The height of stupidity and waste of tax payers money.

[Chard]

Dont forget chard...... surprised he hasnt popped up too

 

There's no point in going over the same ****.

 

All that's happened is that the majority opinion has prevailed. Nobody is interested in your minority (financial) interest in the matter.

 

It will change nothing of course. The illegal persecution will continue.

My son brought a case to my attention in Kent the other week. No proof conveniently, just a shot Buzzard carcass.

[spanj]

There's no point in going over the same ****.

 

All that's happened is that the majority opinion has prevailed. Nobody is interested in your minority (financial) interest in the matter.

 

It will change nothing of course. The illegal persecution will continue.

My son brought a case to my attention in Kent the other week. No proof conveniently, just a shot Buzzard carcass.

 

An interesting comment...... minority. Isn't that what we all are as fieldsportsmen ?

 

FYI, I have no financial interest in "the" matter. I just do not like condescending attitudes and the sort of campaigning undertaken by various persons and organisations who have not thought "the matter" through to its conclusion i.e balance and ongoing management. I find your attitude a little supercilious too. I'd like to see a photo posted of the "shot buzzard carcass" otherwise please stop bandying about what could be seen as an anecdotal story. As I have said previously, I have never and would never shoot, poison or trap a buzzard like most responsible fieldsportsmen and if you have evidence of any one who has then this must be reported to the police.

[Chard]

if you have evidence of any one who has then this must be reported to the police.

 

It has been reported

[CharlieT]

Anser2

 

No amount of research, or evidence would or will change your mind.

 

However, I believe what my eyes see and that is Buzzards taking pheasants, day in day out. It's not up for debate and only a fool or someone with an agenda would suggest it did not happen.

 

Heartbreaking though it is, to see all the hard work and stockmanship that has gone into rearing birds destroyed by Buzzard predation, there is nothing one can do about it other than to pass the cost on.

 

You should be really thankful for and grateful to keepers and shoots for providing the food source that has enabled this truly magnificent bird to flourish and reach such unprecedented numbers rather than continually berate them.

[nipper]

There's not much point in telling these people the facts because they have their own agenda!

 

So many of them are being brainwashed by the PC correct,going green,save the world brigade that they cant see that conservation has been going on for longer than they have been alive.By the very people they want to stop!Yet they think they are something new and unique.

But of course they think they can do a better job ?(but only if you give them your MONEY!)

 

Most of them are the same people who preach to us on a regular basis....make sure everyone hears them when they say "Oh! I give MONEY to this and that animal charity" in front of their PC friends.

 

Yet these same concerned citizens ? when they are late for work , will run down ANYTHING on the road without a second glance!

 

One word you never hear them say is COMPROMISE! They want it all their own way.That way they can be full of their own importance and puff their chests out.

I have told this story before.I was talking to a birdwatcher a while ago and made a comment about birdwatchers in general.

He looked shocked and came back with," I'm not a birdwatcher,I'm in the Raptor group!". LOLOL

They do think they are rather special in the wee clique they have set up and will see everyone of us go to the wall before they give an inch! So compromise simply will not come into it.

 

Make NO mistake gentlemen,these people will use all methods fair AND FOUL to maintain their position's of importance.

 

Underhand tactics and dirty tricks are all in their tool box to be used,and will be used.

 

Enough said!

[anser2]

On the contrary I have a very open mind on the matter of raptors , but I can only report on 17 years of watching them I have yet to see them take a game bird.

 

By nature I am a countryman , by training an ecologist , by work a reserve warden and researcher. In my line of work I meet all sorts of people from your extreme point of view to bird watchers who would have shooting banned tomorow if they had there way. At the moment I am having a similar debate on the Bird Forum with some bird watchers who take the opposite view and I find myself defending game rearing as a conservation tool to protect our countryside from the damaging effects of modern farming. There has to be a middle ground when the shooting community accepts that some of its ideas ( raptor control ) is a way out of date way of tackling any problems on the one hand and the bird watching community accepting that game shooting has made a valuable contribution to our wildlife. If this middle ground is not found the shooting we enjoy today will not be available to our grandchildren of tomorrow as it will be banned. And harping on about raptor control only brings that day closer.

 

To the anti shooting lobby I say unless you are prepared to put your hand in your pocket be glad that game shooting is helping to preserve our countryside and to the shooting lobby I say this . Think of how the public views what we are doing and unless we are prepared to accommodate raptors and think about the ethics of shooting large bags our future is very bleak.

Though I expect charley you will dismiss this as drivel.

 

 

I was watching a pair of common buzzards for about 6 hours today nesting in a mixed plantation with abundant game in the area. The male made 14 feeding flights returning with 5 voles\ mice , 1 small rabbit and 8 very small items most probably beetles . Within 50 yards of the nest there were 2 broods of pheasants that were ignored. The female remained at the nest all day brooding the young in the very cold conditions. During the day I logged 93 buzzard sightings with a max of 12 in the air at any one time and several were carrying prey and though most of these birds were too distant to id the prey those that came close enough to see were carrying young rabbits and mice\voles. What I did see a few days ago was a kestrel take a couple of pheasant chicks so I expect you will want to shoot those too CharleyT.

 

If you are seeing buzzards taking pheasants day after day then it should a simple matter to get a photo of a buzzard carrying one back to the nest.

 

Can I ask you what buzzard protection measures your keeper takes ? How can any one describe a pheasant as magnificent and yet have such a dislike of birds of prey ? Yes a pheasant is a fine bird that gives us a lot of fun , but as an introduced species that does not give it any more rights in the countryside than a native British bird be it a buzzard or woodcock. Before anyone suggests I am a buzzard lover , I am not , they come way down my list of favourite birds with grey partridge and pintail being at the top.

 

I would suggest with 40 million pheasants released every year there should be more than enough for the odd buzzard if its causing a problem and for a shooter to bag a few.

 

And CharleyT you have still not said how the majority of shooters can tell the difference between the various types of buzzard if ever common buzzard was put on the shooting list. Or perhaps you do not care if any of the rare species get shot as long as the pheasants are preserved for you day on the peg.

Edited June 4, 2012 by anser2

[nipper]

There is no reason to believe you lie about the things you have seen.So we have to take you at face value and believe what you say.

 

So why can't you believe and what Keepers are telling you?

 

 

 

You tell me what I am supposed to do when I get to a release pen and there is a family of young buzzards in the pen and they cant fly out again because they are so full of meat!But they have managed to scare a lot of poults over the wire to be picked off at leisure by any predator that comes along. I have 8 pens and I have buzzards in each of the pens nearly every time I go.Its totally impractical to net the pens and regardless of where the pens were placed there would be buzzards.

 

 

 

The old fasioned ways would be to Kill-em-all.NO-ONE has said thats what they want!

 

But if there was licensed control for a limited time period,that would solve the problem and wouldnt even dent the buzzard population.

 

But thats not going to happen because we don't have a problem of course!

[anser2]

Nipper the easy answer is to never let the buzzards into your release pens in the first place. Cover the tops with netting and your problem should be solved. If the pens are too big , build some new ones that can be covered. Resighting the release pens would also reduce the problem to an more open area with fewer trees for the buzzards to sit in or siteing the pens where there is fairly frequent human activity.

 

In addition hang a few CD discs around the pen on strings so they twirl in the wind. Buzzards hate them , but remember you will have to move them around from time to time of the birds will get used to them. Raptors like most birds are wary of change. I have one farmer on my shoot who is constantly varying his pigeon scaring methods and moveing them around. Its a waste of time trying to shoot pigeons on his farm. Another farmer on the shoot just sticks the scarers up and leaves them on the rape all winter. Result the pigeons get used to them and in time ignore them. Buzzard scaring is the same. The one thing buzzards are not scared of is the sound of a gun , indeed they seem attracted by it . In the past they have probably scavenaged lost game after a shoot. So a shot could mean a free meal.

 

As I have already said shooting is not an option even under licence , because it is very difficult to tell the three species of buzzard apart. The other two species have a popultion of less than 100 in this country so even the loss of a couple of honey would be a serious threat to their survival in this country.

Edited June 6, 2012 by anser2

[nipper]

Once again you have not acknowledged any of the points put to you in a manner that shows you have any experience of modern pheasant rearing and release.

 

Your ideas and solutions to the problem are at best,a true belief that you have (but they come from a position of ignorance)

Your ideas at worst,come from the disregard and total disrespect of many many people who's jobs,houses,wages and families are Dependant on an honest living in the real countryside.

 

 

You will not answer any direct questions put to you!(you or any other "expert"? that I have talked to). But you all sound the same and come away with the same scripted answers that avoid the issue.

 

You may persuade some people from the middle of a block of flats somewhere that your ideas are the right ones?

But anyone who works in the countryside will know they are the standard standby answers that dont actually work.

 

 

At first I thought you were going to be quite knowledgable and we could have had a decent debate at least?

Thats not the case ,so I wont be answering this post again.(there's no point !)

[CharlieT]

so I wont be answering this post again.(there's no point !)

 

Which is why I have given up with the guy and refuse to get into further dialogue with him.

You can only have a true discussion when both sides have open minds and are willing to appreciate and acknowledge the others point of view. A principal foreign this gentleman.

[markbjones01]

Thought provoking discussion,

 

Ive been shooting for well over 30 years and have always lived in the countryside. On the shoot i help out on there are a large number of buzzards and quite a few red kites. Last year whilst feeding the poults i did witness a buzzard departing with a poult wether it killed it or indeed it was already dead i will know not (id lost a half a dozen that day to gapes)out of one of the pens.

 

I put cd's on dispaly and also bought several little radios and had radio 4 ( so there was a constant stream ofhuman voices) i believe this really helped aas i havnt seen anymore entering the pens.and losses remained relatively low.

 

In hampshire at the moment the rabbit population has soared over recent years and i believe this, not the pheasants has been a major factor in the buzzrds growth. Just the other day at the bottom of my garden i saw a buzzard land on a full grown rabbit fly upwards with it whilst the rabbit was still screaming and kicking untill it was about 20 foot of the ground whereby the buzzard let it go, and all this was withing 20 yards of a feeding pheasant.

 

I'm an ardent believer in predator control and habbitat management but i for one have no wish and will never target raptors, but motorist who take delight in running pheasants and partridge over ........

[scolopax]

I speak to a few keepers and the opinions of Buzzards are all the same, not killers but scarers. May occasionally take the odd poult but in relation to the number of buzzards and the numbers of poults it is small beer. Yes they are concerned by them, yes they would prefer them not to be there (well not in big numbers), but do they decimate poults - no.

 

Now Goshawks, very rare hereabouts, but when they put in an appearance the damage they do is completely disproportionate to the amount of goshawks. They will take adults, they will mass kill poults, they will hammer game and scare the living daylights out of the survivors. Thats the feedback I get from the keepers I speak to. Gladly most gos locally are just transients.

 

Sparrowhawks - much more common than gos of course, hated by keepers of both reared and wild partridge. Do not mass kill but that is about the only good thing that can be said about them. Recent GWCT research showed that on an estate with excellent habitat for wild grey partridge (abundant food and cover) hen sprawks took between 30 and 60% (!!!) of grey part between Feb and May!!

 

So in summary, buzzards get a bad rap.

[Chard]

Goshawks, they will mass kill poults

 

Behave yourself.....

[anser2]

Nipper what the hl are you talking about. I have given you some answers to you questions direct just read the post , ie cover release pen , CD discs , move the release pens ect. Are you blind ! Or is it that I do not provide the answer you want !

 

There is no reason for you to lose any poults if you cover the release pen. The buzzards will not be able to get at them. You say its not possible . Why. Cost I suspect. Well look at it as a long term investment. If it means rearing a few less pheasants for a few years while the costs are covered , the long term benifits will be worth it.

 

Yes its your livelihood , game keepering , but many of us have a livelihood that we have to adapt to the law and the wishes of the majority. In my job there are many things I do not agree with ( public access for one ) , but I just have to put up with it and make the best of the situation and minimise any potential damage. I have made it clear that I have a very open mind on the subject of buzzard problems . recognise they do take a few pheasants ( though I have not seen it ) , but I do not see them as a major threat to pheasants like a number of other keepers and shooters on this post. I say again I live in a county with wall to wall game shoots , buzzards and also full of game. And very few gripes from the game keepers.

 

Nipper ask yourself what is the cause of most of your game losses , road kill , foxes , wandering birds , lose dogs , buzzards or so on. Come on hand on heart I am sure buzzards are not going to be your number one cause of losses.

 

I put it to you and CharleyT that it is you who have a closed mind on the subject of raptor problems. The only answer CharleyT seems to want is to be able to shoot buzzards.

 

And Charley I am still waiting for your answer how you are going to tell common buzzards from other species or is your silence a recognition that it is difficult to separate them from other raptors such as the insect feeding honey buzzard.

 

TALK ABOUT CLOSED MINDS ! just read your own posts.

 

 

If there ia any delay in answering sorry i am away from my computer for a few days working on a Suffolk farm with plenty of wild pheasants and buzzards.

Edited June 8, 2012 by anser2

[smig4373]

Nipper the easy answer is to never let the buzzards into your release pens in the first place. Cover the tops with netting and your problem should be solved. If the pens are too big , build some new ones that can be covered. Resighting the release pens would also reduce the problem to an more open area with fewer trees for the buzzards to sit in or siteing the pens where there is fairly frequent human activity.

 

In addition hang a few CD discs around the pen on strings so they twirl in the wind. Buzzards hate them , but remember you will have to move them around from time to time of the birds will get used to them. Raptors like most birds are wary of change. I have one farmer on my shoot who is constantly varying his pigeon scaring methods and moveing them around. Its a waste of time trying to shoot pigeons on his farm.Why Another farmer on the shoot just sticks the scarers up and leaves them on the rape all winter. Result the pigeons get used to them and in time ignore them. Buzzard scaring is the same. The one thing buzzards are not scared of is the sound of a gun ,indeed they seem attracted by it . In the past they have probably scavenaged lost game after a shoot. So a shot could mean a free meal.

 

As I have already said shooting is not an option even under licence , because it is very difficult to tell the three species of buzzard apart.The other two species have a popultion of less than 100 in this country. The chance of shooting 1 by mistake is minuscule then so even the loss of a couple of honey would be a serious threat to their survival in this country.

 

Why can you get a license to control Cormarants (est 100,000 birds in uk)...but not buzzards..(3/500,000 and rising fast)..

 

Before i get berrated...im just asking...buzzards dont hassle our poults....yet..

Edited June 8, 2012 by smig4373

[David BASC]

On a personal note, I look after two of the four release pens on a shoot in Cheshire.

 

Its rare for me to be on the shoot at any time of year and not see buzzards (plural) overhead.

 

We use CDs in the pens and give the birds plenty of cover.

 

We have yet to see any significant loss at all through predation, be it by avian or ground based predators.

 

But the buzzards must be feeding on something, but they are not getting far on our pheasants.

 

David

Edited June 8, 2012 by David BASC

[Salopian]

Three years ago I lost 26 poults in 6 weeks from one pen to what I believe was buzzard predation despite having CD's hanging up and Owl dummies, Owl face posters and a radio playing constantly. That was to what I believe was one pair of Buzzards and feeding their young and training them.

Last year I observed 32 buzzards circling on one drive. This number or very near is now a regular sight around the Welshpool area.

[Grandalf]

The only way you are going to solve this slanging match is for one of you badly affected keepers to invite anser2 to come and visit your shoot and do a scientific study of your raptors.

He's a scientist - He'll come if he's any good.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Grandalf

[nipper]

Nipper what the hl are you talking about. I have given you some answers to you questions direct just read the post , ie cover release pen , CD discs , move the release pens etc. Are you blind ! Or is it that I do not provide the answer you want !

 

There is no reason for you to lose any poults if you cover the release pen. The buzzards will not be able to get at them. You say its not possible . Why. Cost I suspect. Well look at it as a long term investment. If it means rearing a few less pheasants for a few years while the costs are covered , the long term benefits will be worth it.

 

Yes its your livelihood , game keepering , but many of us have a livelihood that we have to adapt to the law and the wishes of the majority. In my job there are many things I do not agree with ( public access for one ) , but I just have to put up with it and make the best of the situation and minimize any potential damage. I have made it clear that I have a very open mind on the subject of buzzard problems . recognize they do take a few pheasants ( though I have not seen it ) , but I do not see them as a major threat to pheasants like a number of other keepers and shooters on this post. I say again I live in a county with wall to wall game shoots , buzzards and also full of game. And very few gripes from the game keepers.

 

Nipper ask yourself what is the cause of most of your game losses , road kill , foxes , wandering birds , lose dogs , buzzards or so on. Come on hand on heart I am sure buzzards are not going to be your number one cause of losses.

 

I put it to you and CharleyT that it is you who have a closed mind on the subject of raptor problems. The only answer CharleyT seems to want is to be able to shoot buzzards.

 

And Charley I am still waiting for your answer how you are going to tell common buzzards from other species or is your silence a recognition that it is difficult to separate them from other raptors such as the insect feeding honey buzzard.

 

TALK ABOUT CLOSED MINDS ! just read your own posts.

 

 

If there ia any delay in answering sorry i am away from my computer for a few days working on a Suffolk farm with plenty of wild pheasants and buzzards.

 

I wasn't going to reply,but you cant seem to grasp reality!

Cover the release pen?..... How do you expect to do that in a 30 year old plantation.The sides of the pen are 150 yards 150 yards,providing 1/3 cover 1/3 sun and 1/3 roosting trees.

 

Nothing to do with cost! Like I said "NOT PRACTICAL".

 

If I had somewhere else to put that pen I would! But I dont.

The year we had a Red kite release as well,I counted 19 BOP's coming off the trees beside the pen .The Buzzards had been killing and the Red kites were waiting to clean up the mess.

 

You say things like "Its easy" or "The easy way to do it". When you make a statement like that you belittle the guy who has a problem and has to deal with it somehow?

You have NEVER had the problems I have on my ground,So how can you possibly tell me its an easy fix?

 

"but I do not see them as a major threat to pheasants like a number of other keepers and shooters on this post"

 

 

I accept the fact that you and others on the post dont see it as a problem!That doesn't mean it isn't there!

 

Which means it looks like a local problem in certain areas.

Those are the areas that need a license ,which also means even less of a dent in the buzzard population!!

As for Honey buzzards,If you google it you will see that there are not many breeding birds in the UK,but are monitored very closely and the locations kept secret.

SIMPLE!

Those areas dont get a license ! perfectly acceptable reason. And the other 1,000,000 honey buzzards around Europe can breath a sigh of relief.

 

"Come on hand on heart I am sure buzzards are not going to be your number one cause of losses."

 

I dont actually know the number of poults that buzzards are responsible for! When I get to a pen and there are three or four young buzzards diving on anything that moves and scaring countless others out of the pen to get away from them.They might kill 10 directly that morning,but of the others only a few will find there way back in especially in the early days.

Those others will be stressed ,hungry and starve in a very short time.If they have been forced into standing crops it a disaster if the tram lines are heading away from the pen!

Constant harassing brings on disease etc etc etc ,so this is more than just an odd poult being killed.But unless you actually work with them all the time you can not understand how difficult it is. You might think you can ,but unless you are face to face with it every day you cannot realy understand what impact they have on the WHOLE picture.

 

Foxes I can deal with!

Other BOP's and the odd kill I can put up with.

Road kills ,Dogs,Mountain bikers,Tree huggers, Grannies, and twitchers I can do something about.

 

But Buzzards are not on my Christmas list!

 

 

You know yourself,that once they find a food source they will keep coming back.

Its an artificial food source,which attracts an artificially high buzzard population to feed on it .In this man made countryside we need a man made answer.The only people professional enough to do it would be todays MODERN Gamekeepers.(Yes I know there are bad apples in EVERY profession,so dont start on that one!).

 

 

And to finish with .

I have done the CD,radio,flashing lights,bags,scarecrows etc and they proved very very limited in the effect they had.

Edited June 8, 2012 by nipper

[CharlieT]

Right, lets get this straight. I rather like to see Buzzards about, I have said before that BOP are a wonderful sight and I am fortunate that on our farm, in any one year, one can see Buzzard, Kestrel, Sparrowhawk, Peregrine, Red Kite, Hen Harrier and Hobby. Not forgetting Barn, Tawney and Little Owls. They are all welcome and I do not begrudge any of them the odd poult if that is what it takes to keep them on the farm, I just love to see them.

 

I do not shoot Buzzards, I do not and have never suggested that Buzzards should be shot on sight. What I would welcome though is the ability, via license, to be able to cull specific Buzzards that, despite all endeavours, persist in wantonly taking poults day in day out. These particularly troublesome birds take poults in preference to and to the exclusion of other food and will not be stopped from predating on poults both in and out of the release pens. Odd losses one can absorb, sustained predation such as this is costly and intolerable.

 

I'm afraid to suggest the answer is netting large release pens in our upland wooded combes, moorland and pasture shows how little you know of our topography. Every conceivable precaution is taken to minimise Buzzard predation including the sowing of kale strips in the release pens. We still suffer losses.

 

Considering peoples livelihood, mine included, hinges on the success of game shooting, I think it only fair and correct that government should address the matter and not be swayed by pressure groups from making good sound legislation, be it an emotive issue.

 

Game shooting is worth many millions of pounds a year to the rural economy, on Exmoor alone game shooting contributes £18 million to the UK economy, employes some 1,600 people and together with 14,000 visitor nights in local hotels game shooting is a highly important "industry" in such a fragile rural economy.

 

As has been pointed out, inland fisheries control Cormorants, sheep farmers control foxes, foresters control deer and so on. All on economic grounds. Why should game shoots be prevented from protecting their economic interests.

 

It must be understood that I am not the voice of "shoot every Buzzard on sight", quite the opposite. All I ask is that shoots should be given the option to apply for and be granted a license to cull specific birds when there is a need.

[dougall]

An interesting debate.

Personally I think Buzzards are thriving and seem to thrive near areas where there are large shooting estates.I have seen the largest concentrations in the west country/Welsh Borders. As someone who shoots I think that the price reflects the predation costs and is a price worth paying. I think the moment the shooting world presses for Buzzard culls is the moment when the conservation arguments and countryside management argument is lost.

Call me a tree-hugger or whatever but I love to see BOPs/owls etc that is a big part of my special days out on driven shoots. Are there too many buzzards? Probably in certain areas but over time with hard winters etc a balance will be struck.Should Buzzards be licenced/nests destroyed..absolutely not. I see their success as a feather in the cap of estate and shoot management and it would be shooting ourselves in the foot to pursue any form of control.

[Piebob]

What I would welcome though is the ability, via license, to be able to cull specific Buzzards that, despite all endeavours, persist in wantonly taking poults day in day out. These particularly troublesome birds take poults in preference to and to the exclusion of other food and will not be stopped from predating on poults both in and out of the release pens.

Exactly - they are like rogue sharks, rogue lions, etc. Once they learn they have an easy pickings, that becomes the staple diet. Taking these out would seem only sensible to me.

 

But what I'd really like to see is a scientific study of the impact of the soaring buzzard population on not just game birds, but also other birds (in particular waders and other BoPs) and wildlife.