WWT Lead Shot Plans

[David BASC]

Nothing

 

Yes it’s the use of lead in general for shooting that WWT have an issue with as far as I can see from the articles in ST and thier original leters etc that led to the formation of the LAG

 

Non lead ammo for stalking for example is already by some to good effect, but of course there will always be those who prefer lead.

 

The amount of lead particles dispersed through a deer is far greater than many realized. Whether or not this is a risk to human health is moot , hence back to the LAG, but I personally found the report on lead in foods from the European Food Standards Agency very interesting reading, but then again I am a biologist!

 

Lead for wildfowling has been banned for a while as I am sure you know

 

Let’s not get side tracked. DEFRA were always going to monitor self regulation / compliance, we were telling the shooting community this year after year, pity so many seem to have ignored what we were saying isn’t it?

 

The LAG is looking at the lead issue on a UK level and shooting is well represented on the group.

 

FACE are looking at the separate threat to lead on a European level, again our interests as shooters are well represented though the main shooting organizations and trade bodies that are part of FACE.

 

In the interim, I would hope all the orgnisations would join us in telling thier members that compliance with the law is vital, and for those that shoot but dont bother to support any of the orgnisations that are fighting for your rights, well I jolly well hope you listen too!

 

David

[scolopax]

Putting aside the rights and wrongs of shooting wildfowl in England and Wales with lead my question is what kind of idiots would sell lead shot ducks to the game dealers!! They need their heads examining!

[David BASC]

As to the cost of ammo and how it can be justified, this is a question that needs to be posed to the trade and the trade’s representative body.

 

There are a limited number of metals that can be used to make shot as I am sure we can all accept, and I am sure that if there were cheaper alternatives then the manufacturers would be using them, why wouldn’t they?

 

But evidently there are costs issues with many of the alternatives in terms of raw material of the shot and or the manufacturing of the shot that are driving the costs above lead and steel.

 

So what else can any of the shooting organizations do? We can’t make the shot any cheaper.

 

Wildfowlers of course tend to not use many cartridges, and although I remember all the scaremongering all those years ago about how a ban on lead would mean the end of wildfowling because it would be too expensive came to nothing, it was clear this would be the case.

 

However, I agree no pigeon shooter for example would use bismuth, or tungsten or anything other than steel or lead, unless they were ridiculously wealthy!

 

And this is why frankly I get so angry with those that seem to try and justify non compliance with the regulations; their attitude could mean that I have to stop using lead for my pigeon and rough shooting, simply because some fools decided not to comply with the law.

 

We were given the chance to self regulate – have we blown it?

[gunsmoke]

Putting aside the rights and wrongs of shooting wildfowl in England and Wales with lead my question is what kind of idiots would sell lead shot ducks to the game dealers!! They need their heads examining!

 

At the time the WWT report back in 2009 it was legal to use lead shot in scotland and north ireland. The duck tested could have come from there.

[wymberley]

As to the cost of ammo and how it can be justified, this is a question that needs to be posed to the trade and the trades representative body.

 

There are a limited number of metals that can be used to make shot as I am sure we can all accept, and I am sure that if there were cheaper alternatives then the manufacturers would be using them, why wouldnt they?

 

But evidently there are costs issues with many of the alternatives in terms of raw material of the shot and or the manufacturing of the shot that are driving the costs above lead and steel.

 

So what else can any of the shooting organizations do? We cant make the shot any cheaper.

 

Wildfowlers of course tend to not use many cartridges, and although I remember all the scaremongering all those years ago about how a ban on lead would mean the end of wildfowling because it would be too expensive came to nothing, it was clear this would be the case.

 

However, I agree no pigeon shooter for example would use bismuth, or tungsten or anything other than steel or lead, unless they were ridiculously wealthy!

 

And this is why frankly I get so angry with those that seem to try and justify non compliance with the regulations; their attitude could mean that I have to stop using lead for my pigeon and rough shooting, simply because some fools decided not to comply with the law.

 

We were given the chance to self regulate have we blown it?

 

David, thankyou for that and well said.

 

Just one point, when you ask what else can the shooting associations do. They can forcefully state that as no economically viable alternatives to lead have as yet been forthcoming, particularly for high volume usage as in vermin control, and therefore the economic viability requirement has patently not yet been met, the use of lead should contiue in the interim period.

 

However, indeed as you say - have we now blown it.

 

Edit: Muddled words sorted

Edited April 26, 2012 by wymberley

[gunsmoke]

 

However, I agree no pigeon shooter for example would use bismuth, or tungsten or anything other than steel or lead, unless they were ridiculously wealthy!

 

 

I would not use steel for pigeon shooting its ****!. Sorry, gunsmiths trade term used there.

 

I did some tests on steel with the clevedon wildfowlers and we found steel had around 30% less killing power then lead. also the no3 steel used in the test was over the proof max size for steel. Steel shot has to be 3.3mm, the steel shot we where using for the test was 3.6mm. I had to recommend that that type and make for cartridge could not be used.

 

I am not going to say that steel will not kill birds. In my tests using steel was like shooting pigeons with an old muzzle loading black power gun. They had to be close to the hide to kill them. I had so many wounded birds I never used steel again.

 

OH, David how much did BASC get for working on the WWT report?

[BlaserF3]

gunsmoke, excellent article on the lies regarding lead shot. I have always commented that there is no scientific evidence in the U.K. for a ban on lead shot.

[David BASC]

You asked how much BASC got paid and I said 'nothing'

 

Out of interest, what evidence is there that a duck in say the USA or France, or Russia that takes in lead shot into the gizzard will react in a different way to the same species of duck in the UK...given that many of our migratory duck fly in from overseas...

 

The issue of the efficiency of steel for pigeons has been gone over on this forum in the past in depth and I don’t propose we go over old ground. Some won’t use it some have and have got on with it fine, but I fully appreciate that some will never be convinced.

 

And here is another threat in my view along side the lack of compliance, are those that go round saying steel wounds so it should not be used! All shot will wound if you don’t put the right shot size into the right area!

 

David

[mudpatten]

But wait, whats that I see in the distance? Is it a knight in shining armour astride a white charger? Yes, its the Countryside Alliance ridimg to the rescue.Hurrah,all our worries on this issue are now over.They`ll beat this proposed ban!

 

I look forward to hearing their views expressed on this forum.

[al4x]

 

And here is another threat in my view along side the lack of compliance, are those that go round saying steel wounds so it should not be used! All shot will wound if you don’t put the right shot size into the right area!

 

 

 

you can up and up the shot size and its fine till you have instances that require large lead shot, take my last weekend vermin shooting, ground game in company with anything up to foxes encountered. Personally steel SSG's in woodland isn't something I want to be about if we have to go up a few shot sizes to compensate for inefficiency. You sound like you've given up the fight David the excuses about how good steel is are coming out rather than the simple fact alternatives that work well are hideously expensive and the lesser alternatives no where near as good. We need someone to fight the corner rather than roll out how good the alternatives are. Has non toxic resulted in far more injured ducks than ones dieing of lead poisoning the answer has to be yes.

Edited April 26, 2012 by al4x

[mudpatten]

Over a number of years the Langstone Wildfowlers, the UK`s first all NTX club, have carried out field trials on a number of non toxic materials.

 

The stats make interesting reading.

 

a14x`s assertion that NTX has resulted in more wounded ducks than have died of lead poisoning is a misleading and maliciously inaccurate statement.

 

The club has published some of it`s results but has maintained a tactical silence about some of it`s other findings. NTX works, but it might not be very clever to make that too well known with the current threats to lead that no one wants to lose.

 

Whilst the supporters of NTX have behaved sensibly with regard to lead,a14x employs no such logic.He maintains that NTX is unsuitable in a variety of situations and results in excessive crippling losses, the one thing that would make Government turn round and say, we`re banning lead because we believe it is poisonous,BUT SINCE NTX DOES`NT WORK EITHER, LETS JUST BAN ALL SHOOTING.

 

With friends like you pal, who needs enemies?

 

But like I said earlier, the Countryside Alliance will soon be with us to slay the NTX dragon!.

 

It always amazes me how quikly the BASC baiters, or bascerbators as they are often known, so quickly run out of rational critiscism and revert to outdated,technically inacurate and hackneyed misrepresentations.

 

I welcome the wise words of the CA`s new chief exec. Barney White Spunner on this subject. Bit slow off the mark aint they?

[mpk]

Over a number of years the Langstone Wildfowlers, the UK`s first all NTX club, have carried out field trials on a number of non toxic materials.

 

The stats make interesting reading.

 

a14x`s assertion that NTX has resulted in more wounded ducks than have died of lead poisoning is a misleading and maliciously inaccurate statement.

 

The club has published some of it`s results but has maintained a tactical silence about some of it`s other findings. NTX works, but it might not be very clever to make that too well known with the current threats to lead that no one wants to lose.

 

Whilst the supporters of NTX have behaved sensibly with regard to lead,a14x employs no such logic.He maintains that NTX is unsuitable in a variety of situations and results in excessive crippling losses, the one thing that would make Government turn round and say, we`re banning lead because we believe it is poisonous,BUT SINCE NTX DOES`NT WORK EITHER, LETS JUST BAN ALL SHOOTING.

 

With friends like you pal, who needs enemies?

 

But like I said earlier, the Countryside Alliance will soon be with us to slay the NTX dragon!.

 

It always amazes me how quikly the BASC baiters, or bascerbators as they are often known, so quickly run out of rational critiscism and revert to outdated,technically inacurate and hackneyed misrepresentations.

 

I welcome the wise words of the CA`s new chief exec. Barney White Spunner on this subject. Bit slow off the mark aint they?

 

[David BASC]

Many of our members have to use non toxic so we have always wanted to deliver information to those members about the use of non toxic as well as lead shot, shot types their limits, the effect of choke, the effect of plastic wads or non plastic wads etc, that does not mean I or BASC has rolled over.

 

Given steel shot is widely used and perfectly well too, and has a significant price point advantage I cant understand why as soon as I mention it some of you jump on my back.

 

BASC like all the other main shooting organisations, countryside organisations like the CA and the trade bodies like the GTA oppose further restrictions on lead shot and we are maintaining a common front on this at European level through FACE.

 

At the UK level the LAG is still researching the primary evidence for risks to human health and to the environment, I believe there was a meeting recently and the latest minutes should be up there soon. It is my understanding that DEFRA will review the LAG report and its conclusions and decide what action , if any, to take.

 

A united front is what is needed and our defense will be based on science , fact and compliance with the law, it will not be based on off the cuff emotive statements that may please the audience but which cannot be supported.

 

We have very professional staff in BASC, who are fighting your corner, lets not play into the anti's hands by starting fights within our own ranks.

 

David

[Scully]

Interesting reading on Gunsmokes blog regarding Tungsten....wondered why I always had a bad head the morning after 'darts night'!

[wymberley]

 

Given steel shot is widely used and perfectly well too, and has a significant price point advantage I cant understand why as soon as I mention it some of you jump on my back.

 

I can.

 

Continual praise of 'steel' shot will eventually cause someone to say that there is a proven satisfactory alternative to lead so we will now ban lead forthwith. It is necessary to temper this praise with the perfectly valid problem areas. David, if you bring me 1000 commercially loaded suitable steel cartridges, I will pay you double of what they cost, will multiply your fuel bill by 10 and treat you to the finest meal that The Jack in The Green restaurant can prepare. Oh, both of my guns, a 1934 Churchill and a 1964 AYA, are 21/2" chambers and proofed for 11/8oz load.

 

Also, of course, the "go up two shot sizes for a compatible performance to lead" is a load of codswallop (in ballisticians' terminology). An understanding of pellet energy density reflects this fact.

 

 

We have very professional staff in BASC, who are fighting your corner, lets not play into the anti's hands by starting fights within our own ranks.

 

David, criticism, even misguided, can be interpreted as concern. No one here is picking a fight, simply trying to get their point across. Yep, sometimes this can come over somewhat forcefully perhaps, but this may well reflect the degree of concern and any response should be tempered with that in mind.

 

David

[anser2]

Quote am not going to say that steel will not kill birds. In my tests using steel was like shooting pigeons with an old muzzle loading black power gun. They had to be close to the hide to kill them. I had so many wounded birds I never used steel again.

 

Gunsmoke that hardly a good test for the efectivness of modern steel cartridges is it. How many of us use a muzzel loading shotgun for our pigeon shooting ?

 

A good quality steel shell in a 32 gr load of no 4 or better no 3 in a 2 3\4 inch game gun will kill cleanly out to 45 yards with no problems at all. I have shot hundreds of pigeons and pheasants with this load with no more runners than lead. Its only when you start to shoot at the limits of range than steel fails compaired to lead.

 

MODERN STEEL SHELLS KILL CLEANLY WITH THE RIGHT LOAD AND AT NORMAL GAME RANGES IN GAME GUNS.

Edited April 26, 2012 by anser2

[wymberley]

Quote “am not going to say that steel will not kill birds. In my tests using steel was like shooting pigeons with an old muzzle loading black power gun. They had to be close to the hide to kill them. I had so many wounded birds I never used steel again.”

 

Gunsmoke that hardly a good test for the efectivness of modern steel cartridges is it. How many of us use a muzzel loading shotgun for our pigeon shooting ?

 

A good quality steel shell in a 32 gr load of no 4 or better no 3 in a 2 3\4 inch game gun will kill cleanly out to 45 yards with no problems at all. I have shot hundreds of pigeons and pheasants with this load with no more runners than lead. Its only when you start to shoot at the limits of range than steel fails compaired to lead.

 

MODERN STEEL SHELLS KILL CLEANLY WITH THE RIGHT LOAD AND AT NORMAL GAME RANGES IN GAME GUNS.

 

Except those with 21/2" chambers!

[anser2]

BlaserF3

 

Quote I have always commented that there is no scientific evidence in the U.K. for a ban on lead shot.

 

The reason for that is you never bother to read anything negative about lead. You have had a number of papers that I provided links to you so you could read them , but you obviously never did read them.

 

And in your own words from other posts in this forum you do not care if birds get posioned by lead as long as you can keep using lead !!

Edited April 26, 2012 by anser2

[anser2]

Wymberly how many people shoot with 2 1\2 inch chambered guns ? less that 1 % of the guns in use today i suspect. The answer is simple, I am a wildfowler and when my old guns were nolonger man enough to shoot todays magnum steel loads I went out and bought a gun that would handle the loads I wanted to use.

 

Thats what most gunners did when we changed from muzzel loaders to breach loaders and then again when demascus would not handle nito powders we went out and bought nitro proof guns. Steel is just a further evolution in shotgun development. In a decade we will wonder what all the fuss is about.

 

 

When I first started to use steel the shells were pretty poor and I did not understand how to shoot steel properly. I hated the stuff with a vengence. But by realising that steel patterns differently to lead , changing the shot size I use by going up 2 or 3 sizes and getting the correct steel chokes sorted out I no longer miss lead at all and it would not worry if lead was banned tomorrow , steel will do all I ask be it shooting pigeons or high geese and I know I will have no more runners with steel than I did with normal lead loads and just as many clean kills.

 

I must stress the word " normal" here meaning game and standard magnum loads . I will conceed that some of the special American long range loads are unlikely to be equaled by steel. Such as the 1 7\8ths oz Winchester 3 inch magnum with copper plated buffered shot. In my mind the best shotgun shell ever made.

Edited April 26, 2012 by anser2

[fenntay]

BlaserF3

 

Quote “I have always commented that there is no scientific evidence in the U.K. for a ban on lead shot.”

 

The reason for that is you never bother to read anything negative about lead. You have had a number of papers that I provided links to you so you could read them , but you obviously never did read them.

 

And in your own words from other posts in this forum you do not care if birds get posioned by lead as long as you can keep using lead !!

 

 

anser is that homeloaded steel or factory loaded perhaps cip lifted restriction and allowed some of the us steel in to country people would welcome steel more

[wymberley]

Wymberly how many people shoot with 2 1\2 inch chambered guns ? less that 1 % of the guns in use today i suspect. The answer is simple, I am a wildfowler and when my old guns were nolonger man enough to shoot todays magnum steel loads I went out and bought a gun that would handle the loads I wanted to use.

 

Thats what most gunners did when we changed from muzzel loaders to breach loaders and then again when demascus would not handle nito powders we went out and bought nitro proof guns. Steel is just a further evolution in shotgun development. In a decade we will wonder what all the fuss is about.

 

Welcome your input but I dont want suspicions - facts will suffice.

 

I am not a wildfowler but note that by your own admission you CHOSE to do what you wanted as did the load bangs and lots of smoke brigade - someone is going to attempt to FORCE me into doing what THEY want.

 

In a decade you may well wonder what all the fuss is ( yep, noted the present tense, lead IS still in use) about. By then and after 50+ years of fags and my three score years and ten well and truly exceeded I really won't be too concerned.

 

Have you just added (edit) a chunk to your post?

 

If so, I agree with your 'new' third paragraph.

 

The best shotgun cartridge ever? The Eley Impax.

Edited April 26, 2012 by wymberley

[anser2]

al4x , I shoot a lot of ducks and geese in a season mainly on the foreshore where a good quality shell is needed and of course I use steel. I lose no more birds through wounding using steel that i ever did back in the lead days. All this talk of wounding goes back to the days when steel was first introduced , but it bears no relation to the modern steel shells of today. Try some Gamebore 3 inch no 3s next time you go wildfowling , keep your shots within 45 yards and you will have no problem with wounding ducks if you hold your gun straight.

Edited April 26, 2012 by anser2

[anser2]

I will give you a simple fact on the effectivness of steel. 97 geese mainly foreshore pinks , but also white fronts , canadas and greylag for 120 shots. All with steel. Could you better that with lead ?

 

The gun used was a 3.5 inch Browning Gold with a full ( .700 ) American Undertaker choke ( Turkey choke ) and the cartridges were mainly very fast 3.5 1 3\8oz loads of BB homeloads 1600 fps and Remmington\Winchester 3.5 inch loads in BBB at 1550 fps.

Edited April 26, 2012 by anser2

[BlaserF3]

BlaserF3

 

Quote “I have always commented that there is no scientific evidence in the U.K. for a ban on lead shot.”

 

The reason for that is you never bother to read anything negative about lead. You have had a number of papers that I provided links to you so you could read them , but you obviously never did read them.

 

And in your own words from other posts in this forum you do not care if birds get posioned by lead as long as you can keep using lead !!

 

The amount of cartridges that are fired at birds, compared to the amount that are fired at clays is a small percentage. Why should I be lumbered with steel shot as it is over 30 years ago since I last shot a bird.

 

My average cartridge use for clays is about 8000 per year, how many game shooters, wild fowlers etc; shoot that many?

 

That's why I don't feel any guilt about "poisoned" birds.

[wymberley]

I will give you a simple fact on the effectivness of steel. 97 geese mainly foreshore pinks , but also white fronts , canadas and greylag for 120 shots. All with steel. Could you better that with lead ?

 

The gun used was a 3.5 inch Browning Gold with a full ( .700 ) American Undertaker choke ( Turkey choke ) and the cartridges were mainly very fast 3.5 1 3\8oz loads of homeloads and Remmington 3.5 inch loads of Nitrosteel in BBB.

 

Yep, I'd have fired 120 cartridges at something I could actually eat!