kyska Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 many thanks for your help, Yes i have on my FAC my CZ.243, sako .22 rimfire, and a condition to borrow my shooting buddies .17hmr. about to delve into wikipedia regarding ballistic coefficient, If i am not back in an hour bring me a coffee HA HA How does appear on your FAC? Sorry to go on a tangent, but I'm intruiged for my own purpose...do you both have the same gun on both tickets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 so what is this good reason you speak of ? Neil. I suspect this is going to equate to posts #5 and 6. The answer will be a load of waffle disguising the fact that the answer is unknown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonna Shoot a Wabbit Posted March 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 How does appear on your FAC? Sorry to go on a tangent, but I'm intruiged for my own purpose...do you both have the same gun on both tickets? Yes the one rifle is on both of our FAC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonna Shoot a Wabbit Posted March 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Whack ballistic coefficient into Wikipedia and stop reading when you've had enough. It's good clear and well written but so was Kent's and that's all you really need to know; just depends on your level of interest. Ok bear with me, So a ballistic coefficient range of 0.12 to just over 1.0 relates to how well a given bullet weight retains it velocity/ftlbs over distance? The same given bullet weight but with differing b.c. at either end of the range will have differing velocities/ftlbs over distance and thus differing trajectory. A bullet weight of say 75grain with b.c. of 0.12 will lose velocity/ftlbs quicker than the same 75grain bullet with a b.c. of 1.0 giving the same 75grain bullet with b.c. of 1.0 better retained velocity/ftlbs over distance and therefor flatter trajectory? please say i am getting there as studying inverse proportionality, and hyperbolic co-ordinates are going to take more than coffee to sustain me........ where did i put the valium, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 I suspect this is going to equate to posts #5 and 6. The answer will be a load of waffle disguising the fact that the answer is unknown. Its simple its not a full on fox caliber and its not suitable for proper bunny bashing. Sort of jack of all trades master of none. Yes if you want to pootle about and shoot a few bunnies and maybe the odd fox on foot then it fits the bill. On the other hand if you have a fair few bunnies to go at then its not the tool for the job. Makes me laugh how blinkered a few on here are to them as if you can't shoot numbers with an hmr or .22lr and need to go back to ballistics as something to occupy time its a pure sign you need to get out more and shoot more. You can always get better in theory but then where do you stop certainly I'll shoot the odd bunny with the .243 but not an evenings worth. t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Yep, you've got it. Unless it's your intention to shoot the head off a pin at 1000 yards after first passing the bullet through the eye of a needle at 500 yards, it's all you need to know. Except, that whereas bullet manufacturers don't lie about their products' capabilities, they have been known to manipulate the figures somewhat. Consequently, as with ballistics tables, although the information is useful and can save time and money, ultimately it needs to be checked out in the field. Also, perhaps, a little understanding of Sectional Density (SD) can be useful with regard to the Hornet. Kent has already mentioned heavier bullets but was highlighting the flat shooting/windage - external ballistics. The greater SD of the heavier bullets comes in to play when it arrives at the target - terminal ballistics. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonna Shoot a Wabbit Posted March 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Great stuff, i can say with some certainty that it is about as technical as i am likely to want to get regarding ballistics. However i certainly feel i have more knowledge to base a choice of bullet on now than yesterday. Thanks for all your positive input, lots of information to think about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Rather than replying in the manner of your username you could also accept some don't see a center fire as necessary for bunnies. Apart from the agro of having to reload for a rabbit gun there is a good reason they aren't a popular choice And the relivence is Come on tell us all how long you owned c/f rifles and how many calibres? Do you actually re-load even? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Its simple its not a full on fox caliber and its not suitable for proper bunny bashing. Sort of jack of all trades master of none. Yes if you want to pootle about and shoot a few bunnies and maybe the odd fox on foot then it fits the bill. On the other hand if you have a fair few bunnies to go at then its not the tool for the job. Makes me laugh how blinkered a few on here are to them as if you can't shoot numbers with an hmr or .22lr and need to go back to ballistics as something to occupy time its a pure sign you need to get out more and shoot more. You can always get better in theory but then where do you stop certainly I'll shoot the odd bunny with the .243 but not an evenings worth. t You realy dont have a clue or any experiance of what you state blindly as if its fact. Your talking about a calibre with a heck of a deal of history behind it (1930- present day) that has seen off many a faster flashier newcommer. balistcally its better than the HMR thats just a fact - but to understand what it is and what makes it so special you need to shoot the thing in the field and forget about all the numpies who have never actually owned one but seem to believe they are authorities on what it wont do and why its no good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Yep, you've got it. Unless it's your intention to shoot the head off a pin at 1000 yards after first passing the bullet through the eye of a needle at 500 yards, it's all you need to know. Except, that whereas bullet manufacturers don't lie about their products' capabilities, they have been known to manipulate the figures somewhat. Consequently, as with ballistics tables, although the information is useful and can save time and money, ultimately it needs to be checked out in the field. Also, perhaps, a little understanding of Sectional Density (SD) can be useful with regard to the Hornet. Kent has already mentioned heavier bullets but was highlighting the flat shooting/windage - external ballistics. The greater SD of the heavier bullets comes in to play when it arrives at the target - terminal ballistics. Cheers Oh very true however i never use SD to reffer to the above or play it much heed as its so glaringly obvious. SD to me means standard deviation (of speed) the Hornet is actually very good at this but needs attention to fill levels and primer balance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 You realy dont have a clue or any experiance of what you state blindly as if its fact. Your talking about a calibre with a heck of a deal of history behind it (1930- present day) that has seen off many a faster flashier newcommer. balistcally its better than the HMR thats just a fact - but to understand what it is and what makes it so special you need to shoot the thing in the field and forget about all the numpies who have never actually owned one but seem to believe they are authorities on what it wont do and why its no good you really don't get it do you in simple language yes of course balistically its better than a HMR but then that is a pretty big compliment to the HMR as its being compared to a centrefire rather than a rimfire. The point is though what purpose is it as people just compare it to a rimfires role which I know plod wouldn't let you have both which probably says a bit but as for seeing off other calibers come on. There are 8 on guntrader in the entire uk one of which is new that just demonstrates what a demand for them there is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 you really don't get it do you in simple language yes of course balistically its better than a HMR but then that is a pretty big compliment to the HMR as its being compared to a centrefire rather than a rimfire. The point is though what purpose is it as people just compare it to a rimfires role which I know plod wouldn't let you have both which probably says a bit but as for seeing off other calibers come on. There are 8 on guntrader in the entire uk one of which is new that just demonstrates what a demand for them there is. Nope it demonstates how many are unwilling to part with them once they have seen the light and actually try one, you read the words but mis the messages meaning. As for seeing off other calibres, do you even know anything of the .22 Bee or the mashburn Bee which was intoduced within a decade of the hornets launch? How the .222 rem failed to see it off. Worthless calibres just cannot last near enough a century and still get chambered into a range of rifles as an off the shelf option. Indeed if we talk .22 wcf its an even longer history Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) Its simple its not a full on fox caliber and its not suitable for proper bunny bashing. Sort of jack of all trades master of none. Yes if you want to pootle about and shoot a few bunnies and maybe the odd fox on foot then it fits the bill. That pretty much sums up why we all have one! When I go out I go for a hobby. I want to shoot a few bunnies and the odd Fox. If I go out Foxing I take the .223 and if I go serious bunny bashing I take the .22lr, but generally I'm just going out for a walk in the countryside to enjoy myself and see what's about. For that the Hornet is the best round I've ever had. Those that know me will tell you I've had quite a few! I agree that when I've been busy and put down a couple of hundred rounds in a week I've got a bit sick of home loading. That doesn't happen every week though so I can deal with it for the added performance the round offers over the HMR. Edited March 7, 2012 by njc110381 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Oh very true however i never use SD to reffer to the above or play it much heed as its so glaringly obvious. SD to me means standard deviation (of speed) the Hornet is actually very good at this but needs attention to fill levels and primer balance Yep, it's unfortunate that the initials relate to both Sectional Density (SD) and Standard Deviation. The advantages of the higher SD may be obvious to someone with extensive experience but there's no harm in giving someone with a little less knowledge of the calibre a nudge in the right direction particularly when they then realise that this can compensate for a lower (note lower - not too low) terminal energy figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 I suspect this is going to equate to posts #5 and 6. The answer will be a load of waffle disguising the fact that the answer is unknown. Yep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta28g Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 If im not mistaken ammo cost is £18-64 for 20 rounds or thereabouts. .17HMR is £10 for 50. .22lr is £3.50 for 50. I have been out bunnybashing and gon through 50-100 rounds a night, now either you have VERY deep pockets and can afford factory ammo or you sit there for hours reloading many,many shells. Either way its expensive, and in my opinion not necerssary. Get a rimfire for bunnies and a .223 .22-250 .243 or something for the foxes. As i found out if you dont have a mainstream caliber things can get very expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grogblossom Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 you really don't get it do you in simple language yes of course balistically its better than a HMR but then that is a pretty big compliment to the HMR as its being compared to a centrefire rather than a rimfire. The point is though what purpose is it as people just compare it to a rimfires role which I know plod wouldn't let you have both which probably says a bit but as for seeing off other calibers come on. There are 8 on guntrader in the entire uk one of which is new that just demonstrates what a demand for them there is. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Ive got both .17 HMR and .22 Hornet took me ages to find me Ornit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 If im not mistaken ammo cost is £18-64 for 20 rounds or thereabouts. .17HMR is £10 for 50. .22lr is £3.50 for 50. I have been out bunnybashing and gon through 50-100 rounds a night, now either you have VERY deep pockets and can afford factory ammo or you sit there for hours reloading many,many shells. Either way its expensive, and in my opinion not necerssary. Get a rimfire for bunnies and a .223 .22-250 .243 or something for the foxes. As i found out if you dont have a mainstream caliber things can get very expensive. Hey it dont suit everyone. Privi Hornet is £46 per 100, most high quality hornet factory is just under £20 per 25 (most c/f being per 20 remember) The OP says he is keen to re-load so once you take that route it is very much the same as the HMR in cost. As regards time most homeloaders enjoy it and i realy can load a few hundred up in the time it takes to drive the 20 miles to the nearest dealer and back It is not however a high volume bunny tool the .22 lr and sub is that and at around £50 per 500 a no brainer. If you want to go out and fire maybee 20-30 rounds off at Crows, rabbit, hare, fox etc. the hornet is non the less a fine choice for all commers. Remember our UK guidelines only recommend .22 Hornet and .17 Rem across small vermin and fox, not to say you cant get bigger or smaller granted it can just be a postcode lottery. In comparisom to the HMR on drop it will hold a 1/2" high or low of POA a good 30 yds further than the same rig in HMR- not earth shattering BUT it will then drop around 4" low at 200yds compared to around 8" in the HMR. Added to this the significant gains in windages that increase with range of corse it is very much what many look for in the HMR but dont find This is not to knock the HMR to many it is the right gun. Though consider the HMR does not realy fill the void between the .22lr and the .243 (the OP has both of these guns) Anything the hornet cannot do the .243 can in spades any thing the .22lr cant at the other end the same tale can be said. One thing you dont need is a HMR and a Hornet though i argued that i did with plod, once you get to grips with the Hornet you honestly dont- neither do you need a WMR or another .22 or .20 c/f if you have the .243" in the cabinet. The Hornet is still very much a mainstream calibre, if your dealer don't stock .22 Hornet factory then he aint much cop and there are a lot of new guns chambered in it. Perhaps you comments as regards mainstream are a little misguided or we have differering ideas on the word "mainstream" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta28g Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 The local dealer here stocks .223 .22-250 .243 .270 .308 i have near a 90 mile round trip to get 6.5 Ammo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholiath Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) With regard to cost i reload 35 and 40 gn v max for £31 for 100 rounds and 40gn sierra soft points for significantly less. Edited March 7, 2012 by nicholiath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 The local dealer here stocks .223 .22-250 .243 .270 .308 i have near a 90 mile round trip to get 6.5 Ammo Strange even more so you new his stock policy. 6.5x 55 is the third most popular deer round acording to BDS membership. And no 30-06 not the best dealer in the nation now is he Do you have any Boar in your parts? Hey thats gunshops, i have a 20 mile each way to my nearest and about 30 to the best on ammo. Another good reason to consider handloading Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta28g Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 No boar near me Im East Norfolk. I know his stock policy because i phoned up and asked if he had any 6.5 and then gave him grief when he suggested i buy 200 and he would order them in! 1) I can only buy 100 2) It would cost the earth He is not the best, but the one i now go to is brilliant and nothings too much trouble! We used to have a local one who specialised in rifles and reloading but he shut down last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 No boar near me Im East Norfolk. I know his stock policy because i phoned up and asked if he had any 6.5 and then gave him grief when he suggested i buy 200 and he would order them in! 1) I can only buy 100 2) It would cost the earth He is not the best, but the one i now go to is brilliant and nothings too much trouble! We used to have a local one who specialised in rifles and reloading but he shut down last year. Thats a poor ammo allowance and a poor service, he should be able to get what you want in smaller quantity with other stuff. Problem is there aint any money in ammo once the importer is done with his bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Hornet ammo is so cheap to make it's daft. A tub of powder lasts for about 600 rounds or so, and using cheap 46gr HPs they're about 10p each. As for the time taken - loading 223 to shoot 1000 yards takes time (lots of time, my other half doesn't realise how lucky she is). Hornet is a doddle. H110 meters amazingly well so you can throw the charge very accurately. Unless you're shooting hundreds and hundreds of rabbits a week, then it's really no bother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) neither do you need a WMR or another .22 or .20 c/f if you have the .243" in the cabinet. That's tripe....like to see you carry 100-150 243 rounds around with you up a hill here when out shooting rabbits - the WMR is the perfect round for rabbit with the "occasional" fox, light, not as obnoxiously noisy as a c/f and cheap to feed, and yes, I have both, WMR can take a fox out to 80 yards and pick away at rabbits reletively cheaply in comparison to a c/f so it fits where the 22LR is out or clout, the 17hmr would be similarly out of energy in my opinion for a fox. A WMR has a different purpose entirely to 243/223 etc. Regards, Gixer Edited March 8, 2012 by gixer1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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