Incedible lung shot

[yds]

So, was the hedge solid? I know the backstop suitability was questioned, but can't find an answer :-(

I thought it had been answered already. It was infront of a 90ft wall made of granite.

 

LOL

 

NO here is the answer it was asked and answered on another forum;

As it happens we had just come from the other side of that hedge and saw the buck behind us, we crossed through it and turned back into him. We now knew nothing but a large arable field was behind the hedge as only a minute earlier we were stood in it. The shot wasn't even taken through the hedge but along it. Enough there to break any remaining bullet up before it even "grounded out" just behind the animal. the shot as most was taken off the sticks so a good downward angle is assured.

How many threads have been started on here about me asking/making a client take an unsafe shot??

I'm sure the amount of people i deal with you would see 1 appear were it true.

Edited May 30, 2012 by yds

[al4x]

Blunderbust out of interest how many head and neck shots have you "missed" ?

 

Normally your posts are ok but this thread hasn't shown a lot of best practice just the fact you are happy with the elevated risks of wounding in a way you will not catch up with the beast. The simple thing with chest shots is they have a large room for error and that can be anything down to the animal moving at the last moment to an ammunition problem or a scope issue. No one can guarantee their placement 100% there are too many variables so though you claim to be worried about your quarry what you've posted so far suggests not. Deer can run simple fact on a chest shot but you shouldn't loose them, the same cannot be said for a botched head or neck shot.

[bignoel]

no suffering there then .

[yds]

no suffering there then .

technically NO

because of the drop in blood pressure the brain is quickly starved of blood so his perceptions are dulled quickly.

The hole in his lungs does not kill him from shortness of breath but its the blood loss there stops it going to the brain which shuts down stopping the heart and any other functions including nerve endings.

And again how many animals are pricked or wounded by shotguns and any gun/marksman?. I know i've been shooting and picking up all my life(nearly)

No one watching the videos of game shooting posted last winter was loosing any sleep over the pricked birds which glided for 100's of yards with shot in them. Its NO different only a different animal.

Edited May 30, 2012 by yds

[Ant8681]

it is educational in the respect if the deer had not turned to show the exit hole and run into cover how many wouldn't have gone and checked to see if it was a hit?

Yes we see it jump but not so many do when they are shooting because they close their eyes on recoil.

Again if you sift through the vids you will often hear a client say "did i get it?" when they hve hit it well.

and to say watch it over and over again? stop playing it.

Trust me i only watched it once! What you and other peolpe decide to do is up to you, I personally dont think that it is a good thing for the general public to be watching. Not having a pop in any way its just what I think.

 

I have been invited stalking but I am afraid that vid has put me off!

[yds]

 

 

I have been invited stalking but I am afraid that vid has put me off!

well its better to know what you are in for its not such a shock when something goes wrong, and believe me it didn't there it was good bullet placement and performance on a deer which was unaware of us.

It is a sport which is not for everybody but the killing of the deer is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the "experience"

Edited May 30, 2012 by yds

[Blunderbust]

Blunderbust out of interest how many head and neck shots have you "missed" ?

 

Normally your posts are ok but this thread hasn't shown a lot of best practice just the fact you are happy with the elevated risks of wounding in a way you will not catch up with the beast. The simple thing with chest shots is they have a large room for error and that can be anything down to the animal moving at the last moment to an ammunition problem or a scope issue. No one can guarantee their placement 100% there are too many variables so though you claim to be worried about your quarry what you've posted so far suggests not. Deer can run simple fact on a chest shot but you shouldn't loose them, the same cannot be said for a botched head or neck shot.

 

a14x,

 

I can honestly say hand on heart that I have never missed on any occasion that I have taken the decision to shoot a beast in the head or neck. My assessment of the situation and shot placement is made after watching the beast for some time. Due to the fact that over the last 2 years the vast majority of my stalks are through woodlands or within 150 meters of woodlands, I am probably taking most of my Deer on or under the 80 meter mark, ranges in which I have no problem in using a head or neck shot.

 

I am not claiming to be the best shot ever and I am fully aware that I am human therefor mistakes can happen, but at these ranges I know that I am capable of accurately head or neck shooting a beast and dropping it on the spot. Do not get me wrong I do occasionally take them out at slightly longer ranges but in such situations unless I am shooting from the prone supported position I revert to the H+L placement.

 

On the other hand, if I have a beast at a shorter distance in woodlands that is browsing a high bush/branch I might also use the H+L placement depending on the height of the available back stop and of course in the unlikely event of me pulling a bad one and then having to take a quick follow up shot (not so easy in the woodlands).

 

A14x please believe me I do respect my quarry. I think that all types of Deer are fantastic beasts and they deserve only the best treatment from the stalker. That in my eyes is to grass them as efficiently, painlessly and with no or minimal disturbance to the beast prior to the trigger being pulled.

 

All the best :thumbs:

[andy198712]

RE the first vid.

 

your pointer sounds JUST like my vizsla when it whined

 

pure adrenaline on the deers behalf i recon

[yds]

a14x,

 

I can honestly say hand on heart that I have never missed on any occasion that I have taken the decision to shoot a beast in the head or neck. My assessment of the situation and shot placement is made after watching the beast for some time. Due to the fact that over the last 2 years the vast majority of my stalks are through woodlands or within 150 meters of woodlands, I am probably taking most of my Deer on or under the 80 meter mark, ranges in which I have no problem in using a head or neck shot.

 

I am not claiming to be the best shot ever and I am fully aware that I am human therefor mistakes can happen, but at these ranges I know that I am capable of accurately head or neck shooting a beast and dropping it on the spot. Do not get me wrong I do occasionally take them out at slightly longer ranges but in such situations unless I am shooting from the prone supported position I revert to the H+L placement.

 

On the other hand, if I have a beast at a shorter distance in woodlands that is browsing a high bush/branch I might also use the H+L placement depending on the height of the available back stop and of course in the unlikely event of me pulling a bad one and then having to take a quick follow up shot (not so easy in the woodlands).

 

A14x please believe me I do respect my quarry. I think that all types of Deer are fantastic beasts and they deserve only the best treatment from the stalker. That in my eyes is to grass them as efficiently, painlessly and with no or minimal disturbance to the beast prior to the trigger being pulled.

 

All the best :thumbs:

well good for you (and i mean it)

but if you carry on being honest has every necked and grassed deer been dead on arrival, have you never had one still blinking at you??

you have been lucky if you haven't.

and will you also agree its only a shot someone with your experience should be undertaking?

[Blunderbust]

Trust me i only watched it once! What you and other peolpe decide to do is up to you, I personally dont think that it is a good thing for the general public to be watching. Not having a pop in any way its just what I think.

 

I have been invited stalking but I am afraid that vid has put me off!

 

Ant8681,

 

Please don’t let this film put you off taking a chance to get out stalking. As yds has stated it was a well taken shot and nothing was done wrong or badly. This was a bonnie beast that was well fit and the adrenaline kicked in and he quite rightly wanted to hang on to life.

 

I must admit as I have said in previous posts that it was a long old time between the shot being taken and the buck hitting the grass and is not the norm but unfortunately can as it did in this situation happen. I can asure you no stalker wants any beast to suffer.

 

I do hope you reconsider and have a closer look at stalking as it is a wonderful experience and gets better every day you go out.

 

Regards

[yds]

RE the first vid.

 

your pointer sounds JUST like my vizsla when it whined

 

pure adrenaline on the deers behalf i recon

she rarely makes a sound though recently has whined once or twice after a shots been fired.

[Blunderbust]

well good for you (and i mean it)

but if you carry on being honest has every necked and grassed deer been dead on arrival, have you never had one still blinking at you??

you have been lucky if you haven't.

and will you also agree its only a shot someone with your experience should be undertaking?

 

yds,

 

I am sorry, please don't think I am ignoring you, it is just that I am away to do a couple of jobs then I will get back and reply to your latest post.

[Harnser]

Any deer found dead within 100 yards or so of the spot that it is shot is a clean kill .

 

Harnser .

[Guest Mr Pieman]

I love the Halal defence :-) The blood pressure drops, so no pain or suffering. I strongly disagree with the Halal slaughter ethic, but don't particularly disagree with Yrds!!!! Damn, I will die a hypocrite :angry: :angry: :angry:

[Harnser]

Any deer shot through the vitals with a .308 150 grain bullet will not suffer at all . This particular deer ran on for a while and then fell down and died . You could see in the video that the deer at the end of its run still had its head up and was looking around ,it didn't know that it had been shot . Its central nervous system gave out because of the trauma and it died . This is the real world and thats what happens to deer when you shoot them . If it bothers any body then deer shooting is not for you .

 

Harnser .

[Blunderbust]

well good for you (and i mean it)

but if you carry on being honest has every necked and grassed deer been dead on arrival, have you never had one still blinking at you??

you have been lucky if you haven't.

and will you also agree its only a shot someone with your experience should be undertaking?

 

yds,

 

Not wishing to have this go on much longer I will re-act to a few points that you have made and leave it with that.

 

At no time have I encouraged anyone to do as I do as you quite rightly say it is not for the novice shooter. I have been shooting for possibly 45 years, stalking on and off for 32 years and have served in the Uniformed Services for a combined time in total of 32 years, give or take a few days. I have specialised in weapons in the infantry for nearly 27 years. I think I can say that I am capable of making an informed decision as to where I will best place my shot to humanly kill my Deer.

 

I have and would never try to dis the Deer Best Practice Guides. Indeed I know that it is a very good publication. I do however know that a guide is just that and how in depth you wish to use it is up to each individual. Being a large hard covered folder I prefer to use it as a reference and leave it at home. I have my own opinions as to what is needed to allow me to continue in my sport and because of this I set about completing both my DSC L1+2 and completed them last year.

 

Your point about eye flicker from neck up shots is true for the neck I have on occasion seen this but can be sorted very quickly and the beast is of no danger to me once it is on the ground. I can't remember seeing this on a head shot.

 

Thank you for your input I have enjoyed the Banter as we Scots say, it is good to see the many sides of our sport. I hope your business continues to be fruitful and more importantly may it continue to be enjoyable. There is nothing more rewarding than working in one of your favourite pass times.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Blunderbust

[Sx3 clay breaker]

It looked a good shot I would of thought that would of only ran max 20 yrds if it was me I would done a follow up shot

 

Rgds sx3

[yds]

yds,

 

 

Your point about eye flicker from neck up shots is true for the neck I have on occasion seen this but can be sorted very quickly and the beast is of no danger to me once it is on the ground. I can't remember seeing this on a head shot.

Thank you for your honest input.

So can the deer can still be concious after a neck shot?

Now it takes you a while to walk up to it?

Can that animal be alive as long as the one here which ran after a lung shot?

So we are agreed the only drop dead everytime shot is to the head or atlas joint, but are also agreed it is not a shot for the inexperienced or at distance as there is a larger chance of wounding and little chance of follow up. Which is why "best practice" will not condone it on wild deer.

Its nothing to do with how yds reads it its the best thing (boiler house) for the deer under most circumstances with most marksmen/stalkers.

regards john

Edited May 31, 2012 by yds

[swiss.tony]

you have to wonder why you bother sometimes on here do things right you get slated do things wrongs you get crucified this inter net forum lark is getting more like Facebook every day just whining and whinging.

 

i no im sick of it the shot was good with a caliber more than enough for a roe with a guide with more than enough experiences under his belt to call for a second shot if need lets put this to bed mods

[Cranfield]

Its been a good thread so far , with people making fair points, clarification being given and questions answered.

 

I haven't noticed too much "whining and whinging".

 

Lets keep it that way.

[hedd-wyn]

Its been a good thread so far , with people making fair points, clarification being given and questions answered.

 

I haven't noticed too much "whining and whinging".

 

Lets keep it that way.

 

In fact, the only 'whining and whining' was on that particular thread, the word 'irony' springs to mind

[andrewluke]

It looked a good shot I would of thought that would of only ran max 20 yrds if it was me I would done a follow up shot

 

Rgds sx3

 

 

i agree,

 

 

andrew

[Blunderbust]

Thank you for your honest input.

So can the deer can still be concious after a neck shot?

Now it takes you a while to walk up to it?

Can that animal be alive as long as the one here which ran after a lung shot?

So we are agreed the only drop dead everytime shot is to the head or atlas joint, but are also agreed it is not a shot for the inexperienced or at distance as there is a larger chance of wounding and little chance of follow up. Which is why "best practice" will not condone it on wild deer.

Its nothing to do with how yds reads it its the best thing (boiler house) for the deer under most circumstances with most marksmen/stalkers.

regards john

 

John,

You are now becoming quite boring. Indeed you are being pedantic and if that is what you want, we can all do that. You conveniently turned the camera off before the Deer actually dropped. So no one actually knows how long it stood longer than the 45 seconds you filmed.

 

How long does it take me to walk up to it? I would probably be at my Beast buy the time yours hit the ground. When I shoot a Deer at 80 yards with a neck or head shot it drops where it was and it takes me very little time to get to it as I don't have to wait any length of time to let it bleed out in piece. If there is eye flicker then it is normally nerves as it cant be feeling pain due to its atlas joint being shattered. So I don't think you can bring that into the suffering context.

 

Now my turn to be pedantic, I agree the shot was fine however it was taken with a hedge line behind it and it does not matter what you say, the time you and the stalker took to get the firing position from when you were actually behind the hedge line as you say, would have been quite considerable. I do not believe you would have been going at a normal walking pace due to the fact you were stalking. So actually neither you nor the stalker had any idea what had moved in behind the beast when you asked him twice if he had a shot on where he was. Therefore you allowed him to take an unsafe shot and there is no disputing that. Your comment about the shot being down the hedge line is not true you can clearly see that the shot was taken at an angle where the round would have exited through the hedge. This is proven when you see the exit wound on the beast and consider how it was standing in conjunction to the hedge line.

 

If you want to continue to push best practice you should also tell your clients not to take the shot when the beast has its head over its back due to the dangers of wounding in that area. Always better to take the shot when the head is at its furthest point from the main target area e.g. head stretched out feeding or upright in the alert position.

 

I was not going to bring these points up but you continue to try and score Best Practice Points buy continuously asking me to answer questions just because I posted that I shoot Deer with head and neck shots and I am not complying with the Deer Best Practice Guide, its a guide not law. If it does become law then I will abide by it. I have never at any time encouraged others to do as I do, but still you keep pushing me to make statements like above "but are we also agreed it is not a shot for the inexperienced or at distance". What can you not understand with what I have written earlier, I have never encouraged others and never once mentioned distance shots?

 

I was hoping that I was now finished with this thread but see that it is now going to go on longer.

 

Regards,

 

Jimmy

Edited May 31, 2012 by Blunderbust

[njc110381]

I've had a couple of deer react to a shot like that before. It does cause a little concern at first but if you have seen that the shot has been placed well all you really need to do is wait.

 

Soldiers who have been shot often report a sharp burning sensation followed swiftly by numbing of the area. So the deer most likely feels a sharp pain which will make it jump and run but a pain which will then disappear and leave it wondering what the hell just happened. If the animal was really that stressed it wouldn't stop running until it fell but they often stop and look back trying to work out what's going on. With all the adrenaline I don't suppose they feel much pain at all, rather just trot around until they feel a bit odd and then they're out cold due to their blood pressure reaching a level that can't support them any longer.

 

I've neck shot deer and found them led unable to move but still fully functioning mentally. I don't like it I can tell you - how would you feel if you were suddenly unable to move and a predator was approaching? That's a whole different ball game because instead of being spooked but not knowing what's happening they get to watch you walk up to them and there's nothing they can do!

 

As far as the backstop is concerned this is my take on it. In the video it doesn't look good but as John has pointed out he was happy with the shot at the time. He was there and I'm pretty sure he's not going to risk his living on a shot that could have been left if it needed to be. It's often said that the camera never lies, but then again it rarely tells the whole truth either...

 

Nice video John - keep them coming!

[yds]

I've had a couple of deer react to a shot like that before. It does cause a little concern at first but if you have seen that the shot has been placed well all you really need to do is wait.

 

Soldiers who have been shot often report a sharp burning sensation followed swiftly by numbing of the area. So the deer most likely feels a sharp pain which will make it jump and run but a pain which will then disappear and leave it wondering what the hell just happened. If the animal was really that stressed it wouldn't stop running until it fell but they often stop and look back trying to work out what's going on. With all the adrenaline I don't suppose they feel much pain at all, rather just trot around until they feel a bit odd and then they're out cold due to their blood pressure reaching a level that can't support them any longer.

 

I've neck shot deer and found them led unable to move but still fully functioning mentally. I don't like it I can tell you - how would you feel if you were suddenly unable to move and a predator was approaching? That's a whole different ball game because instead of being spooked but not knowing what's happening they get to watch you walk up to them and there's nothing they can do!

 

As far as the backstop is concerned this is my take on it. In the video it doesn't look good but as John has pointed out he was happy with the shot at the time. He was there and I'm pretty sure he's not going to risk his living on a shot that could have been left if it needed to be. It's often said that the camera never lies, but then again it rarely tells the whole truth either...

 

Nice video John - keep them coming!

well I couldn't have put it better myself.

Other then to add the fields behind are wold land and average 60-100 acres even someone training for the olymipics couldn't appear behind the hedge and not spook that deer in the time it took and by along i mean at an angle as its 6ft wide. so at that angle probaby the bullet would travel 9ft before going into the worked arable field behind which would still be empty.