WWT Lead Shot Plans

[gunsmoke]

David

 

I can tell you I would not use steel in a Churchill made in 1934. I've had barrel in the workshop where the owner has used steel shot and the bores have been damaged by the steel shot.

 

As a gunsmith with 40 years in the workshop you use steel in your gun at your own risk.

[gunsmoke]

BASC got NO MONEY! for your work on the WWT report?

 

On the Defra web site the WWT got £63,557 for the report. attached.

WWT ABSTRACT.doc

[mudpatten]

Gunsmoke,at last, someone with gun trade experience with a gun damaged by steel.

 

Could you please supply us with the details of the steel cartridge used to damage your 1934 Churchill, and above all else, a photograph of the damage.

 

For years we`ve had stories about the damage caused to barrels by the use of steel, but,the odd only-to-be-expected ring bulge at the chokes apart,photographic evidence of this phenomenon is like hens teeth.Amongst the anti steel brigade everyone knows someone whos gun has been damaged.Please, please, show us yours!

[wymberley]

 

the odd only-to-be-expected ring bulge at the chokes apart,

 

 

I've tried to get the answer to this before and failed; perhaps you could help. A ring bulge as we know is caused by the barrel material exceeding its elastic limit. If you were to have one of these in your barrel ( this occurance by its very nature is irrepairable so you're now faced with a barrel replacemnt for your 1934 Churchill, Purdey or Browning any of which have taken a nose dive in terms of value as a result) and you shoot a higher pressur round but one which is still within the proof limits, as the elstic limit is already exceeded, will that bulge get bigger (although not a metallurgist, I've always thought not) or will the barrel split (although not a metallurgist, I've always thought this to be a possibility)? It's always puzzled me and I'd love to know the definite answer.

[David BASC]

Standard steel should be available in 65mm cartridges and runs at about 740 bar and 1350 fps. However, a quick look on the web and I can’t find any steel cartridges less than 70mm!! I dare say that if the demand increased for 2 ½” standard steel then one of the manufacturers would certainly start making it. Judging by the current price of steel I suggest it would run out at around £200 / 1000

 

CIP recommends no more than ½ choke in traditional game guns but British proof House are more cautious and go for no more than ¼ choke. Steel must NOT be used in Damascus barrels of course.

 

However, that kind of brings me back to one of the key points, its people who ignore the self regulation that will give fuel to the WWT fire on their call for a wider lead ban!

 

David

[wymberley]

Standard steel should be available in 65mm cartridges and runs at about 740 bar and 1350 fps. However, a quick look on the web and I can’t find any steel cartridges less than 70mm!! I dare say that if the demand increased for 2 ½” standard steel then one of the manufacturers would certainly start making it. Judging by the current price of steel I suggest it would run out at around £200 / 1000

 

CIP recommends no more than ½ choke in traditional game guns but British proof House are more cautious and go for no more than ¼ choke. Steel must NOT be used in Damascus barrels of course.

 

However, that kind of brings me back to one of the key points, its people who ignore the self regulation that will give fuel to the WWT fire on their call for a wider lead ban!

 

David

 

70/23/4" 65/21/2"

 

Never ask a question to which you dont..... Forget your meal, but if you're down this way, I'll stand you fish and chips for effort!

 

There IS a demand for 21/2" steel - I want some. If they cannot be provided at present, any legislation, and in accordance with said criteria ( which for some unknown reason the pro NTX lobby keep failing to acknowlege ever existed), should permit us little one percenters (anyone know the figure for the number of purely wildfowl only shooters?) an exemption on the grounds of the economic criterion until such time as our needs are met.

[David BASC]

I fully take your point, I may be wrong but I am sure that when steel cartridges were first available that there were 2 1/2 available but having checked 4 web sites I can’t find any...

 

Thanks for the offer, I love fish & chips!

 

I remember full well the discussions about criteria, I remember at a Wildfowling Conference in the late 90's Tony laws from BASC stating in the firmest possible way without shouting or being aggressive to a representative form the DoE as it as then I think what the criteria were.

 

I guess the industry will keep researching shot types?

 

David

[Dangerous Brian]

Anyone know how much a box of .410 shells loaded with Bismuth is likely to cost?

 

Would like to know as I can't see me being able to fit many No. 4 steel pellets in a 2 1/2 inch case. As already said above the steel shot effectivness/ cost thing has been covered in depth but steel isn't very cost effective if you have to replace a whole gun because you can't put enough shot through it! I have never used steel shot through my 12 gauge but I would have thought that it should be able to work with suitable measures taken on shot and charge size but smaller bores are a bit more limited to the volume of shot thay can handle which will make tham a bit pricey to run on the other non toxic alternatives.

[David BASC]

About £840 per 1000 from Just Cartridges, but of course shop around!

http://www.justcartridges.com/pdf/nontoxic.pdf

 

David

[Guest cookoff013]

I would not use steel for pigeon shooting its ****!. Sorry, gunsmiths trade term used there.

 

I did some tests on steel with the clevedon wildfowlers and we found steel had around 30% less killing power then lead. also the no3 steel used in the test was over the proof max size for steel. Steel shot has to be 3.3mm, the steel shot we where using for the test was 3.6mm. I had to recommend that that type and make for cartridge could not be used.

 

I am not going to say that steel will not kill birds. In my tests using steel was like shooting pigeons with an old muzzle loading black power gun. They had to be close to the hide to kill them. I had so many wounded birds I never used steel again.

 

OH, David how much did BASC get for working on the WWT report?

 

30% less effective compared to shot weight in grains or mm? there is a big discrepency there. fine there are some rules about shooting steel shot, like use a decent shotsize, to be on comparable terms, not the diameter. ramp up the speed 100-200fps more than a normal 1300fps lead load and there you go. a shell.

cip regulated shells are poor, because there is a speed and a recoil limit. that is an issue.

infact some steel game loads were chrono`d a few years ago. 800fps. thats no use to man or beast. that is not a shell.

 

how can the US have some areas as non toxic only, and still do ok? better shells.

[mudpatten]

Wymberly,where ring bulges are concerned extensive U.S. experience seems to suggest that,sensible safety aspects apart,the best thing to do with a ring bulge is to ignore it and carry on shooting.

 

As is usual with this topic we`ve been moved away from the original theme by the hysterical anti steel lobby who go into an epileptic lather at the mere mention of the stuff.

 

Just to re state my position in all this so that some sanity might return to the discussion.

 

I agree with all the concerns,objections and issues surrounding the use of NTX.

 

What I cannot allow to pass unchallenged is the statement that "NTX,steel in particular, does not work."

 

It does,and it works well.

 

Base the arguments on areas of real concern and you`ll have the field to yourself. Keep distorting the truth and those with a positive experience of steel will remain a thorn in your side.

 

I`m looking forward to seeing Gunsmokes photographs of barrels damaged by steel shot.

 

As ever, BASC is getting unjustified stick over this issue, I eagerly await the CA`s contribution to the debate.

[gunsmoke]

Many of our members have to use non toxic so we have always wanted to deliver information to those members about the use of non toxic as well as lead shot, shot types their limits, the effect of choke, the effect of plastic wads or non plastic wads etc, that does not mean I or BASC has rolled over.

 

Given steel shot is widely used and perfectly well too, and has a significant price point advantage I cant understand why as soon as I mention it some of you jump on my back.

 

Right: first David its not personal. You've put your head up and we are shooting back. You try and control the view point here.

BASC like all the other main shooting organisations, countryside organisations like the CA and the trade bodies like the GTA oppose further restrictions on lead shot and we are maintaining a common front on this at European level through FACE.

 

If that is so why did BASC tell its members not to sign my petition to say no to a wider lead ban for shooting? At the CLA last year BASC members and staff told me so, then signed the pettion.

At the UK level the LAG is still researching the primary evidence for risks to human health and to the environment, I believe there was a meeting recently and the latest minutes should be up there soon. It is my understanding that DEFRA will review the LAG report and its conclusions and decide what action , if any, to take.

 

[i]The people on LAG looking at the primary evidence are some of the very people that wrote the research paper they are looking at. Its just like climategate![/i]

 

A united front is what is needed and our defense will be based on science , fact and compliance with the law, it will not be based on off the cuff emotive statements that may please the audience but which cannot be supported.

 

Yes I agree, however the WWT/BASC/CLA report has been shot out the water. Yet BASC and other seem to be going along with it.

We have very professional staff in BASC, who are fighting your corner, lets not play into the anti's hands by starting fights within our own ranks.

 

You are already in the hands of the anti's, you [bASC] helped write the WWT report.

David

Edited April 27, 2012 by gunsmoke

[David BASC]

Why shoot at me? I’m on your side doh! But hey I guess I am an easy target.

 

BASC has always fought for no further restrictions on lead, despite what some may say for their own or their association’s perceived benefit. It’s not always been easy and trust me it often been lonely with so may sitting on the sidelines waiting to see what happens next.

 

Members and others can, I am sure, make up their own mind about your petition, and for that matter your suggestion in your article that swans that fly from Iceland etc have muscle wastage because they have flow here? err no think about what muscles do when you use them and think about how animals store energy and release energy for work…if you are seeing muscle atrophy something has gone very badly wrong such as starvation, illness, poisoning….

 

LAG is looking at a range of papers as listed on their web site and as far as I know some original research too. As you should be fully aware there are those on the LAG who want to see more restrictions on lead shot use and their view, just as those who do not want further restrictions will be heard. DEFRA , I am sure, want a balanced report from the group based on FACT not emotive conspiracy theories, made up ‘facts’ or scaremonger tactics.

 

The BASC CLA bit of the research looking at the level of compliance has not been 'shot out of the water' as you say; it’s a sad fact that compliance among inland shoots is low. But let’s hope this has changed.

 

But lets get back to basics, there are threats to lead shot at a UK level and a European level and the main organisations are standing together to face those threats as should we all.

 

Accusing and attacking those that are trying to defend your sport, or attacking different shot types, or ignoring the law is not going to help.

 

 

David

Edited April 27, 2012 by David BASC

[fenntay]

Why shoot at me? I’m on your side doh! But hey I guess I am an easy target.

 

BASC has always fought for no further restrictions on lead, despite what some may say for their own or their association’s perceived benefit. It’s not always been easy and trust me it often been lonely with so may sitting on the sidelines waiting to see what happens next.

 

Members and others can, I am sure, make up their own mind about your petition, and for that matter your suggestion in your article that swans that fly from Iceland etc have muscle wastage because they have flow here? err no think about what muscles do when you use them and think about how animals store energy and release energy for work…if you are seeing muscle atrophy something has gone very badly wrong such as starvation, illness, poisoning….

 

LAG is looking at a range of papers as listed on their web site and as far as I know some original research too. As you should be fully aware there are those on the LAG who want to see more restrictions on lead shot use and their view, just as those who do not want further restrictions will be heard. DEFRA , I am sure, want a balanced report from the group based on FACT not emotive conspiracy theories, made up ‘facts’ or scaremonger tactics.

 

The BASC CLA bit of the research looking at the level of compliance has not been 'shot out of the water' as you say; it’s a sad fact that compliance among inland shoots is low. But let’s hope this has changed.

 

But lets get back to basics, there are threats to lead shot at a UK level and a European level and the main organisations are standing together to face those threats as should we all.

 

 

 

 

David I was at a meeting back in the mid 90, s when mr swift and harradine assured us the lead would not be banned for wildfowling unless the criteria of

1. Cost ,

2, effectiveness ,

3, suitability ,

Within a few years lead was banned for wildfowl in England and non of the above criteria was meet and time to use stocks of wildfowling cartridges up .

So on a personal note I have no faith in BASC fighting our corner .... Rant over

 

 

Accusing and attacking those that are trying to defend your sport, or attacking different shot types, or ignoring the law is not going to help.

 

 

David

[David BASC]

I too was at these meetings and that was very much our position, you may recall at the time it was only BASC that was taking this matter to task.

 

There had been massive pressure to ban lead shot in the UK and for over 10 years we had fought against change and when change came we achieved a further delay not least of all to try to give the cartridge manufacturing industry time to develop viable alternatives.

 

We had to delay implantation until alternatives were available otherwise wildfowling would have been in a real sticky situation!

 

At the same time there was massive pressure for a total lead shot ban, and we successfully fought this off.

 

We also fought of the demands for DETR to give local authorities the power to appoint who ever they wanted to ‘police’ the ban.

 

After the restrictions came in we got some of the site base restrictions in England lifted with a few years

 

So yes, we did fight your corner!! I am not to sure anyone else even turned up for the fight in the 90’s frankly.

 

David

[Dangerous Brian]

About £840 per 1000 from Just Cartridges, but of course shop around!

http://www.justcartridges.com/pdf/nontoxic.pdf

 

David

 

Wow! Not very cost effective then. Just had a look at the 12 gauge magnums on there- now that is expenive.

 

So basically, if lead is banned, the smaller bores are likely to get priced out of existence as steel is not likely to get the job done in those cases.

 

Thanks for the info David.

 

ATB Brian

[anser2]

I suspect the main problem for steel is it was released onto the market before it was ready. UK made steel shells were pretty awful a decade ago and I suspect many on here base their opinion of steel on those old style shells. American and modern gamebore steel shells are in a different leauge and i have heard at last Express are getting to get their act togeather and load some decent shells now.

 

If you normaly use 28-32 gram loads of lead in say no 6 and just switch to the same loads in steel you will not do very well. you need to learn how to shoot steel with its tighter patterns , faster speeds and using much larger pellets.

 

I know a gunsmith who has had several guns through his hands with buldged barrels , but in every case the guns have had full choke. Of course it is recomended that for normal guns you do not exceed 1\2 choke , however it is possible to get full choke screw in chokes made just for steel. My full chokes are not just made for steel , but regulated for specific shot sizes.

 

Wymberley you cant be suggesting you cant eat geese are you. I have forgoted how many 100s I have eaten and if you have the skills of any normal cook they are very good , better than many a roast beef dinner I have had. Like shooting steel you have to learn how to do it properly.

 

There is a broader picture than has been covered so far on this post, Public opinion. The public does not like lead , its a proven posion which is why its been removed from so many products. If my granchildren are going to be shooting in 50 years time shooting men are going to have to be flexable and to be seen scattering a posion around the countryside is not a very good way to matain support in our sport from the public , but then some of us do not worry about the future of shooting as long as their gun keeps going off. Lead and steel kill , but lead keeps on killing for a long time after you have pulled the trigger.

 

If anyone doubts lead pellets will posion birds get hold of a dozen ducks . Scatter some no 6 lead pellets in their drinking water and see how many you have alive after 6 weeks!

Edited April 27, 2012 by anser2

[wymberley]

anser 2, I'd stop eating so many geese; it appears to have affected your sense of humour!

[gunsmoke]

Standard steel should be available in 65mm cartridges and runs at about 740 bar and 1350 fps. However, a quick look on the web and I can’t find any steel cartridges less than 70mm!! I dare say that if the demand increased for 2 ½” standard steel then one of the manufacturers would certainly start making it. Judging by the current price of steel I suggest it would run out at around £200 / 1000

 

CIP recommends no more than ½ choke in traditional game guns but British proof House are more cautious and go for no more than ¼ choke. Steel must NOT be used in Damascus barrels of course.

 

However, that kind of brings me back to one of the key points, its people who ignore the self regulation that will give fuel to the WWT fire on their call for a wider lead ban!

 

David

 

I can not let you get away with this statement. "steel must not be use in Damascus barrels of course."

 

Where did you get that one from. It just goes to show how much you understand about firearms and proof.

 

If you use a traditional game gun, if it has steel or damascus barrels does not matter. They are both proofed the same. Damascus barrels should be the stronger barrels. It tests damascus barrels where shown to be stronger than steel.

 

You do not know what you are talking about.

 

When we have jokes like you working to save shooting for us. God help us all.

[scolopax]

I like lead, its great stuff. I like using lead when I can. When I cannot use lead I use steel, ITM and best of all, Hevi shot, they are respectively, not quite as good as lead, the same as lead, and better than lead. They will all cleanly kill quarry at appropriate ranges, and Hevi shot in particular at completely inappropriate ranges!

 

Now Gunsmoke, whoever you are, your rants are not helping your cause and you are making yourself look a wee bit foolish. Its always so much easier to criticise than it is to be constructive!

Edited April 28, 2012 by scolopax

[wymberley]

I can not let you get away with this statement. "steel must not be use in Damascus barrels of course."

 

Where did you get that one from. It just goes to show how much you understand about firearms and proof.

 

If you use a traditional game gun, if it has steel or damascus barrels does not matter. They are both proofed the same. Damascus barrels should be the stronger barrels. It tests damascus barrels where shown to be stronger than steel.

 

You do not know what you are talking about.

 

When we have jokes like you working to save shooting for us. God help us all.

 

One too many sherbets yesterday evening, then?

 

That final sentences of that post are way beyond the pale and it is to be hoped that an apopogy will be forthcoming once the hair off the dog has kicked in.

 

Disagreements yes insults no

[David BASC]

In my view, when people start slinging insults they have lost the plot or know they have lost the argument..

 

The statement about Damascas barrels came from the CIP / Proof House I believe when steel shot first came out, its not something I simply made up. But I will check again is this is still the guidance and if not I will change the statement on our web site of course, but I can’t frankly see loads of people with this type of barrel lining up to use steel!!

 

There will always be strong views about lead, of course because its something we are very used to using and we are comfortable with it so we are bound to resist change.

 

As you know, due to the great work that was started by BASC as the ‘Campaign for Game’ about 16 years ago, which the CA evolved into their Game to Eat campaign and BASC evolved into Taste of Game, we have seen game sales in the UK increase massively, and long may this continue. But consumer demands are changing and there are strict limits for certain types of metals that are of no biological benefit, in foods; lead is one of them.

 

However, if based on science there is clear evidence that we need to do more to limit lead in the environment or lead in food through shooting then me must change. That’s the pragmatic view of the shooting, countryside and as far as I know trade associations on LAG and FACE UK. But before we leap to any conclusions lets wait to see what the risks are and how the risks can be managed.

 

I don’t think WWT have exactly covered themselves in glory with these leaked minutes, but it does seem they are looking t attack lead in food. Not exactly the remit of the bird/ land conservation charity! I think Tim Bonners piece in this weeks Shooting Times was pretty well spot on, read it if you get a chance.

 

Turning to shot types, at the moment, I cannot see any other material out there either as an element or an alloy that has weight, density and softness characteristics of lead that can be used to make shot, and sell for around £200 per 1000. If there was then I would expect that the combined knowledge and resources of the worlds cartridge industry would have come up with something by now.

 

So what we are more like to keep on seeing is further developments of the products currently on the market. And for the foreseeable future that will include lead shot of course

And finally, on compliance, it is important ,we are masters of our own destiny, I hope that all the other shooting and country organisations will join BASC in stressing to their members how important it is to comply with the law.

 

Best to all

 

David

[Scully]

You are obviously very wound up about this whole issue gunsmoke,and I can empathise with that.You obviously don't trust BASC either for whatever reason,and to be honest I'm unconvinced of BASC's sincerity and openness regarding this whole affair(perhaps it's because I distrust politicians completelty,and J.Swift sounds more and more like a politician each time I listen to him!)and the more I read about the natural occurence of lead in our diets,such as cereals and powdered milk such as SMA(which is higher in lead than breast milk,yet widely advertised as a healthy option worlwide)the more sceptical I become about WWT claims that their agenda is purely based on the welfare of wildfowl.As far as I know the science is as yet inconclusive,and WWT are obviously feeling the need to change their tactics,hence the motion as reported in the current issue of ST.

I am genuinely interested to hear what you have to say,but you need to decide whether your agenda is based on genuine concerns about this subject,or,as it appears,a personal grievance against BASC.It may be based on both of course,for whatever reason,and David BASC may have got it wrong regarding steel and Damascus barrels,but you would have gained more respect if you had pointed it out without the personal insults.If you persist with the latter the Mod's will ban you,or lock the topic,or both,then none of us will get to read what you have to say.

Am still looking forward to reading your article in next weeks CW.

[mpk]

I can not let you get away with this statement. "steel must not be use in Damascus barrels of course."

 

Where did you get that one from. It just goes to show how much you understand about firearms and proof.

 

If you use a traditional game gun, if it has steel or damascus barrels does not matter. They are both proofed the same. Damascus barrels should be the stronger barrels. It tests damascus barrels where shown to be stronger than steel.

 

You do not know what you are talking about.

 

When we have jokes like you working to save shooting for us. God help us all.

 

gunsmoke i am still interested to see the so called damage to guns from steel shot ?......donor have any pictures ?

[gunsmoke]

You are obviously very wound up about this whole issue gunsmoke,and I can empathise with that.You obviously don't trust BASC either for whatever reason,and to be honest I'm unconvinced of BASC's sincerity and openness regarding this whole affair(perhaps it's because I distrust politicians completelty,and J.Swift sounds more and more like a politician each time I listen to him!)and the more I read about the natural occurence of lead in our diets,such as cereals and powdered milk such as SMA(which is higher in lead than breast milk,yet widely advertised as a healthy option worlwide)the more sceptical I become about WWT claims that their agenda is purely based on the welfare of wildfowl.As far as I know the science is as yet inconclusive,and WWT are obviously feeling the need to change their tactics,hence the motion as reported in the current issue of ST.

I am genuinely interested to hear what you have to say,but you need to decide whether your agenda is based on genuine concerns about this subject,or,as it appears,a personal grievance against BASC.It may be based on both of course,for whatever reason,and David BASC may have got it wrong regarding steel and Damascus barrels,but you would have gained more respect if you had pointed it out without the personal insults.If you persist with the latter the Mod's will ban you,or lock the topic,or both,then none of us will get to read what you have to say.

Am still looking forward to reading your article in next weeks CW.

 

Scully you are right. I'd just come it from rabbiting and had a cup of tea and checked emails.

 

BASC staff put themself up as shooting experts, some of them are but when you get them making statemnet that are untrue I have to point it out. Sometimes an organistion like BASC needs a kick up the ****.

 

I support BASC normally, but on lead shot I have not seen any proof they are working in the interests of shooting. I when to a meeting of the DI and John Swift's opening line was "there is lead in the food chain".

 

Reading the reports and scientific reports into lead shot I find that there are two names on must of the papers. Dr Harradine and Dr Pain.

 

How can we have an independent inquiry when the very people on that inquiry have written the papers they are review? Climategate springs to mind.

 

With regard to the WWT/BASC/CLA report. When you are fighting for a defendant you do not go out and find the evidence that is going to convict them. So why are our shooting Organisations seeming to strive to find non existent evidence, to shoot ourselves in the foot with?

 

I have some notes on lead shot from vets and doctors, I will add then to this thread later today.