Drayman Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 I know some folks won't believe this but it's just some food for thought. I've already posted in other threads that people who are left eye dominant but throw a ball with their right hand still hit the target! So being an experimental type - it's part of the job too - I tried this exercise today. I'm right eye dominant and shoot right shoulder. Looking hard at a really well defined object some 40 yds off I closed my right eye and mounted the gun as usual - I don't pre-mount for shooting. The barrel end was obviously off target, in fact it appeared to be way off to the right, for the vision I had from my left eye and really distracted my view. I did the same again. Stared at the target with my right eye closed. Mounted the gun and then quickly swapped to my right eye - the gun was spot on target. Tried it several times and it went straight to target. It only works if you ignore the barrel completely, look at the target and trust the gun is going to point where you are looking (consistent mount). Just brings it home a little more that consistent gun mount and looking at the target is more important than eye dominance (in my opinion). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 Interesting stuff can you hit a moving target doing the same ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayman Posted January 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 As long as it isn't peeing it down with rain next Saturday I'll let you know - but as it seems the gun is pointing in the right direction I don't see why it shouldn't work. The real difficulty is if for one moment your left eye (right eye closed) glances at the end of the barrel it looks miles off target and you are tempted to move the gun, which then puts it off target - fact is, it is already on target. A bit of mind over matter but I'll give it a go. I think you and I know that this may well work on driven or going away but anything quartering (in or away) or crossing is going to be a lot harder. But, if it works on things in a straight line it really seems to say that eye dominance isn't all it's cracked up to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 Your sight picture is your sight picture some people see 6" of lead others 3' but as long as it works for you it works if it's repeatable your fine eye dominace uncorrected doesn't make you a bad shot it's very personal to the shooter until you have shot through someone else's eyes eyes it's nigh on impossible to understand, I have suffered with it and still do a bit but that is more my poor technique than my eyes but interested to hear your results Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 Just keep both eyes open,that way your brain has the best information to pass to your body and point in the right direction,i am left handed,and right eye dominant,i started shooting left handed,but changed to right handed for rifles,and continued right handed with shotguns,i can still shoot left handed,but it now feels more natural after all these years to shoot right handed, as you have noticed if you close one eye it looks like it is off target,but if you keep both open you shouldn't have that,trust your instinct,when you were a kid you could hit things when you threw a stone,and you had both eyes open then. You can also shoot a rifle with a scope with both eyes open,it feels weird at first but your brain adapts very quickly,you will be surprised how many more bunnies you see with both eyes open when using the scope, as you will catch bunnies in your peripheral vision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaikalsRule90 Posted January 28, 2012 Report Share Posted January 28, 2012 Im left eye dominant and shoot right handed and seem to get on fine though i have to close my left eye. which is a big no no apparently... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loomer Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 Im left eye dominant and shoot right handed and seem to get on fine though i have to close my left eye. which is a big no no apparently... I do exactly the same. I tried messing around with opaque spots on my shooting glasses and trying to over-compensate. I even tried switching to shooting left handed for a bit. In the end, I've realised I'm never going to be a AAA shooter, and all the distractions were ruining my days out shooting, so **** it. Don't force the issue, everyone shoots differently, just do what feels natural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psych4shooting Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 For me, and I have been shooting for a good few years now. I always shot right handed, from the early days of learning with my Dad. I agree that shoot what feels natural for you, but also there are varying forms of eye dominance and also a fluctuation in eyes. Boys/Men will see a change in eye dominance as they go through puberty and as they grow, with eyes not properly settling until the mid 20`s, then it is not uncommon for the eyes to change again in the 30`s or 40`s, in terms of dominance. I had such severe left eye dominance that I eventually swopped shoulders and now shoot of my left shoulder. It took time to master this, but I shoot pretty well off the left now. I could have and there is no reason why I would not have, stayed shooting on my right, with a small smear of vasaline over my left glasses lense, this gave me full vision of a target up until the gun became mounted. As long as you can learn to shoot a way that means you can consistently break a target then it is not the end of the World. Yes most top shots shoot both eyes open, but some don`t. Your eyes are a muscle at the end of the day and you can get your eyes to do different things, there has been much research over many years on this in different sports and is a fascinating subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I dont see the point-if your left eye calls the shots then just shoot from your left shoulder rather than wreck your sight picture-otherwise you are relying on perfect gun fit and extremely consistent mounting-which few of us can afford or guarantee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) Because not everybody can or is comfortable shooting from the left, also central or no overall dominance means shooting from the left or right for that matter, offers no benefit. Here is an article about what the OP is suggesting, shooting with both eyes open, then left and right eye shut from the right shoulder. Linky The study is 10 years old so where he suggests “Since true dominance does not disappear, there appears to be an ability to superimpose right dominance onto pre-existing left dominance.” And “It may be possible to train the dominant eye using occlusion therapy; this learnt dominance would be superimposed on top of natural dominance. This may have implications in our understanding of cerebral plasticity and the importance of change and learning in the maintenance of intellectual capacity” has now been qualified . Research by Dr Michael Merzenich and his colleagues proves that brain plasticity (ability to rewire path ways in the brain) exists in adults as well as juveniles and there is another separate paper called “Visual deprivation reactivates persistent, juvenile-like ocular dominance plasticity in adults.” Proving that the natural eye dominance can be ‘rewired’ in adults by blocking the dominant eye for a period of time. I could posts links if anyone is interested but it’s very in depth and geeky and has nothing to do with shooting only the ability to rewire the brain in adults that was widely thought not possible 15 to 20 years ago. It’s an ongoing subject, we are still learning about how to deal with it, if you asked 15 years ago could you change dominance, most neurologists would have said no due to sensory pathways being fixed in adulthood, now due to new research they will say yes. So in theory you should be able to reaffirm dominance in which ever eye you want by brain training as long as the eye is visually up to it (you can actually see out of it) As always I am not pushing one method over another just discussing a subject that I am passionate about as many methods work well. Edited January 31, 2012 by timps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayman Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Interesting stuff. I think there are lots of other examples where people re-educate the brain to do things it wasn't born to do. Years ago while working in India people who had suffered foot drop due to nerve paralysis (the foot hangs down when you try to walk and you drag your toes - painful if you don't have shoes) had the good nerve that could extend the foot down transferred to the muscles on top and on the shin. They then re-trained to make the foot pick up rather than extend down and started to walk with the foot in an almost normal position. Amazing what you can teach the brain to do even at a later stage in life. Anyway, as the OP, I'm not advocating anyone does, or changes anything. I'm just curious to understand eye dominance a little more and not all of it makes sense. Take my son for instance (if you do he eats a lot and has expensive hobbies like shooting!) he's strongly left eye dominant but is a fearsome pace bowler (I know, I've stood at the other end) off his right arm. But, he hits the target 22yds away with no trouble. If eye dominance played such an effect that shouldn't happen - but his brain and muscles know how to put the whole package together to put the ball in the right place. He also shoots off his right shoulder and changes between both eyes and one eye open (the right open of course). However, if he's game shooting he keeps both eyes open and others comment on him being a very good shot. So when you start to put the bits together it seems that if you can get the attention to the right place i.e. the target, eye dominance should have little effect. That's the reason I tried the original exercise of closing my right eye, mounting the gun as usual on the right shoulder, and then opening the right eye to see where the gun was actually pointing. It should be no surprise that it was pointing at the target. However, it was also really clear that if I let the left eye glance at the barrel (with right eye closed) I moved the gun to try and get the barrel and left eye lined up - which of course, would mean I'm now way off target (still with me). So what's the point - well it's just one of interest. If you can get all of the attention on the target then eye dominance should not matter so much. But, that's VERY difficult with a long length of black tube stuck in front of your nose. As said before, out of curiosity I'm going to try shooting right eye closed on a few targets. I already know it won't be easy as the gun looks to be pointing in the wrong place, but like bowling and throwing I'm sure that if you put enough trust in the rest of the body and stare at the target, it will be on target - alternatively I'll end up shooting myself! As said, not asking, advocating or expecting anyone to change --- just curiosity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chard Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I think lobbing a cricket ball at a stationary set of stumps is a bit different to trying to get shot onto clays or birds flying at different speeds, distances, directions and angles though I think a blind man could hit a set of stumps if you told him where he's missed a few times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayman Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Chard, I'll make you a bet. You start running in any direction and he'll lob a cricket ball at your head - if he misses I'll pay Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I'm just curious to understand eye dominance a little more and not all of it makes sense. Take my son for instance (if you do he eats a lot and has expensive hobbies like shooting!) he's strongly left eye dominant but is a fearsome pace bowler (I know, I've stood at the other end) off his right arm. But, he hits the target 22yds away with no trouble. If eye dominance played such an effect that shouldn't happen - but his brain and muscles know how to put the whole package together to put the ball in the right place. According to the paper I linked above. In cricket,only 50% of the players are right dominant, the other 50% are cross dominant (right or left contra lateral). This may be because bowlers lead with their left eye and specialist batsmen aim with their right. So it is a known phenomenon in cricket and maybe why there are not a plethora of all rounders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chard Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Chard, I'll make you a bet. You start running in any direction and he'll lob a cricket ball at your head - if he misses I'll pay Chris I'll wear a tin hat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayman Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 According to the paper I linked above. So it is a known phenomenon in cricket and maybe why there are not a plethora of all rounders. Timps, interesting paper but they start out with a curious supposition i.e. clay shooting is an aiming sport. The one thing I've heard coaches tell people time and time again is, "don't aim". Of course, if you are going to send an object from a-b to hit a target then you have to predict where it needs to be, and I think most folk would call that aiming. If so, then all ball sports and all shooting sports are the same and I don't think I've ever heard of anyone discussing keeping one eye closed playing squash, table tennis, golf or volleyball. But it could be that folks just don't think about it. Just a thought. I posted the Benelli trick shooting video earlier. Whether the guy is right or left eye dominant, shooting from behind his back or over his head says that he knows where the gun is pointing in relation to the target without looking along the barrel. It also means he is only looking at the target. Now I know he's shot a few more carts than most of us but it suggests that the dominant eye doesn't need to be in line with the gun, or with the thing that hits the ball in other sports. There's obviously more to this than meets the eye but, if it was at all possible, a good test would be to be able to shoot at clays without being able to see the gun and see what effect dominance really has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayman Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I'll wear a tin hat He's 21, 6', about 15 stone and works out ......... you might need a bigger helmet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Just a thought. I posted the Benelli trick shooting video earlier. Whether the guy is right or left eye dominant, shooting from behind his back or over his head says that he knows where the gun is pointing in relation to the target without looking along the barrel. It also means he is only looking at the target. Now I know he's shot a few more carts than most of us but it suggests that the dominant eye doesn't need to be in line with the gun, or with the thing that hits the ball in other sports. There's obviously more to this than meets the eye but, if it was at all possible, a good test would be to be able to shoot at clays without being able to see the gun and see what effect dominance really has. I know a guy who can shoot skeet from the hip but not the left shoulder! Seen him shoot a 28 gauge with a single hand like a pistol but still cant shoot from the left shoulder.......... Eye dominance is what he says stops him shooting from the left shoulder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) WVAM, I don’t agree with everything written in the paper but I find it an interesting read with some valid points. You have to understand the author is not a clay pigeon shooter so does not understand the sport as you or I would and starts from the premise that tennis and clay pigeon shooting are true aiming sports, (I actually do both) when you read his paper he does surmise The unusually high incidence of left dominance in this group suggests that clayshooting may not be an entirely aiming sport and, in fact, observation confirms that before the shotgun is brought to the aiming position, the clay has to be located. Once the speed, direction and distance have been assessed, the gun is brought to the shoulder, aimed and the shot released. It appears then that a tendency to left eye dominance is not a disadvantage in clay shooting as it might be in rifle shooting. So his results and conclusions seem to educate him that it is not a true aiming sport. The thing you have to realise is cross dominance does not stop you from hitting every target but it will cost you targets, you can adjust and learn the sight picture but it over complicates your shooting and it might take you a few more shots to find the target. The only reason why it is an issue is if you want to progress in the sport, I can shoot left handed as that’s what I used to do many years ago, 2 weeks ago I shot 2 stands at MCSC left handed and hit them all, but ask me to shoot 100 sporting left handed and I would not fair at all well. Trick shooting is easy on targets that are easy, or you have shot a 1000 times before, try shooting from the hip at the British open. I have on the practice stands at MCSC shouted pull, mounted my gun and looked away at a friend pulled the trigger and hit the target. Was this an awesome feet of shooting or the fact the clay hangs in the air at the same place close in to the shooter for the last 5 years so a simple count 123 bang will do the job. If the Benelli trick shooter can get 85+ at the British open doing that then I would be impressed. The eye dominance issue is about progression in your shooting, if you want to progress you have to deal with it in some way or you will be losing too many clays, you will not score zero but you will never reach your full potential if you don’t. Edit to add : he does conclude that tennis is not an aiming sport,so binocular vision is more important than dominance as the aiming is done by body position and racket angle. Golf is not either, however when putting there are articles written about that as it does become an issue when putting, as I don’t play golf I cannot remember the full extent of it. Edited February 1, 2012 by timps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayman Posted February 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 The eye dominance issue is about progression in your shooting, if you want to progress you have to deal with it in some way or you will be losing too many clays, you will not score zero but you will never reach your full potential if you don’t. Timps, absolutely agree and eye dominance needs to be sorted out as one of the steps in getting to one's full potential. I suppose it's just a question of how dominant it should be when folks are trying to improve their shooting. As said before, this is more curiosity and I suspect some other folks are bored with the posts. I think it is also the case that even if you are strongly dominant in one eye it doesn't rule the shooting game. A couple of examples. 1. At one of our local grounds we had a target as follows: Started about 50 yds out coming virtually straight towards you. The trap was a few feet above the shooter and the clay landed about 10 yds out and 10 feet below foot level (you are standing on higher ground). The setting was a slim corridor between pine trees. I'm right eye dominant and shoot off the right. This should be an easy target as everything is in line. First attempts ~ 50%. Close the left eye, rifle the shot, just let the clay reach the bead and bingo - 100% any time we shot the stand. Which suggests the left eye is picking up on something and distracting the right even though the dominance is in the right. In fact the technique worked so well that when we saw anyone struggling we'd just tell them how to shoot it and it worked, even for SbS's 2. Last weekend I borrowed a Beretta as I'm thinking of having a change from the Browning. This one had a small (1cm long) but very bright red bead at the front. As soon as I shouldered the gun it felt like I had double vision and I really had to concentrate on not being distracted by the bead, but both eyes were giving me a picture of the bead. Anyway, shot a stand (one high looper and a right to left batu on report). Hit the first 10 and then went on to pairs. Hit first pair, missed second as I was thinking about both clays at the same time instead of one at a time, then hit the second pair. But, I really had to get the bead out of the sight picture i.e. stare at the clay. So even when folks know which eye is dominant, there's still plenty out their to trick your eyes. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abc Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I'm cross eyed and shoot off the right shoulder with my right eye shut. Works wonders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landyboy Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 just going off tangent a bit, im right handed at shooting, tennis throwing bowling kicking etc but play golf left handed with a 9 handicap and bat left handed at cricket and not too badly ! has this got anything to do with eye domination or am i just special Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Ambidextrous? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landyboy Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 doubt it ! i cant play golf or bat right handed bowl left handed for toffee ! can play tennis or badminton left handed ok though ! can catch a ball with both hands equally as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Odd I am very left eye dom, everything RH and RFooted except shooting now and eating (cutlery) missus was LH as a baby but it was beaten out of her at school...... Oddly right eye dom, better pistol shot than me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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