WWT Lead Shot Plans

[poontang]

Maybe so, but the issue is that we, as shooters, will be judged on our compliance.

 

David

 

David,

 

Is there an easy way for people to check whether duck has been shot with steel or lead? Or would it mean a post mortem or x-rays?

[al4x]

if you place it near a big magnet you'd find out

[poontang]

if you place it near a big magnet you'd find out

 

Strange you say that.

 

That was my next question.

 

Along with......... Is there any way to test for birds being shot with other non-tox alternatives?

[al4x]

the thing is though not only would you have to trace the person rather than the shoot it came from but also proove the bird hadn't ingested the lead through feeding and also hadn't been pricked at some point by another gun using lead. You can start to see why there haven't been any prosecutions, by and large the shooting community is extremely law abiding and indeed I think most people started using alternatives when the law came in however as with most things that aren't policed and don't make sense the participation has reduced.

[poontang]

the thing is though not only would you have to trace the person rather than the shoot it came from but also proove the bird hadn't ingested the lead through feeding and also hadn't been pricked at some point by another gun using lead. You can start to see why there haven't been any prosecutions, by and large the shooting community is extremely law abiding and indeed I think most people started using alternatives when the law came in however as with most things that aren't policed and don't make sense the participation has reduced.

 

I see what you're saying, and I wouldn't disagree with most of it, but I wasn't looking at it from a prosecution point of view.

 

I was trying to ascertain whether it would be possible for game dealers/butchers to perform a simple test to determine if non-tox shot had been used or whether birds had been shot with lead.

I suspect steel would be easy to test for with some form of magnet, but am not sure about other alternative shot types.

My thinking being that if a dealer could ascertain that lead had been used he could then refuse to take the birds, therefore putting pressure on the shoot to make sure that non-tox was used in duck drives, thereby upping the compliance levels.

 

The thing is, do game dealers know the law regarding non-tox shot, and moreover are they bothered?

[David BASC]

I do not know, off the top of my head, any easy and quick test to check what type of shot a bird has been shot with. Given that a dealer would have to test, possibly hundreds of birds at a time...but I will, of course see if i can find out.

 

To answer one of your other points Al4x - I cannot find any account of someone in the UK coming to any harm by eating game shot with lead. This is being looked at by the LAG of course but frankly, with my 'Human Biologist's ' hat on, I dont expect there to be any evidence for harm not least of all because game makes up such a small part of our diet.

 

I am aware of some cultures, where almost all of their meat is shot with lead, so their dietary exposure is massive, there is evidence of harm to IQ levels and thus certain skills development, but no deaths or severe disability as far as i can see - I stand to be corrected of course.

 

David

[Scully]

You referred to a 'leaked' document,which in turn implies the document was not for general release.Is this the same document in which you claim Mr.Grainger didn't propose anything?For the second time of asking,and in the name of openness and honesty,perhaps you could let us all see,in its entirety,the minutes of the meeting at Rossett Hall?Like I said,I don't mind being wrong.

Regarding J.Harradines statement,D.Pain is proving elusive to contact at the moment,but I'll persevere.

[David BASC]

As I have repeatedly said, BASC policy is set by the elected Council of elected members, and not by an unelected committee or individual committee member.

 

If you want to put your own spin on what Mr Guard said at the meeting a few years ago, that’s up to you, but I have made it clear above what he said in context, he was simply stating how bans can be implemented.

 

For a current example look at the old style filament light bulbs that are being phased out in basically the same three step process – and no BASC nor Mr Guard are behind this!

 

As I have also said BASC policy on lead shot is what it is , and is stated on the BASC web site; end of story, so by demonstration and fact you are wrong if you think Mr Guard was making any form of proposal that BASC council accepted.

 

If you want to turn your back on what’s happening now so you can keep looking backwards at what happened in 2010, that’s up to you ;but we are going to look forwards and face the current threats.

 

David

[wymberley]

No harm in someone looking backwards - it can stop anything coming up from behind and biting you on the backside. Also, looking back you see history which has a nasty habbit of repeating itself. If you don't wish to look backwards, it's no good mentioning the BASC stood alone on a couple of occasions when we (shooters) came under threat, that's by the bye. Unfortunately, neither do you get chance to review one's own performance and see where it could be improved and as a consequence, a failure to do so and seemingly accept no criticism whatsoever about that performance, it's pretty much assured that history WILL repeat itself.

Edited May 12, 2012 by wymberley

[Scully]

As I have repeatedly said, BASC policy is set by the elected Council of elected members, and not by an unelected committee or individual committee member.

 

If you want to put your own spin on what Mr Guard said at the meeting a few years ago, that’s up to you, but I have made it clear above what he said in context, he was simply stating how bans can be implemented.

 

For a current example look at the old style filament light bulbs that are being phased out in basically the same three step process – and no BASC nor Mr Guard are behind this!

 

As I have also said BASC policy on lead shot is what it is , and is stated on the BASC web site; end of story, so by demonstration and fact you are wrong if you think Mr Guard was making any form of proposal that BASC council accepted.

 

If you want to turn your back on what’s happening now so you can keep looking backwards at what happened in 2010, that’s up to you ;but we are going to look forwards and face the current threats.

 

David

We can learn much from looking backwards David,as Wymberley has pointed out,and it's obviously something BASC would prefer we didn't dwell upon.Your consistent failure to pass on the relevant information I have requested can only leave me with the conclusion that BASC isn't in fact acting with openness nor honesty,and has indeed something to hide.

I am certainly not looking backwards David,to suggest so is simply an attempt to divert me from an extrememly important issue.It is an issue that BASC obviously feels could be detrimental to it's well being,hence your failure to publish what I have requested.It is by looking backward that we can determine BASC's role in all this.

No confirmation of J.Harradines comment;no minutes from Rossett Hall?With all the resources of the 'voice of shooting' behind you,I would have thought it would have been a relatively simple task to post the minutes etc;but you wont do it...why?Smell isn't getting any better David.

[David BASC]

I agree 100% that of course we learn by experience, and its important we do accept that we can learn this way so the next time we face the same or similar situation we are better prepared.

 

But dwelling on something that one member of an advisory committee said in an advisory committee meeting two years ago, which had no impact on BASC policy what so ever is not going to help in any way to face the current issues that we face.

 

Mr Guard said what he said, so what?

 

Dr H has said that different shot types work, and has published reports on the different shot types as I have posted a link to above for example, the simple caveat is that all shot types have limitations. I suspect Dr P has simply put her own spin on this.

 

Constructive criticism is always welcome of course, no one should shy away from that, I certainly don’t.

 

No I will not post on here confidential committee minutes, I have no authority to do so. Generally speaking minutes of meetings are confidential, that’s the norm, and does not mean anyone has anything to hide.

 

On any given subject there will always be a range of views that may be expressed in meetings and indeed outside of meetings. But I say again, the important thing is the policy and strategic direction that BASC follows , and that is set be the elected members of BASC, and published in our magazines and on our web site.

 

As some will have seen we have given the WWT a blasing in this weeks ST, its also on the ST web site, lets see what they say next!

 

David

[sitsinhedges]

The only people who have 'blown it' are stupid people who shoot wild fowl with lead (and then sell it on).

 

The other 98% of people, most of who shoot no wildfowl at all haven't done anything wrong.

 

Sledgehammer to crack a nut springs to mind and it does nothing to justify banning lead for the rest of us.

[wymberley]

The only people who have 'blown it' are stupid people who shoot wild fowl with lead (and then sell it on).

 

The other 98% of people, most of who shoot no wildfowl at all haven't done anything wrong.

 

Sledgehammer to crack a nut springs to mind and it does nothing to justify banning lead for the rest of us.

 

Bons mots.

[poontang]

 

 

 

 

As some will have seen we have given the WWT a blasing in this weeks ST, its also on the ST web site, lets see what they say next!

 

David

 

Here you go.

 

A letter sent to the ST editor from WWT.

 

 

http://www.wwt.org.uk/uploads/documents/1335525416_LettertoShootingTimesApril2012doc2.pdf

[Scully]

Why are committe meeting minutes confidential David?If,indeed you have no authority to post them(strange how this wasn't mentioned from the outset,but you have instead gone from an initial strong denial to a 'so what?' regarding what Mr G did or didn't propose!)perhaps you could let me know who does.

Surely the membership should have a right to see them.After all,we pay you to act on our behalf....don't we?It certainly isn't up to BASC to decide what is best for us,is it?Without consultation?

[mudpatten]

The above copy of the WWT`s policy on the removal of lead shot from circulation clearly shows those of us who are thinking logically about this,exactly who our enemy is.

 

It is,in this instance,the WWT.

 

And yet some of us,like rabid dogs mindlessly biting at their own backsides can think of nothing more constructive to do than savage BASC, fueled by warped arguments and driven by some twisted conspiracy theory.

 

It is difficult, for instance, to understand what part in the WWT`s strategy is going to be positively affected by the shooting lobby by entering into a mindless and irrelevant debate about whether you can use ntx in a damascus barreled gun.

 

Or an equally pointless debate about who said what to whom over two years ago. Who cares? Only a point scoring anal retentive could honestly think that the answer to this question is likely to affect WWT policy.

 

The real question, the one ignored by the bascerbators is "How do we combat the wwt`s allegations?".

 

Gents, if you really want to exercise your minds, give us a workable strategy that involves more than stamping ones feet whilst inserting fingers in one`s ears and shouting "NO" repeatedly.

 

You criticise BASC freely enough. Now lets hear YOUR strategy, and remember, all your toys must remain IN the pram.

[sitsinhedges]

The above copy of the WWT`s policy on the removal of lead shot from circulation clearly shows those of us who are thinking logically about this,exactly who our enemy is.

 

It is,in this instance,the WWT.

 

And yet some of us,like rabid dogs mindlessly biting at their own backsides can think of nothing more constructive to do than savage BASC, fueled by warped arguments and driven by some twisted conspiracy theory.

 

It is difficult, for instance, to understand what part in the WWT`s strategy is going to be positively affected by the shooting lobby by entering into a mindless and irrelevant debate about whether you can use ntx in a damascus barreled gun.

 

Or an equally pointless debate about who said what to whom over two years ago. Who cares? Only a point scoring anal retentive could honestly think that the answer to this question is likely to affect WWT policy.

 

The real question, the one ignored by the bascerbators is "How do we combat the wwt`s allegations?".

 

Gents, if you really want to exercise your minds, give us a workable strategy that involves more than stamping ones feet whilst inserting fingers in one`s ears and shouting "NO" repeatedly.

 

You criticise BASC freely enough. Now lets hear YOUR strategy, and remember, all your toys must remain IN the pram.

 

I think people criticise the BASC because we pay good money to have them represent us so when it is felt they have fallen short of doing that it's not unreasonable for it to be pointed out.

[poontang]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The real question, the one ignored by the bascerbators is "How do we combat the wwt`s allegations?".

 

Gents, if you really want to exercise your minds, give us a workable strategy that involves more than stamping ones feet whilst inserting fingers in one`s ears and shouting "NO" repeatedly.

 

You criticise BASC freely enough. Now lets hear YOUR strategy, and remember, all your toys must remain IN the pram.

 

I'm working on it.

[mudpatten]

A completely valid point of view if you are absolutely,100% certain that the "falling short" which so concerns you has actually happened.

 

Regrettably, people of a certain disposition are only too ready to believe the worst of BASC when the reality is very different.

 

Here`s a positive point with which I`m sure you will agree.

 

Whatever happens with damascus barrels and "he said, she said" the hard and unyielding fact is that it was BASC, and no one else, who has prevented the loss of lead shot, across the board, for over 20 years.

 

Some seem to lose sight of this fact when examining BASC throught the wrong end of the telescope.

[David BASC]

I have never denied that Mr Guard gave his view on how a ban may be implemented, so to suggest otherwise is incorrect.

 

I do reject strongly any suggestion by anyone that his comment had any impact on BASC Councils policy on lead shot, and this is proven by the fact that the policy on lead shot has not changed.

 

Are you seriously asking why minutes of some meetings that discuss key strategic and business issues cannot be posted on an open forum? Think about it for a moment…

 

Feedback from the membership is vital, and the more members engage with BASC the better; after all BASC is not just the elected council or the co opted members of an advisory committee, or our loyal volunteers, or the staff, or the fantastic large membership base… together we are BASC and we must work together.

 

David

Edited May 12, 2012 by David BASC

[mudpatten]

Poontang,I hope you will forgive me for pressing you on this.

 

BASC has a clearly stated policy on lead shot. You are critical of many aspects of its operation yet you have had as long as they have to develop a strategy and yet the best you can come up with is "I`m working on it."

 

You`ve had twenty years to work on it. Please, what is it?

 

You are so displeased with BASC that your alternative strategy must be better and cleverer than theirs.

 

Please, what is it?

[poontang]

Poontang,I hope you will forgive me for pressing you on this.

 

BASC has a clearly stated policy on lead shot. You are critical of many aspects of its operation yet you have had as long as they have to develop a strategy and yet the best you can come up with is "I`m working on it."

 

You`ve had twenty years to work on it. Please, what is it?

 

You are so displeased with BASC that your alternative strategy must be better and cleverer than theirs.

 

Please, what is it?

 

I haven't had 20 years to work on anything.

 

You asked the question "How do we combat WWT's allegations?"

 

As far as I know the allegations to which you were referring were the one's mentioned in the Shooting Times? After all's said and done that is what this thread is about.

 

To my knowledge WWT's latest attack on lead shot has only very recently come to light, so I'm not really sure where you get a 20 year timescale from?

 

I'm sorry if you thought my comment was flippant or light hearted, but the fact is I AM looking into a few things which could help BASC to counteract the arguments put forward by WWT.

Until, I've finished what I'm doing and got it in some sort of order there would be no point in discussing it on here.

[mudpatten]

The twenty year timescale is because the arguments used against us by the WWT are essentially the same as they have all been since the late 1970`s.

 

There is nothing new in what they are saying whatsoever.

 

That is where the twenty year timescale has come from.

 

Otherwise,I thank you for your efforts on our behalf and I look forward to comparing your conclusions to those of BASC.

 

You state that there "Would be no point in discussing it on here" until your research has been concluded and put into some sort of order. I sympathise with you on this point entirely and I`m happy to give you that time.

 

You might, however, get some stick from others on this forum who, from their attitude to BASC`s actions, will not be prepared to afford you the same patients or courtesy.

[wymberley]

I'm working on it.

 

 

Me too.

 

Kettle/pot, doesn't that take the biscuit, etc, etc. Such sayings surely apply to someone whose input up to now has been nothing but to attack members who've had the temerity to be critical of some asects of BASC because they've sensed a lack of initiative and who patently has none of his own either - certainly none that he wishes to share with us. I trust that it will be recognised that any display of ill manners is exempt from my point.

[Scully]

The above copy of the WWT`s policy on the removal of lead shot from circulation clearly shows those of us who are thinking logically about this,exactly who our enemy is.

 

It is,in this instance,the WWT.

 

And yet some of us,like rabid dogs mindlessly biting at their own backsides can think of nothing more constructive to do than savage BASC, fueled by warped arguments and driven by some twisted conspiracy theory.

 

It is difficult, for instance, to understand what part in the WWT`s strategy is going to be positively affected by the shooting lobby by entering into a mindless and irrelevant debate about whether you can use ntx in a damascus barreled gun.

 

Or an equally pointless debate about who said what to whom over two years ago. Who cares? Only a point scoring anal retentive could honestly think that the answer to this question is likely to affect WWT policy.

 

The real question, the one ignored by the bascerbators is "How do we combat the wwt`s allegations?".

 

Gents, if you really want to exercise your minds, give us a workable strategy that involves more than stamping ones feet whilst inserting fingers in one`s ears and shouting "NO" repeatedly.

 

You criticise BASC freely enough. Now lets hear YOUR strategy, and remember, all your toys must remain IN the pram.

I don't have a 'strategy' mudpatten,do you?The reason I don't is that I don't have the ears of politicians and ministers that BASC do,and therefore any strategy I could come up with would falter before it started,and so would yours.This is why I pay my money to an organisation which claims to be the voice of shooting.Or perhaps you would let us in on your strategy,unless it's one of blindlessly following and believing everything your organisation tells you,despite unquestionable evidence that they aren't telling you everything!

I am well aware of who the enemy is,(and am currently awaiting a reply from the WWT,the contents of which,I have been informed,are 'confidential'!I may have to join to make further enquiries!)but if you think my 'debate' with David is pointless,then you don't have to get involved do you!The answer to your question:'how do we combat the WWT's allegations?' is simple;with the facts!There are no threats to human health through the ingestion of lead shot from eating game,unless perhaps you eat nothing else!It's common sense,not rocket science!If you can find me one case of toxic poisoning due to the ingestion of eating game shot with lead in this country,then post it.Has BASC asked this question of the WWT?It's so pertinent and straightforward they surely couldn't have missed this opportunity to tell them to put up or shut up!What do you reckon?

I'm not driven by 'conspiracy theories' as you would clearly love to believe,but a desire to tell the anti's,and interested bodies where to go,and it annoys me immensely that BASC don't appear to have the bottle or commitment to this task.It's almost as if BASC have been told by ministers;'lead is going,it's up to you how you tell your members'.

You seem to have a fixation for things anal,'anal retentive','biting their own backsides';this is obviously your attempt to muddy the waters by injecting a few insulting remarks and possibly get the thread locked when those involved retaliate.You again mentioned 'point scoring',but I repeat,I don't mind losing,so long as shooting wins.I have nothing to hide,unlike BASC it appears.