SGC interview

[evo]

You don't.

 

The issue of fees is totally misunderstood. The fee is not for the application, it is for the grant of the certificate. It does not become payable until such time as the police actually grant the certificate. Demanding it up front is unlawful and, to my mind, is bordering on the offence of demand money with menaces (blackmail) which is an offence contained in the Theft Act. It's almost certainly an offence of misconduct in public office too. Parliament has not given the police the power to demand any money until the certificate is granted and tht is when they should send you the bill.

 

J.

the £50 cheque was cashed a month after sending in my application,,my interview was 5 weeks after the cheque had been cashed,thanks for the plus and minus replies but best bet is to just wait for the letter to arrive to see if i am gonna be charged or not thanks again

[JonathanL]

Just so that some of you are clear in your minds, when giving advice and making bold statements, form 101 states:

 

Note to Part A - Question 14

You are not entitled to withhold information about any offence. This includes

motoring offences, convictions in places outside Great Britain, and (by virtue

of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) Order 1975)

convictions which are spent under the 1974 Act. Both a conditional

discharge and an absolute discharge count as convictions for this purpose.

 

Note the wording. Both conditional discharges and absolute discharges count as convictions when filling in fac applications.

 

That is very bad wording; neither count as convictions because they aren't convictions. They are sentences.

 

I can only assume that the form is worded that way in an attempt that people do not misunderstand that they have a conviction. Very badly worded though.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

the £50 cheque was cashed a month after sending in my application,,my interview was 5 weeks after the cheque had been cashed,thanks for the plus and minus replies but best bet is to just wait for the letter to arrive to see if i am gonna be charged or not thanks again

 

From what you have said I don't think you will be charged. They have to prove (I think) that you intentionally didn't provide the information and that is not an easy thing to prove to the relevant criminal standard. If they were going to charge you they would have immediately formally refused your application, one would think.

 

It sounds very much like the firearms enquiry officer trying to justify his existence. He, I thin, knows that he cannot refuse you so is trying to get you to withdraw your application so he has something to record on the files. It's a 'result' from his point of view.

 

As far as the cheque goes; as I said before, they have no authority to demand money up-front. They are a public authroity and any public authority has to be granted the roght by Parliament to demand money from anyone. Parliament has granted them the authority to do so but not at the application stage. The Firearms Act contrains the necessary authority and it says that the fee beco0mes due upon the grant of a certificate - not upon the application for a grant.

 

For a public servant to demand money from someone without having been granted the authority to do so by Parliament is corruption of the highest order - it is no diferent to a police officer demanding that you pay a speeding fine directly to him without the due process of law. It is the way of a Banana Republic and is utterly contemptable.

 

J.

[Davyo]

When i had my visit 2 yrs ago, then aged 47 i was remined by the FLO that i forgot to include an incident when i was 13 yrs old (34 yrs ago). This is how far back they will check.

[JonathanL]

When i had my visit 2 yrs ago, then aged 47 i was remined by the FLO that i forgot to include an incident when i was 13 yrs old (34 yrs ago). This is how far back they will check.

 

Was it a conviction?

 

J.

[BlaserF3]

Davyo just jogged my memory, I forgot I was told off by a Policeman for trying to buy fireworks in 1961 when I was twelve. And he came to the house later on and told my Mam and Dad what I had been up to.

 

The legal age was thirteen then to buy fireworks, I'd honestly forgot about that one

[vulpicide]

Don't mess about phone SACS on Tuesday ask Elspeth to put you on to IAN say Tam told you to phone 01698 885206 all is NOT lost

IT will only cost you a phonecall and cut out the barrack room lawyers.

[MM]

Right, Evo lives wround the corner from me. Will it sove the problem if i go round and vet him for everyone? As it happesn, ive never met him, and he could be a complete loony tube

[hedd-wyn]

Davyo just jogged my memory, I forgot I was told off by a Policeman for trying to buy fireworks in 1961 when I was twelve. And he came to the house later on and told my Mam and Dad what I had been up to.

 

The legal age was thirteen then to buy fireworks, I'd honestly forgot about that one

 

Good point, I received a hefty clout off our local bobby when I was a similar age for not having lights on my bike. He took my details and escorted me home where I received a second clout for bringing shame to the family

 

I know this might sound like a joke, but my details were taken, should I have declared this?

[Davyo]

Was it a conviction?

 

J.

I was with a with a group of kids & another kid gave me a golf club & a ball (unknown to me he had just pinched it).I was stopped about a week later walking to the local park with it over me shoulder when plod pulls up takes the club & says your comming with me.I was done for possesing stolen goods( it was **** as it was bent in the middle)Only time i ever been in trouble.

[Gordon R]

You have to be found guilty of the offence before a conditional discharge can be imposed. A conditional discharge is the sentence following a conviction.

 

JonathanL - I think you need to re-read what I have said in full before quoting half of what I said. You have to be convicted of an offence, before a Conditional Discharge can be imposed.

 

The assult offence should have been delcared but if you didn't remeber it then you have not committed the offence of making a false statement to obtain an SGC

 

That is absolute garbage. Forgetting a conviction is no excuse. The statement is clearly false, whether you remember the offence or not. Forgetting it is mitigation of an offence not a reason to be found not guilty. :no:

Edited April 8, 2012 by Gordon R

[lumpy]

It's all well and good quoting what should and should'nt be acceptable but for lad's who are applying for thier first SGC it does state quite clearly on the application form that the fee should be posted with the completed application form

Edited April 8, 2012 by lumpy

[apache]

By sending a cheque at any other point would be impractical. If you are not granted a certificate you are refunded. The last thing we need is an extra delay when the police write you a letter saying you have successfully been granted your FAC/SGC and then if you send a cheque, we will let it clear and then post out your certificate. If you look at the figures only a tiny percentage are refused so the vast majority of cheques are cashed and kept!

[JonathanL]

Good point, I received a hefty clout off our local bobby when I was a similar age for not having lights on my bike. He took my details and escorted me home where I received a second clout for bringing shame to the family

 

I know this might sound like a joke, but my details were taken, should I have declared this?

 

No! It's not a convition.

 

J.

Edited April 8, 2012 by JonathanL

[hedd-wyn]

No! It's not a convition.

 

J.

 

Thank you, I can now go to bed. I thought you were never going to reply.

 

Good night

 

Hedd

[JonathanL]

JonathanL - I think you need to re-read what I have said in full before quoting half of what I said. You have to be convicted of an offence, before a Conditional Discharge can be imposed.

 

Erm, hang on. You've just quoted a sentence of yours and then replied to it as though it was written by me. What's with that?

 

That is absolute garbage. Forgetting a conviction is no excuse. The statement is clearly false, whether you remember the offence or not. Forgetting it is mitigation of an offence not a reason to be found not guilty. :no:

 

More pointless and childish smilies, I see. They don't make you any more right, you know.

 

Do you speak from a position of actual knowledge or do you just make this **** up because you think it sounds 'about right'?

 

There is an offence for any person to knowingly or recklessly make any false statement to procure a certificate for him self or another. If you forget that you have a conviction (unlikely as that may be) then you have not knowingly made a false statement. I have no idea what the definition of recklessly means. How do you recklessly make a false statement?

 

So, from that it is clear that forgetting that you have a conviction is a perfect reason to be found not guilty.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

It's all well and good quoting what should and should'nt be acceptable but for lad's who are applying for thier first SGC it does state quite clearly on the application form that the fee should be posted with the completed application form

 

Does it?

 

Even if it does, it doesn't make it legal simple because the police tell you to do it.

 

Parliament makes the law in this Country not the police.

 

The relevant part of the Firearms Act says;

 

32 Fee for certificate and exemption from paying it in certain cases.

 

[(1)Subject to this Act, there shall be payable—

(a)on the grant of a firearm certificate a fee of [F1£50];

 

When you post in your form the certificate has not been granted. Therefore, the police cannot demand money from you. To do so is unlawful and corrupt.

 

The fee becomes payable at the point at which the cert is granted.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

By sending a cheque at any other point would be impractical. If you are not granted a certificate you are refunded. The last thing we need is an extra delay when the police write you a letter saying you have successfully been granted your FAC/SGC and then if you send a cheque, we will let it clear and then post out your certificate. If you look at the figures only a tiny percentage are refused so the vast majority of cheques are cashed and kept!

 

That's not our problem. Parliament has said the fee becomes due when the cert is granted. If the police think it's impractical (which it probably is) then they can lobby Parliament in precisely the same way as anyone else who want's the law changed.

 

J.

[evo]

Right, Evo lives wround the corner from me. Will it sove the problem if i go round and vet him for everyone? As it happesn, ive never met him, and he could be a complete loony tube

what do ya mean could be :hmm: you know i,m a complete loon :yes: just ask all my dead family under the patio :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[evo]

That's not our problem. Parliament has said the fee becomes due when the cert is granted. If the police think it's impractical (which it probably is) then they can lobby Parliament in precisely the same way as anyone else who want's the law changed.

 

J.

johnathan thanks for your support mate but its best to leave it bud because some on here are just up for winding ya up mate,,i,ll just wait till the letter or licence(whatever)turns up,,i,m not sweating mate,,i,ve told the truth,, explained it all,,been accused of something i didnt do(speeding)as he will find out,,and to top it off i,ve been left sitting here worrying WHY ME !!!!!!! . i,m as honest as they come mate ,,been shooting since i was 10 yrs old(now a month off 48) and if they think they can take that away from me for making a genuine stupid mistake(sorry forgetful mistake) then so be it ,,,,,at least i will be able to walk out my door with my head held high,,but the ball is in their court,,,just waiting for it to come back,,believe me there are people on here who have done worse but my friend dont bite to them,,,,,,,,,,,,,, cheers evo

[evo]

A conditional discharge is a conviction. So what charge was it?

hi gordon,,i would just like to now pass comment on your reply and would like to now quote fact not fiction,,,,," a discharge is a type of sentence where no punishment is imposed.An absolute discharge is unconditional.the defendant is unpunished and the case is over.in some juristdictions,an absolute discharge means there is no conviction despite a finding that the defendant is guilty.A CONDITIONAL DISCHARGE is a sentence passed by a court whereby the defendent is not punished,provided that they comply with certain conditions.After these conditions are met,the discharge becomes absolute. if the conditions are not met then the defendent is re sentenced , after calling in to the police station today i have been formally told i was not and i quote NOT convicted of common assault .i was conditionally discharged and fulfilled my conditions ,,,so as i said i was NOT convicted of common assault ,i was conditionally discharged which only becomes a conviction if the conditions are broken :yes: FACTquote THE CONDITIONAL DISCHARGE DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A CONVICTION UNLESS THE INDIVIDUAL BREACHES THE CONDITIONAL DISCHARGE AND IS RE SENTENCED , i would like to thank you for you comments but just thought i would tell you FACTS , not what you seem to think is right so it gives me great pleasure in telling you " you are so WRONG "

thankyou mr evo

Edited April 9, 2012 by evo

[poontang]

hi gordon,,i would just like to now pass comment on your reply and would like to now quote fact not fiction,,,,," a discharge is a type of sentence where no punishment is imposed.An absolute discharge is unconditional.the defendant is unpunished and the case is over.in some juristdictions,an absolute discharge means there is no conviction despite a finding that the defendant is guilty.A CONDITIONAL DISCHARGE is a sentence passed by a court whereby the defendent is not punished,provided that they comply with certain conditions.After these conditions are met,the discharge becomes absolute. if the conditions are not met then the defendent is re sentenced , after calling in to the police station today i have been formally told i was not and i quote NOT convicted of common assault .i was conditionally discharged and fulfilled my conditions ,,,so as i said i was NOT convicted of common assault ,i was conditionally discharged which only becomes a conviction if the conditions are broken :yes: FACTquote THE CONDITIONAL DISCHARGE DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A CONVICTION UNLESS THE INDIVIDUAL BREACHES THE CONDITIONAL DISCHARGE AND IS RE SENTENCED , i would like to thank you for you comments but just thought i would tell you FACTS , not what you seem to think is right so it gives me great pleasure in telling you " you are so WRONG "

thankyou mr evo

 

That's all well and good, but the notes on your application clearly state that a conditional discharge is to be counted as a conviction and should be noted as such.

 

I'm not sure why you felt it necessary to clarify the legalities of a conditional discharge with the police, when all your problems are down to the fact that you failed to note your conditional discharge on your application.

 

You're at risk of clouding the issue further. As I said before you'd be well advised to withdraw your application, then re-apply including the conditional discharge.

[webber]

Evo

 

You have received very firm and sound advice.

 

May I suggest that you take the advice, and act quickly, or you risk a conviction and no SGC.

 

Argueing with forum members over legal technicalities is pointless. They have their SGC, you don't.

 

webber

[Gordon R]

JonathaL and Evo - I see both of you have been busy on the web searching out amateur information from the likes of Wikipedia.

 

It seems the Police get their law from Wikipedia as well. :lol:

 

This might assist:-

 

http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/Road_Traffic_Law/Rehabiliation_of_Offenders_Act

[evo]

Evo

 

You have received very firm and sound advice.

 

May I suggest that you take the advice, and act quickly, or you risk a conviction and no SGC.

 

Argueing with forum members over legal technicalities is pointless. They have their SGC, you don't.

 

webber

totally agree webber ,, i was merely pointing out to a member that a conditional discharge is not a conviction,,,thanks anyway so i wont be replying anymore i,ll just wait till i get what i get in the post