Spara Dritto Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) I've just had an extremely interesting chat with a very nice chap at a local armoury with regards to barrel length and how much effect it has. He said that the lead you give each bird is identical no matter what length of barrel you have, although with longer barrels it feels like less lead because you don't need as much barrel speed to get from one point to another. He said that if you have a 32" barrel and you picture the ark that the barrel creates as you swing from your holding point to the kill point; it needs less rotational speed compared to a shorter barrel e.g. 30 to get from one point to another. I guess it's like wheels or a cog; a small wheel will have to rotate far quicker than a larger wheel to create the same speed/distance. This is why it looks like pros move their 32" barrel so slow, It's because they have more time to get through the target as there is less barrel speed/rotation needed. Also, extended chokes make no difference and it's still a 30" barrel, this is because the bead is still in the same place so it will still appear to be the same speed as a 30 even if the total length of the barrel is 32" with the extended chokes. It has finally dawned on me that the reason the lead with my 28” semi auto appears to be far less and in fact has accounted for so many misses in front is because I'm use to a slightly shorter 30" over under. What are your thoughts on this subject? Edited February 11, 2012 by Spara Dritto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 Why would the position of the bead make any difference as you should be looking at the target the bead can be a distraction I prefer not having a bead at all. Personnelly I thing the forward weight makes more difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangerous Brian Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 If you think of rotational speed as degrees per second rather than inches/ feet etc then the speed you move the barrels is the same. I have read a lot of advice that suggests you should slow down when using longer barrels but I think that this is more likely due to the balance issue already mentioned above. The more momentum (moving weight up front)you have the better your swing will be and the less likely you are to stop the gun as you think of pulling the trigger. I use a mixture of 28 and 30 inch barrels and miss just as many with either one. Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spara Dritto Posted February 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 Thanks for your replys. Keep them comming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P~MX Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 what's a bead, there's a white one my gun but I'll honestly say I've never saw it while i'm shooting ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdSolomons Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) The only difference it makes is to the handling, and that in turn depends on the choice of method shot. The reason re boys banging in high 90s look so steady is because they have put a lot of time and effort into choosing the correct pickup and hold points and cutting out any unnecessary movement in their routine, not the lenth of tube they use! Edited February 10, 2012 by EdSolomons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Kelly Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 Surely the muzzle is going to move faster and further on a longer barrelled gun than a shorter barrelled one? The pivot point is somewhere near the butt, so the further away from that point the barrel is the further (and faster) it needs to travel for the same angle of movement. Purely academically of course! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Surely the muzzle is going to move faster and further on a longer barrelled gun than a shorter barrelled one? The pivot point is somewhere near the butt, so the further away from that point the barrel is the further (and faster) it needs to travel for the same angle of movement. Purely academically of course! Yep... mathematically correct, also, the change of angle will be the same regardless of how long the barrel is, if the clay is moving from point a to point b, the barrel and therefore the lead will have to change from point a to point b. From the pivot's point of view, the amount of movement will be the same i.e. if the arc is 45 deg then it will be completely irellevant if the barrels are 10" or 50" they will still need to move 45 degrees and the barrels will have to track the target at the same speed i.e. degrees/sec or whatever units you use. Soooo.. I would say what your armourer has told is mathematically incorrect! You may perceive a difference but this will be more to do with mass (i.e. you are moving something with greater mass with longer barrels) than length Edit to say that I think I know what he is possible getting confused with... The longer the distance from the pivot oint to the end of the obect then the furher the end will travel in relation to movement at the pivot. So if we take a wheel for example.. If we have a wheel with a diameter of 100 cm the circumference will be 100 x Pi (3.142) = 314.2 cm. So if the pivot turns half a revolution, the wheel whill travel 157.1cm. If we take the same equasion with a wheel of 1000 cm then the resulting distance traveled will be 3,142 cm, however, when it comes to shooting clays we are interested in angular change, not distance, which will be constant no matter what the barrel length. So, your armourer is technically correct in what he says but that theory cannot be applied to the circumstances surrounding shooting clays. Edited February 10, 2012 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAsh Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 The more the mass the higher the presure will be to move it, but also the hared to make it change direction or speed So you should get a smoother swing with a heavy gun, If you shoot when say a clay is dropping past it's prime then it will be harder to respond to that change than with a lighter gun Barrel length does not really come into it apart from a obviouse chunk of extra weight at the end Anyway thats my take and I still miss them all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
station Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 Yep... mathematically correct, also, the change of angle will be the same regardless of how long the barrel is, if the clay is moving from point a to point b, the barrel and therefore the lead will have to change from point a to point b. From the pivot's point of view, the amount of movement will be the same i.e. if the arc is 45 deg then it will be completely irellevant if the barrels are 10" or 50" they will still need to move 45 degrees and the barrels will have to track the target at the same speed i.e. degrees/sec or whatever units you use. Soooo.. I would say what your armourer has told is mathematically incorrect! You may perceive a difference but this will be more to do with mass (i.e. you are moving something with greater mass with longer barrels) than length Edit to say that I think I know what he is possible getting confused with... The longer the distance from the pivot oint to the end of the obect then the furher the end will travel in relation to movement at the pivot. So if we take a wheel for example.. If we have a wheel with a diameter of 100 cm the circumference will be 100 x Pi (3.142) = 314.2 cm. So if the pivot turns half a revolution, the wheel whill travel 157.1cm. If we take the same equasion with a wheel of 1000 cm then the resulting distance traveled will be 3,142 cm, however, when it comes to shooting clays we are interested in angular change, not distance, which will be constant no matter what the barrel length. So, your armourer is technically correct in what he says but that theory cannot be applied to the circumstances surrounding shooting clays. My wife agrees - far too clever for me Keep'em coming Vipa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kody Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 if your looking at the bead then your using it like a rifle look at the bird there is a saying that goes look at his head and it will be dead dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 Sounds like the armourer is confused Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spara Dritto Posted February 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) Yep... mathematically correct, also, the change of angle will be the same regardless of how long the barrel is, if the clay is moving from point a to point b, the barrel and therefore the lead will have to change from point a to point b. From the pivot's point of view, the amount of movement will be the same i.e. if the arc is 45 deg then it will be completely irellevant if the barrels are 10" or 50" they will still need to move 45 degrees and the barrels will have to track the target at the same speed i.e. degrees/sec or whatever units you use. Soooo.. I would say what your armourer has told is mathematically incorrect! You may perceive a difference but this will be more to do with mass (i.e. you are moving something with greater mass with longer barrels) than length Edit to say that I think I know what he is possible getting confused with... The longer the distance from the pivot oint to the end of the obect then the furher the end will travel in relation to movement at the pivot. So if we take a wheel for example.. If we have a wheel with a diameter of 100 cm the circumference will be 100 x Pi (3.142) = 314.2 cm. So if the pivot turns half a revolution, the wheel whill travel 157.1cm. If we take the same equasion with a wheel of 1000 cm then the resulting distance traveled will be 3,142 cm, however, when it comes to shooting clays we are interested in angular change, not distance, which will be constant no matter what the barrel length. So, your armourer is technically correct in what he says but that theory cannot be applied to the circumstances surrounding shooting clays. Wow, this is what I love about this forum. You have so many people with all these differend skills! Your answer is awsome, its a shame I'm not smart enough to understand all of it! Never the less I got the gist of it! Thanks very much for your answer and your time in replying! Edited February 11, 2012 by Spara Dritto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Kelly Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Edit to say that I think I know what he is possible getting confused with... The longer the distance from the pivot oint to the end of the obect then the furher the end will travel in relation to movement at the pivot. So if we take a wheel for example.. If we have a wheel with a diameter of 100 cm the circumference will be 100 x Pi (3.142) = 314.2 cm. So if the pivot turns half a revolution, the wheel whill travel 157.1cm. If we take the same equasion with a wheel of 1000 cm then the resulting distance traveled will be 3,142 cm, however, when it comes to shooting clays we are interested in angular change, not distance, which will be constant no matter what the barrel length. So, your armourer is technically correct in what he says but that theory cannot be applied to the circumstances surrounding shooting clays. That doesn't make much sense really as it proves that the muzzle has to travel faster on a longer barrelled gun than a shorter barrelled gun, as I said earlier, because it's travelling further for the same angle of movement. The armourer is just wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 I have a 682 with 28 and 32 inch barrels as said the 28s are more reactive and more instinctive to shoot. The 32s are very smooth but take alot of effort to get swinging are changing direction is difficult it struggle with them on loopers but they are great for long crossers. I experimented for a year with I shoot the same stands 25 times with each my average for the year was .3% better with the 28s. Scientific not really but hey I used the same chokes in both etc same cartridges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) That doesn't make much sense really as it proves that the muzzle has to travel faster on a longer barrelled gun than a shorter barrelled gun, as I said earlier, because it's travelling further for the same angle of movement. The armourer is just wrong! Yep, you are right... The armourer is applying the effect of wheel size on a bike/car etc. to shooting clays, which will not work. If you have 2 bikes the on which the wheels on one are twice the of diameter of the other then for each full revolution, the one with the larger wheels will travel twice as far, or if covering the same distance in the same time, will rotate twice as fast. The muzzle will travel farther and faster on a long barrelled gun in realation to the angular movement at the pivot, so this is true if we are discussing converting the angular movement into straight line distance and speed but in this case we are not. irrespective of how long the barrels are the pivot will have to make the same degree of rotation to track the same clay, the pivot will also have to maintain the same rotational speed irrespective of length. Let's say (to keep the numbers easy)the clay is travelling from point a to point b which is 100 feet and it takes 10 seconds to make that journey, let us also assume that from the position of the shooter that is 1 quarter of a full revolution so 90 degrees... the shooter will have to track that arc in 10 seconds to keep up with the clay so he will have to rotate at 90deg / 10 sec so 9 degrees a second. Now.... if we bring barrel length into the equasion... using the same numbers as above We have to take the whole length of the gun into account, not just the barres so with 28" barrels, let's say the total length is 40" and with 32" barrels the total length is 44", so the circumference of the arcs (circles) created by the swing of the guns in a full turn would be 251.36" and 276.5" respectively (2 x radius x pi) so, if the shooter is having to move 90 degrees (i.e. 1 quarter turn) to track the clay then the muzzle of the shorter gun will travel 62.84" and the muzzle of the longer barrels will travel 69.13". the speed of swing with both guns will be the same, i.e. it will take 10 seconds, that means that the muzzle of the longer gun is having to cover a greater straight line distance in the same time so from a speed point of view the muzzle of the shorter gun will be moving at .52 feet per second, the muzzle of the longer gun will be travelling at 0.58 feet per second BUT This has asolutely no impact on the shooter as all he is concerned with is doing that quarter turn in 10 seconds. Let's look at it backwards with an extreme example using the Armourers theory... Let's say gun 1 is the 40" on in the above example and gun 2 is 400". The muzzles of the 400" gun in our example would be traveling at 10 times the speed of the shorter. So... according to the Armourer, the shooter will be able to swing the barrels of the gun slower to track the clay... in this extreme case, 10 times slower to match the same muzzle speed of the shorter gun. If he did that however, it would take him 10 times longer to do that quarter turn but the clay dosn't know that, it's going to go at exactly the same speed and complete it's journey in the same 10 seconds... in other words, by the time the clay had done it's 100 ft and landed on the ground, the long barreled gun would only be one tenth of the way through it's swing, i.e. 9 degrees.. so it just doesn't work. In conclusion, we can see that straight line speed at the muzzle of a gun during a swing is a product of the overall length of the gun but this has no effect on the rotational speed at the pivot (the shooter.) So.... the Armourer is wrong! Hope that made sense! Edited February 11, 2012 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 It has finally dawned on me that the reason the lead with my 28” semi auto appears to be far less and in fact has accounted for so many misses in front is because I'm use to a slightly shorter 30" over under. What are your thoughts on this subject? My thoughts are that if you'd actually used your semi auto more than once you might not be missing so many in front. http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=196368&view=findpost&p=1677911 It's unlikely anything to do with barrel length, and more to do with the fact that you made that assumption when you were shooting a new gun for the first, and only time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 I've just had an extremely interesting chat with a very nice chap at a local armoury with regards to barrel length and how much effect it has. He said that the lead you give each bird is identical no matter what length of barrel you have, although with longer barrels it feels like less lead because you don't need as much barrel speed to get from one point to another. He said that if you have a 32" barrel and you picture the ark that the barrel creates as you swing from your holding point to the kill point; it needs less rotational speed compared to a shorter barrel e.g. 30 to get from one point to another. I guess it's like wheels or a cog; a small wheel will have to rotate far quicker than a larger wheel to create the same speed/distance. This is why it looks like pros move their 32" barrel so slow, It's because they have more time to get through the target as there is less barrel speed/rotation needed. Also, extended chokes make no difference and it's still a 30" barrel, this is because the bead is still in the same place so it will still appear to be the same speed as a 30 even if the total length of the barrel is 32" with the extended chokes. It has finally dawned on me that the reason the lead with my 28” semi auto appears to be far less and in fact has accounted for so many misses in front is because I'm use to a slightly shorter 30" over under. What are your thoughts on this subject? dont want to rain on your parade, but dependent on shooting styles, and gun preference, its all just gibberish. most decent or top shooters are in front of the bird before they know it. not even doing the "swing through" method of shooting. so the maintained lead and pull away method is just a style, extended chokes do make no difference. barrel length is preference, i prefer short sub 28" guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 Just re-read my post above and there is an error in the first paragraph.. If the larger wheel travelled the same distance in the same time it would rotate HALF as fast, not twice as fast... what I should have said is that any point on the outside edge of the larger wheel would be travelling twice as fast as the smaller during one full rotation if those full rotations were performed in the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spara Dritto Posted February 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) dont want to rain on your parade, but dependent on shooting styles, and gun preference, its all just gibberish. most decent or top shooters are in front of the bird before they know it. not even doing the "swing through" method of shooting. so the maintained lead and pull away method is just a style, extended chokes do make no difference. barrel length is preference, i prefer short sub 28" guns. You’re not raining on my parade at all, you've got a very valid point. I welcome comments as I find barrel length a really interesting topic. I want people to correct it and give good explanations on the subject - which there has been. Edited February 12, 2012 by Spara Dritto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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