velocitors bang on at about 100 and they group very well in mine too,

also tried 6 other hv's and they were pants stingers were more like 6inch groups at 100

 

colin

[TaxiDriver]

Been out today,

And put 130 winnie subsonic rounds through.

 

Shooting from a seated position, off sticks, I measured out 50 metres, 75 metres. (these distances being marked on my scopes' AO scale)

@ 50 metres I could hit the end of a pop can nearly everytime,

@ 75 metres I could have pinged all around the can, all day long but couldn't get on target more than once(lucky shot?)using the mil dots on the scope.

@ 60 metres I was able to improve on the 75metre shamble but not maintain as consistant a result as those at 50metres

 

I was only plinking at cans today so its hard to see where the misses were going and by how far they were misses, other than into the safe backstop, I need to get/make meself some A4 target holders.

 

Better reward still for getting out there besides the practice, was being able to sit perfectly still just watching the 30 or so Roe Deer including two males with full antlers quietly munching across the wheat field to within 100yrds(maybe less) of me.

[kent]

Been out today,

And put 130 winnie subsonic rounds through.

 

Shooting from a seated position, off sticks, I measured out 50 metres, 75 metres. (these distances being marked on my scopes' AO scale)

@ 50 metres I could hit the end of a pop can nearly everytime,

@ 75 metres I could have pinged all around the can, all day long but couldn't get on target more than once(lucky shot?)using the mil dots on the scope.

@ 60 metres I was able to improve on the 75metre shamble but not maintain as consistant a result as those at 50metres

 

I was only plinking at cans today so its hard to see where the misses were going and by how far they were misses, other than into the safe backstop, I need to get/make meself some A4 target holders.

 

Better reward still for getting out there besides the practice, was being able to sit perfectly still just watching the 30 or so Roe Deer including two males with full antlers quietly munching across the wheat field to within 100yrds(maybe less) of me.

 

Forget what it says on your OA of the scope at these ranges an average .22 rf rifle with subs should hit the end of a can every single shot a good gun,ammo and shooter should certainly shoot bugholes up to 60yds at least. perhaps your ranges are very wrong or you have a problem with the gun, ammo or tecnique. sorry i havent read the rest of the thread i see no reason to even contemplate using HV ammo in a .22 you see

[TaxiDriver]

Forget what it says on your OA of the scope at these ranges an average .22 rf rifle with subs should hit the end of a can every single shot a good gun,ammo and shooter should certainly shoot bugholes up to 60yds at least. perhaps your ranges are very wrong or you have a problem with the gun, ammo or tecnique. sorry i havent read the rest of the thread i see no reason to even contemplate using HV ammo in a .22 you see

 

Kent,

 

When I bought the 22lr I thought it would be AOK for bunny bashing easily out to 100yrds, this I now gather is do-able but needs to be a good shooter (I'm not) 60-70yrds being more achievable(?) The HV rounds was an idea to push the point of impact out a bit further without re-zeroing the scope.

My target ranges are measured out with a surveyors tape so might be millimetres out but not yards(I hope)

 

I still feel that the laminate thumbhole stock of my CZ455 perhaps doesnt suit me particularly well, the comb seems very flat/low and I feel like I tend to roll my head over and find it hard to get a good sight picture consistantly, it also gives methe impression that the horizontal line ofthe reticle is not flat but slightly canted over but my rfd says is level.

Edited November 14, 2011 by TaxiDriver

[Underdog]

What you just said about the stock fit to you is very significant! To little in my opinion is paid to a rifles fit to the shooter. It is as important as a good shotgun fit!

 

If when you mount that rifle with your eyes shut and then open your eyes the aiming eye is no where near the sight/s you will always struggle. Maybe not from a bench but certainly most field shooting conditions. A shotgun stock has to be better than close in my opinion.

 

Could you try padding the stock to eliminate it from the equation, prove /disprove?

 

best wishes.

 

U.

[vampire]

Hi mate,i havent re-read the rest of the post,just this page,but from what i have read i would.....

1,use eley subs,really accurate through the cz

2,can you hold the butt with your left hand as well to correct the way you hold it,makes a very stable shot.

3,mine is zeroed at 65 yrds as most of the shots are between 50-80 yrds,so its mid point.

[Gimlet]

Glad to hear you're persevering. Stick to your 50/60 yd ranges till you consistent and confident. Confidence is vital to good shooting - if you think you're going to miss, you will.

You shouldn't be canting your head over. The cheek piece is a guide for your head, you don't have to cram your cheek bone on to it. You may prefer a standard stock but you should be able to shoot a thumbhole perfectly well with good technique. I would'nt start changing your rifle at this stage! (EDIT!! Just read Underdog's post, and he's absolutely right about the importance of gun fit. But I'd be surprised if you cannot shoot the CZ thumbhole with good technique. Maybe some other members near you or a club or range could let try another rifle to check. Until then, don't panic and carry on, as they say.))

If you are contorting yourself by forcing your face onto the cheek piece you're sure to be gripping the rifle too tightly. Imagine the gun is made of paper and will be crushed unless it is held lighty. Shoulder it in your normal way and then relax your muscles. You'll feel the gun settle in to a more natural position which will remain more stable during the shot. Now relax your grip in both hands until you're almost dropping the rifle. You'll be surprised how tightly you were holding it. If you ram a rifle into your shoulder and squeeze the life out of it you'll never shoot well. Practise shouldering with an unloaded gun until a light relaxed hold comes naturally.

Trigger action is vital too. You don't squeeze or pull the trigger. Only the tip of your finger should be in contact with the trigger blade and the action is more of a push backwards into your shoulder imagining the movement to be perfectly aligned with the axis of the bore. I prefer the thumb up hold with my thumb lying up the grip towards the back of the bolt. When I release the shot I imagine my thumb and trigger finger coming together to meet in the centre of the grip. When you shoot never move your head, or your eyes, until you see the shot strike through the scope. Lifting your head as you fire is the best way to miss everything.

 

Your Zero needs to be spot on of course. Take a stuffed rucsack and a couple of coats with you when you practise so the rifle is supported at the correct height with as little human wobble as possible. If you shoot prone then when the muzzle is pointing to 12 o'clock your feet should be at about 7 o'clock. Then raise your right leg (reverse if left-handed) till your knee is level with your waist. This will raise you chest and stomach of the ground which will take a lot of your breathing and pulse movements out of the sight image.

Now just keep practising and don't try to push your range too soon, you'll only get frustrated. Someone suggested earlier on the thread stapling a blank sheet to your target board and drawing a horizon line for your target circles with a spirit level to train yourself not to cant the rifle. I think that is an excellent idea. Learning good habits at the start is a lot easier than unlearning bad ones later.

Don't know what level you're at with shooting technique, so I apologise if all this is telling you how to suck eggs. To be honest though, all of us benefit from a regular brush up on the basics.

Keep it up and have fun.

Edited November 14, 2011 by Gimlet

[kent]

Kent,

 

When I bought the 22lr I thought it would be AOK for bunny bashing easily out to 100yrds, this I now gather is do-able but needs to be a good shooter (I'm not) 60-70yrds being more achievable(?) The HV rounds was an idea to push the point of impact out a bit further without re-zeroing the scope.

My target ranges are measured out with a surveyors tape so might be millimetres out but not yards(I hope)

 

I still feel that the laminate thumbhole stock of my CZ455 perhaps doesnt suit me particularly well, the comb seems very flat/low and I feel like I tend to roll my head over and find it hard to get a good sight picture consistantly, it also gives methe impression that the horizontal line ofthe reticle is not flat but slightly canted over but my rfd says is level.

 

Sounds like you need some hands on help there pall, practice getting a feel for things in the house_remove the bolt its safer. Aim and squeeze on the socket switches around the place sounds like you are feeling a bit like a pig with a shovel presently. Remember i don't know your RFD but many are just gun sellers, what you need is a good experianced rifle man to have a look at you, the gun,the way its set up and how your using it. Is there anyone local who might volenteer?

[njc110381]

I think shooting from sticks is a bad start. As Gimlet said, try to get down lower and shoot with the rifle quite nicely rested. I can shoot the end of a 2l coke bottle freehand at 100 yards, but I can (with a rifle that can do it) put five rounds through a hole smaller than a 5p when prone and supported. This will prove one way or the other whether it's you or the gun at fault.

 

As for targets just print them off. I make mine Here

 

 

Edit.... Don't bother making a board. Just tape it to a cardboard box as long as it's not too windy, or better still pick up a wooden fruit box from your local veg shop and staple them to that.

Edited November 15, 2011 by njc110381

[activeviii]

 

As for targets just print them off. I make mine Here

 

 

 

Top find.

 

Thank you

 

 

Phil.

[Alycidon]

I also bought a box of Stingers years ago, just the one box. Loaded my Anshultz with them, first couple of rabbits killed at about 80 yards, like lightening. Another sat at about 90 yards, fired 3 stingers at it, no effect at all. Reloaded a subbie and stoned it.

 

The rifle I shot them through a 1712 Anshultz did not like them, it grouped far better with subbies.

 

A

[kent]

HV become transonic before 100yds, subsonics hence shoot loopier but better as a result