njc110381 Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) Moving on from my Lil Gun load questions, I tested them all today and found something that I've never stumbled across before. In fact it's confused me somewhat! A few of you may know that I sold my .22 Hornet to a chap on here and then bought it back again. Well when it left me it shot 1/2" groups at 100 yards with 35gr V-Max, 13gr of Lil-Gun and CCI small rifle primers. When I got it back I'd learned more about the Hornet and had decided that I wanted a heavier bullet. So I've been through several brands and weights and just could not get the ******* thing to group! Today I went out with a range of loads with the mindset that I was going to make it work. I got new brass, a new tub of powder and figured I'd start again right from the beginning. I shot them all and learned something new to me - the gun has changed since I had it last! None of the lil gun loads would group. I even made up a load with some 35gr V-Max exactly the same as I used to make them before I sold it. Result - total rubbish! The only one I could get to group was a load with H110 which I've never used in this rifle before. The groups are so bad I've taken a picture to show you..... So how the hell does this sort of thing happen? The exact load it used to shoot into 1/2" is pants - in fact it's worse than pants! The H110 load with no development, a complete shot in the dark, is acceptable?! Edit... I know I need to shoot a few more groups to be happy but working on the basics it's pretty obvious which one has potential! Edited January 16, 2012 by njc110381 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willy1 Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) Neil, have you checked the rifle fully (silly question,but need to ask) is it still floating?,is it clean? Any chance of some-one else letting you try a different tub of Lil'Gun? Alan Edited January 16, 2012 by willy1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 I would be changing the scope for starters,I had a similar problem once the groups made no sence.turned out to be the scope moving about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted January 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 I was starting to doubt the whole setup and scope, mounts, woodwork were all running through my mind (along with a rebarrel - I recon it's seen 10K rounds). This is the second tub of Lil - Gun so I don't think it's that. It didn't shoot well with the batch that it used to shoot with either. I tested the float and it's fine, all clear right to the action same as it's always been. It's clean because I just gave it a damn good scrub through and then fouled it up with a few rounds before shooting the groups, again, same routine as ever. The scope is a decent Leupold so I've got a lot of faith in it. The mounts, well I don't remember the make but they were good ones not cheap junk. Unless something has broken in the scope I can't see that being the issue. I must admit though that was something I was seriously considering until the H110 threw in this group in the top right of the picture! I need to run a few more through it to be sure but I really get the feeling that it just doesn't like Lil-Gun now? Note that one group was at 50 yards (I'd given up at 100) then when that shot well I moved out for the last two rounds I had and they grouped near perfect too. Would barrel wear change the preference of a barrel? It's a new one on me but for now that's all I can come up with! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Its very cold out right now N. could the diff be the pressure is a bit lower in this weather. what time of year was it you last had it shooting anything like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted January 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 I've been messing about with little success for six months or more. I also don't remember having any issues with it in the winter last time it was on form? Lil-gun is temperature sensitive though so a good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooter Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 This might sound really odd, but has your eye sight changed? My eyes suddenly went dry about a year ago. I can only put down two or three shots before I need to make them water again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Is it silenced freind? If so try with it off. Has the crown been damaged or pitted? Is the bolt handle clear of the stock? Is the stock split between bolts and trigger/mag housing? Just how much clearence is there around the barrel? I like 1/8" or more. Best wishes. Underdog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted January 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) The rifle is moderated, but again even before I replaced the mod it wasn't shooting properly. It was shooting fine with the same mod fitted before. Crown looks fine. Bolt handle is clear. Didn't know that could be an issue but just checked and it is. Stock is fine. I stripped the gun and checked it thoroughly when I cleaned it because I was looking for faults. Clearance isn't 1/8, nowhere near. But you can pull a thick piece of paper or thin card down the gap. Again, it's the same as it always has been. My eyesight is fine I think? You saying I can't shoot straight fella? Edited January 16, 2012 by njc110381 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted January 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 What I really can't explain is that if the gun was at fault in some way, stock on the barrel or whatever, then why did the H110 load shoot as well as it did? The holes are touching - the grid squares are 10mm! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 What I really can't explain is that if the gun was at fault in some way, stock on the barrel or whatever, then why did the H110 load shoot as well as it did? The holes are touching - the grid squares are 10mm! As these where the last 4 shots i can only think that there is some movement between the woodwork and iron work, and the previous shots have settled it down and or heated the action up. Stock is fine. I stripped the gun and checked it thoroughly when I cleaned it because I was looking for faults. did it go back together right?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) As these where the last 4 shots i can only think that there is some movement between the woodwork and iron work, and the previous shots have settled it down and or heated the action up. Stock is fine. I stripped the gun and checked it thoroughly when I cleaned it because I was looking for faults. did it go back together right?? Was thinking the same Next time out and if still playing up with your pet load get some card and jam it in the fore end to pack the barrel and note any change in grouping. This is just my opinion but a paper only gap between barrel and stock is not enough. Had many a rifle like that only to see a fine rubbing line in the blue where the barrel has been vibrating on the stock and nearly every one improved once clearance was increased! Alternatively a well packed fore end tip will do the same thing forcing all vibration to the end of the barrlel where upon it is stiffer by being shorter! My old BSA's would creek when tightening the stock screws! Should of gone to spec savers I never said nowt' about your eyes U. Edited January 16, 2012 by Underdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotland rifles Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 could be down to neck tension. mate had the same issues with his .222 bob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 How well have you actually cleaned the barrel? Have you used copper remover and given it a good soak? Not just a little swab out. Clean it five times over with copper remover if you haven't already and leave it in each time for a good ten to fifteen minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted January 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 I think it went back together ok? I've had a lot of guns in bits before and not had issues after. If it had changed after I'd stripped it down then I would be thinking the same, but it was broke before I did anything to try to fix it. I'll let it go cold and try another group with the H110. If it goes off then I'll know that it could be play until it heats up. If it shoots well I'll just go with that load I think! As far as neck tesion is concerned I always crimp the rounds. The Hornet is well known for neck tension issues, although I'm using new brass now so it should be fairly consistant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hornet 6 Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 H110 has always worked better than Lil'gun for me with 35 grain bullets. Is the factory bedding still ok around the front lug ? Mine fell out a week or so after buying the rifle, bedded it properly and added the missing pillar and it improved a lot. Neil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
activeviii Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 The rifle is moderated, but again even before I replaced the mod it wasn't shooting properly. It was shooting fine with the same mod fitted before. Crown looks fine. Bolt handle is clear. Didn't know that could be an issue but just checked and it is. Stock is fine. I stripped the gun and checked it thoroughly when I cleaned it because I was looking for faults. Clearance isn't 1/8, nowhere near. But you can pull a thick piece of paper or thin card down the gap. Again, it's the same as it always has been. My eyesight is fine I think? You saying I can't shoot straight fella? I am saying nothing :yp: The barrle float was fine, tested while out checking loads. old moderator shot the same as the new PEZ, barrle scrubbed with in an inch of its life, copper solvent used as well. with exception to the N110 group, all the other groups don't creep in, one shot was on one side and then the next was on other side of bull Question. Do powder companies change the make up of powders as times move on. could there be a difference between the old tub of powder compared with the new tubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooter Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Question. Do powder companies change the make up of powders as times move on. could there be a difference between the old tub of powder compared with the new tubs. The make up of a powder can change between batches. I read a section on it in the last reloading manual I bought and it was quite detailed. It recommended buying two or three tubs of the same batch number at once and even blending your tubs of powder to get a more consistent product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Reloading is a frustrating old thing eh. As for changes in powder, Viht 160 can vary 10% + - according to the manufacturers. I recently bedded my Remmy 700 in 243, wanted to experiment with the cheap sps stock as wanted a light gun, the hogue fully alley stock I put on it was heavier and thicker in the forend. Both stocks allow for fully floated barrel, the hogue shoots nice groups with 41.5grs but the bedded sps stock shot the loads at over 2.5inch group, reduced load by half a grain and bang on. Think you should forget what it did in the past as you do not know what has happened to the gun in someone elses hands and start from fresh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 I have 4Kg of VitN140 bought from 3 differnt suppliers with 3 different batch codes. As suggested above I poured it all into a large container and gave it a good mixing before returning it to the original containers and now all 3 have the same powder in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted January 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 As said above though, the old powder didn't work either and it's been around since the gun was shooting well? Can't see it being a batch issue. I missed the question about the cleaning when I made my last post - yes it was cleaned well. I spent the day on it, soaked brush and scrubbed then sat it for 30 minutes while I did other things and then went back to it. It had that half a dozen times until the patch was coming out solvent coloured, then it was cleaned through with gun cleaner and then dried. I think it must have just changed preference for it's loads whilst it was away from me. I went straight into developing a heavier load as soon as it came back and I just couldn't get it to work. I have no doubt that the chap who had it looked after it, I think it's just worn a bit since it left me? As every barrel is different and doesn't like the same ammo, is it possible that wear could make it's liking change over time? That's really all I can see that could be wrong. Generally I'm pretty good at finding the problem when guns go off so perhaps this isn't even a problem at all? :look: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Yes as wear comes in changes are needed. Usually seating further out. The thing is Hornets don't really wear out! Corrosion will wear a Hornet out first! How does the breech end look? Still got a crisp start to the rifling? Have you shot it again yet? U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted January 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 I've got a busy week at work - probably won't get to try anything until the weekend now. When I clean it the barrel feels tighter at the muzzle end like it's choked. This seems more obvious now than it did so perhaps the breech end is wearing slightly? Could just be me of course! It does have one very small pit in the barrel but that's always been there. As far as I can tell it's not changed and when I had the barrel shortened just after I first bought the gun I was told it was nothing to worry about. The work was done by Brock and Norris so it's a first class job. I know it's said that Hornet barrels don't wear but is that right? It's seen a serious number of rounds in it's life - it's got to wear eventually?! I shot a bullet into a tub of water the other day and fished it out - the rifling marks in the jacket didn't look that deep or sharp as I'd expect so wear does seem the obvious answer. It's never shown any sign of corrosion apart from that one little pit though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 quote name='njc110381' timestamp='1326828669' post='1654832'] I've got a busy week at work - probably won't get to try anything until the weekend now. When I clean it the barrel feels tighter at the muzzle end like it's choked. This seems more obvious now than it did so perhaps the breech end is wearing slightly? Could just be me of course! It does have one very small pit in the barrel but that's always been there. As far as I can tell it's not changed and when I had the barrel shortened just after I first bought the gun I was told it was nothing to worry about. The work was done by Brock and Norris so it's a first class job. I know it's said that Hornet barrels don't wear but is that right? It's seen a serious number of rounds in it's life - it's got to wear eventually?! I shot a bullet into a tub of water the other day and fished it out - the rifling marks in the jacket didn't look that deep or sharp as I'd expect so wear does seem the obvious answer. It's never shown any sign of corrosion apart from that one little pit though. When I got a Bruno years ago it's basic handbook talked of a number of shots the steel barrel was good for. I can not remember how many it said, I think it was 4000 but may of been 7000! I too would not worry about the pit unless at the very start or on the crown. The tapering feel on a jag is of concern! Even a choked barrel should be very hard to detect! That don't mean it is finnished! It may just mean a new load is needed. Please keep us informed and please try packing the barrel if you can just to see if there is an issue there. It would be good if that barrel got a boost of new life from better free float or extra support, I mean what if that barrel has been giving good service when infact it could of done even better!! The Bruno (am I spelling that correct?) I had years ago the stock forearm warped and bent to the left on me just touching the barrel! I had to make a jig to hold and wedge it across upside down so I could steam it for hours over the stove. It worked and groups improved. Best wishes, I have a huge soft spot for Hornet, it is capable of much more than it's size would suggest! U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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