The height of stupidity and waste of tax payers money.

[anser2]

The height of stupidity and waste of tax payers money.

I can not believe that DEFRA is even considering chucking away tax payers money on catching and keeping wild buzzards in captivity and sanctioning destroying nests. If any shoot has a problem with buzzards its their own fault for not thinking properly about placing their release pens to minimise conflict with birds of prey and not undertaking scaring measures. I work on an estate that holds 8 pairs of buzzards and after 17 years of watching them almost every I have yet to see them take a game bird of any sort. I am not saying they never take game birds because they do , but buzzards make very little if any impact compared to the hundreds of thousands run over by cars every year. Yes they will feed on dead birds after a shoot and I was watching one feeding on a dead pheasant today on a N Norfolk estate where their pheasants have a disease ( probably due to over stocking and not shooting enough last winter ) and dozens have been picked up dead in recent days.

 

I have visited many buzzard nests and collected 100s of pellets. What did I find in them ? mainly mouse\ vole\shrew bones , remains of beetle wing cases , worm cheata and lots of young and 1\2 grown rabbits. Not a sniff of any game bird bones. Indeed the keepers on the next door estate have been putting out rabbit guts for the buzzards for years. If you watch your buzzards you will see them carrying prey up to well grown rabbits , but I would be very surprised if anyone can produce a photo of a buzzard carrying a game bird. The only birds I have seen them carrying are moorhen (2) and coot (1).

 

Buzzards are a natural part of our ecosystems , they belong here and it is only because of the past actions of game shooting interests that they were so rare in England away from the far southwest in the past 100 years.

[pegasus bridge]

its my understanding that DEFRA are only looking at it and are awaiting 'sound evidence' of loss before doing anything. Based on what you say - it does not look like they will get it

[gixer1]

I think you post suggests what should happen all over the uk based on what you see on YOUR estate....

 

I can assure you I have also spent time watching buzzards, and seen them perched above a release pen training thier young on dropping down and landing on pouts, this results in a pile of dead poults by the end of it.

 

The number of buzzards is now out of control in the area I am in (we observed eight in one two acre field not too long ago)

 

To say what they eat is again a geographical thing as they will eat what's available - if that's game birds then you will find that's what they eat.

 

Nobody wants to see all BOP dissapear but they should be controlled like anything else - its a similar thIng to the boar issue they have down south - people would que up to shoot those for the thrill of shooting a boar but any hook beaked flapper is seen as majestic and so people don't like the idea of them being controlled.

 

Regards,

Gixer

Edited May 27, 2012 by gixer1

[anser2]

My evidence is based on not just my local estate. I work with a number of keepers and my survey work takes mye to farms all over East Anglia.

 

You should never even allow buzzards into your release pen. Its easy enough to put a net cover so they cant get at the poults. Its not usualy adults , but the youngsters that are attracted to the movement in the pen. Try a few flash harries stationed next to the pen , CD discs are very effected strung about the pen and close by and the buzzards will keep their distance. Its not just the release pen you should be thinking of , what cover are you providing for your birds once they leave the release pen. It may be more profitable to spend less on rearing birds and more on the farm habitat. There is an estate in mid Norfolk where they have stopped most rearing ( just hatching a few dozzen nests under hens , saved from dangerious positions) and spent a lot of cash , via ELS and HLS govenment grants on habitat restoration. The estate holds 8 pairs of buzzard , 3 pairs of marsh harriers and an assortment of kestrels, hobby and sparrowhawks and yet are still able to produce 14 days shooting a year with bags up to 400 birds a day plus a couple of days grey partridge shooting.

 

 

In my area there a number of big game shoots that rear poults and none of them ever complain about losses from common buzzards predation though a few have had a problem where the poults have panicked when a buzzard flys overhead and the poults have run into a corner. There are plenty of pheasants in my area and while I would not say buzzards never take a game bird its a very rare event that I have never witnessed. I would like someone to produce a photo of a buzzard carrying a dead pheasant as its something I have never witness despite the abundance of game in my area. One of a buzzard on a dead pheasant on the ground does not count as my local birds often scavenge road kills and birds lost on shoot days, so there is no proof it was the buzzard killed the pheasant.

 

 

Any keeper worth his salt has no need to control buzzards. In the unlikely event of an odd loss its a tiny percentage of the number killed by cars. But nobody is suggesting controling cars. I could show you streach of road where dozens of adult pheasants are killed every year ( up to 50 at any one time ). The BTO did a survey covering several hundred miles of Norfolk minor country roads and found a dead pheasant on average every 5 yards during the course of a year. Remember the buzzards were here before your pheasants and have a much higher claim to the British countryside than introduced pheasants.

 

The other thing about controling birds of prey is the average shooter cant tell the difference between common buzzard , rough legged buzzard or a honey buzzard ( an insect feeder ). Not that there is any shame in that , it can be very difficult to split the species at times when watching them through a telescope let alone with the naked eye down the barrel of a gun. The shooting community must hang its head in shame for what our fathers did to the birds of prey in this country and there can never be any reason to go back to the old ways. If the worst comes to the worst just rear a few extra poults to replace any supposed losses.

Edited May 27, 2012 by anser2

[Taffyshooter]

Never had a problem with the 3 pairs of buzzards on my own shoot - one was hanging around one of the release pens a few years back so i kept an eye on him. Turns out I had a rat problem there which came to Mr Buzzards attention before mine . We do loose a small number of poults to female sparrowhawks, but compared to crows, foxes, mink, disease, road casualties etc. its small beer.

[al4x]

Its interesting your Norfolk Keepers like Buzzards Anser as I'm yet to find one round here that does. Fortunately here the Kites seem to see them off so we just have them to upset everything.

[Piebob]

its my understanding that DEFRA are only looking at it and are awaiting 'sound evidence' of loss before doing anything. Based on what you say - it does not look like they will get it

 

I thought that early investigations had already shown that some English estates were losing up to 30 % of their birds to buzzards, and that was why DEFRA started the study. I don't know if there are any figures for Scotland.

[Taffyshooter]

I thought that early investigations had already shown that some English estates were losing up to 30 % of their birds to buzzards, and that was why DEFRA started the study. I don't know if there are any figures for Scotland.

 

I read on another site that it was one estate in Northhamptonshire that "claimed" it was losing 30% to buzzards which prompted DEFRA to start this study. I googled some more info on this topic and found actual BASC studies putting the averge figure closer to 1-2%(with the worst shoot in the sample being 5%). Those figures include losses from all raptors species, not just buzzards.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Taffyshooter

[CharlieT]

Anser2

 

I see you are on your old, blind, hobby horse yet again. You really do live in a fairytale world.

 

However, I have to agree with you on DEFRA's unnecessary waste of money, they could quite easily have saved an awful lot of money by giving those that suffer losses authority to shoot them on sight.

[nipper]

You have made some bold observations on your post!

"Any keeper worth his salt" "putting a release pen where there are buzzards".

 

You are obviously NOT a keeper and your understanding of where we site release pens

 

(If any shoot has a problem with buzzards its their own fault for not thinking properly about placing their release pens to minimise conflict with birds of prey)

 

 

lacking as well.

 

This made me realy laugh!

 

(just hatching a few dozzen nests under hens , saved from dangerious positions) and spent a lot of cash , via ELS and HLS govenment grants on habitat restoration. The estate holds 8 pairs of buzzard , 3 pairs of marsh harriers and an assortment of kestrels, hobby and sparrowhawks and yet are still able to produce 14 days shooting a year with bags up to 400 birds a day plus a couple of days grey partridge shooting.)

 

14 days up to 400 birds? plus two partridge days from a few nests under banties???

 

After reading your post I am afraid to say your credibility has ran down your leg and is puddled about your feet right now.

 

I would have taken a decent debate seriously! But not this.

[linny]

ok

[Albertan_J]

Anser you can come up to Durham and take our buzzards down Norfolk to live on your 'estate' where they can live in happiness eating dead birds and of course some of the magic mushrooms you must be on.

[anser2]

Charley I do not live in what you call a fairyland , I live every day with buzzards watching them hunt , recording breeding behaviour liasing with local gamekeepers and I repeat I can see no real problem with buzzards other than some seem to want to use them to blame for bad game management. I was at a shoot not so long ago while the keeper accepted the presence was not a real problem , but his father a keeper of the old school seemed to have a hatred of all birds of prey and blamed the buzzards for a recent pheasant decline on the shoot. Closer investigation showed that the real problem was gape worms. The shoot had been over stocked last year and took many birds remained on the ground after the season. Coupled with the recent wet conditions the gape worms had so weakened the pheasants that they were being lost by the dozen. Because the old keeper had disturbed a buzzard off a couple of dead birds they were getting the blame for the losses , but in reality the real problem was disease and the buzzards were just clearing up the carcases.

 

Now Charley its you living in fairyland if you think you should shoot buzzards. Tell me how you are going to tell the difference between a honey buzzard ( an insect feeder ) and a common buzzard . There are raptors that can cause serious problems with gamebirds , ie , goshawks , but the common buzzard is not one of them in my experiance.

Edited May 28, 2012 by anser2

[artschool]

while we are on the topic can we bring back wolves and other predators to the uk? they were here before us and have a claim to the British countryside. if the worst comes to the worst and they eat a few humans, well there's lots of us and we can just rear some more

[anser2]

Nipper I have been shooting game for the past 45 years , and reared small numbers on my own shoot , and while its true I am not a professional gamebird keeper , but I have been a wildfowl keeper between 1978 and 90 rearing thousands of wild ducks and also rearing and releasing thousands of mallard for my own and a wildfowling clubs marsh. So it could be said I have a little understanding of what gamekeepering intails. For the past 17 years I have a major part of my job has been dealing with raptors and liasing with local keepers to minimising problems. In addition I am involved with farmland grants for habitat management so it could be said that I do have an understanding of the supposed problem of gamebirds and raptors. As for the numbers of wild game shot on the estate in question. I never suggested the handful had much impact on the bags. It’s a wild bird shoot covering 14,000 acres ( 3 keepers )of mainly arable ground with a large area of marshland along a river valley plus extensive woodland.

 

On the estate in question a few miles south of my own they do not shoot 400 bird bags every day , but they do have 2 days that are expected to exceed that number and they aim to exceed 100 for the other days. The important thing is the estate favours gamebirds with an abundance of cover both natural and in the form of HLS cover strips. The partridge beats all have beetle banks and the amount of tree cover is kept to a minimum to limit problems with crows on the partridge beats. Of course the total bag each year will depend on the spring weather.

 

Finally this in Norfolk , a county that is alive with pheasants and in recent years buzzards.

 

Nipper if you are having a buzzard problem do you take any steps to safeguard your birds .

Edited May 28, 2012 by anser2

[nipper]

(Nipper if you are having a buzzard problem do you take any steps to safeguard your birds .)

 

My opinion of your post still stands!

 

As for safeguarding my poults, there is only one way to do that and unfortunately its ILLEGAL!

So it doesnt happen here.

 

All the other methods are pointless with the amount of BOP,s we are talking about.Plus the fact that all the other methods are reccomended by people who are not directly affected by the damage they cause.So it doesnt matter if the method fails.

 

Any keeper worth his salt! To quote your own words. Would recognise GAPES in a heartbeat and treat accordingly. Gapes is not a disease its a parasite and easily treated.

 

If you study birds to the degree you say you do?

What would be your idea of a natural density of buzzards per acre be?? and what would you consider excessive.

 

Birds of Prey ,are worth far to much MONEY for the RSPB to ignore.Together with the Red kites and Sea eagles they are the "CASH COW" that rakes in millions from Joe public every year££££££. As long as that happens and the PR machine keeps up the pressure,things wont change untill its too late and the damage has been done to the countryside for EVER!

 

Untill then you will have to just keep telling us that Buzzards are "nice birds " and dont do any REAL damage.

[CharlieT]

Nipper

 

Excellent post, I totally agree.

 

Every year, around this time, Mr Anser2 spouts this drivel. He is so blinkered in his view I will no longer discuss the matter with him. He is to the Buzzard what Bill Oddie is to the Fox.

[spanj]

Nipper

 

Excellent post, I totally agree.

 

Every year, around this time, Mr Anser2 spouts this drivel. He is so blinkered in his view I will no longer discuss the matter with him. He is to the Buzzard what Bill Oddie is to the Fox.

 

 

Dont forget chard...... surprised he hasnt popped up too

[poontang]

Dont forget chard...... surprised he hasnt popped up too

 

He's probably reading this and having a good giggle.

 

 

http://www.rspb.org.uk/news/315871-the-public-steps-up-for-buzzards?utm_medium=website&utm_source=facebook&utm_content=buzzards&utm_campaign=buzzards

[al4x]

He's probably reading this and having a good giggle.

 

 

http://www.rspb.org.uk/news/315871-the-public-steps-up-for-buzzards?utm_medium=website&utm_source=facebook&utm_content=buzzards&utm_campaign=buzzards

 

 

With Fisherman Mike

 

we really need a Twitchers corner on here for those that like to look rather than shoot.

 

To my mind the issue is if no one will help keepers then what other choices do they have other than feed their birds to these BOP or take the matter into their own hands. Poisoning them is entirely stupid but you do hear rumours in the shooting world of people having more losses due to them than foxes, when its your livelihood at risk and you get no help you can understand why they would be tempted to shoot them with rifles in the early hours on the ground. No one would condone it but you'd definitely understand it.

[Paul223]

 

To my mind the issue is if no one will help keepers then what other choices do they have other than feed their birds to these BOP or take the matter into their own hands. Poisoning them is entirely stupid but you do hear rumours in the shooting world of people having more losses due to them than foxes, when its your livelihood at risk and you get no help you can understand why they would be tempted to shoot them with rifles in the early hours on the ground. No one would condone it but you'd definitely understand it.

 

Indeed, same goes for dairy farmers / badgers it's all one sided rather than being balanced

 

well have a trail cam up on our pens this year be interesting to see what we find

[al4x]

Interestingly all sorts of people have come out and complained about the cancellation CA has a press release on it so has the NGO nothing from BASC yet.

[anser2]

Probably because the BASC has a better balanced view than the loony right CA. And I guess CharleyT statement that he will not answer is that he realises that its so difficult to tell the two species apart that he knows that for the average keeper or birdwatcher its almost impossible. There is an estate close to me that had both species present and though the keeper is knowleagable he had no idea honey buzzards were present. And its not just the keeper, the honey buzzards are just a mile from a major National Nature reserve that attracts 10s of thousands of birdwatchers every year and yet nobody has picked up the honey buzzards in the past two years. Any sugestion that we start shooting common buzzards would put these rare birds at risk.

 

I would call the bluff of any keeper who claims he is losing 30% of his pheasants to raptors to prove it with independant monitoring of his birds. Where this has been done the losses have been proved to be closer to 1-5% . A fraction of what are killed on the road. The trouble is that some on here have a fixed opinion of what is what in the countryside handed down fron past generations and are unable to grasp the modern picture. And i should add here I have lived or worked in the countryside for almost all my life ( since 1962 ).

 

So come on CharleyT and Alex produce the proof that buzzards are such a problem by getting an independant monitor in this spring to see what is happening to your birds. Can any of you produce a photo a common buzzard carrying pheasants back to their nest i wonder. Or is what you saying just hearsay.

 

Its time the shooting community woke up to the fact that this is no longer a Victorian society , today the public has a strong opinion and influence in what goes on in the countryside , after all its their taxes that keep much of it afloat. If the balance of that opinion goes the wrong way and our shooting days will be numbered. The public likes raptors so we are just going to live with that and work around it.

Edited June 3, 2012 by anser2

[anser2]

Al4x Quote "we really need a Twitchers corner on here for those that like to look rather than shoot."

 

I think that just about summs up a killer mind rather than a sportsmans mentality. My primary sport is wildfowling though I also shoot game and pigeons and if you do not look and study your quarry how are you going to ever understand it.

 

Some of the best days I have ever spent in the field have been times when the wildlife have stolen the day rather than the quarry. Like the moonlit night 2 miles out on the Wash muds when a thousand bewicks swans arrived infront of a cold spell comming from Holland and I had to creep away for fear of disturbing them , or a day a seal looked over the side of the gun punt I was stalking a flock of teal in or the sight of a pair of fighting fallow bucks just yards away from my pigeon hide or the woodcock that landed beside me during a pheasant drive or perhaps just watching a Broadland sunrise on the first morning of the season. If you count the success of your day in just the size of your bag i feel sorry for you.

 

Yes i like to bag a few birds when i am out , but killing is by no means the most inportant part of the day.

Edited June 3, 2012 by anser2

[anser2]

George , You are right in that they were uncommon , common buzzards only bred in Norfolk for the first time 25 years ago , but its a very different story in Norfolk today the common buzzard population has soared. A recent winter survey in the 10km square TG found 262 individual birds. They are still fairly uncommon in SE Norfolk ( though increasing fast ) , but for the remainder of the county we probably have well in excess of 500 breeding pairs ( and do not go by the published numbers in NBR , its well out of date ). I spend a lot of time following up honey buzzards across the county and away from the SE I find common buzzards in almost every wood over 30 acres and a lot in smaller woods.

 

I am not putting other peoples findings down , just asking them to prove they are not hearsay. If you have been around keepers for any length of time then like me you will have found they will use all sorts of excuses to account for a lack of game , from dog walkers , RAF helicopters , predators or the weather to name a few , some of which may well be valid , but not in every case. I used the same excuses myself when I was rearing birds.

 

Perhaps i should point out here I am constantly defending shooting and keepers to birdwatchers and conservation bodies by pointing out the way raptors having increased in East Anglia in recent years despite being in the main game shooting area of the country. Yes there is the odd bad apple controling them against the law , but the success of these birds shows its not a raptor conservation problem. But the proposed removal or shooting of buzzards is a very different story.

Edited June 3, 2012 by anser2