Hopper Bopper Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 Hi guys I am applying for my fac and want to put in for .22 wmr and mod for foxes. What do people consider to be the max working range for clean kill on foxes? Many thanks HB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie-fox Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 hello hopper.. ive got a 22cz wmr...ive shot several foxes this year from 15 yards to just about 100 yards...its a really good tool for the job as long as you dont push it and keep the shots to about 100 or so yards and try to get good solid head shots....ive got a A-tec mod on it with 1 extra baffle to keep it nice and quiet.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salop Matt Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 From what ive seen on here 100 yards is about as far as you go but they also seem to like the heaveyr ammo and of cause that gives you loopier tragectory ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 why choose a wmr for foxing? for a dedicated fox gun there are far better choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta28g Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 why choose a wmr for foxing? for a dedicated fox gun there are far better choices. Also id say the max range is the maximum range you can be consistently accurate with it, i doubt you'll be able to shoot it well enough to be able to out shoot the rifles theoretical maximum range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Is this designed to be a dedicated fox rifle or is fox in addition to "vermin"? What sort of distances does your land currently present foxes at and what sort of land (area/size/usage/topography/neighbours/etc) do you have? If you can shoot and your rifle works, then 100 yards is easy. 40g HP in the head or 30g V-Max in the chest, would generally bring the best results, but, put any .22WMR in the right place at the right distance and they fall down. Mine can shoot both of these sub 1" at 100 yards and fox doesn't argue. I find it an excellent fox calibre (good too for the Canada Geese), at the right distances, and the V-Max is also excellent on the bunnies, (the 40g HP can commonly pass clean through expanding little or nothing) although I can't remember the last time I took it out specifically for bunnies, almost always use the .22lr or HMR for them! 50g ammo available too, but I have no regular use for that! Whilst my WMR gets a fair bit of use on the range at 200yards, and can produce some excellent results, I would not be considering it at that distance in the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Also id say the max range is the maximum range you can be consistently accurate with it, i doubt you'll be able to shoot it well enough to be able to out shoot the rifles theoretical maximum range. Hang on, we're talking rimfire and fox here. What maximum range are you thinking of? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta28g Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Hang on, we're talking rimfire and fox here. What maximum range are you thinking of? Well, If you can consistantly do say a 1'' group at 100 yards, but that opens out to 2-3'' at 110/120 yards then IMO 100 yards would be your max range. If you could still manage a 1'' group at 140/150 yards im sure the round could still do the job with a good bullet placement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Well, If you can consistantly do say a 1'' group at 100 yards, but that opens out to 2-3'' at 110/120 yards then IMO 100 yards would be your max range. If you could still manage a 1'' group at 140/150 yards im sure the round could still do the job with a good bullet placement. We know full well that with good bullet placement you can drop a hare at 704 yards. Unfortunately, good bullet placement is not the only factor. For whatever reason (and they're legion) a superb shot at the muzzle can change into a unsatisfactory one at the target. Consequently, the onus is on us as sportsmen to ensure that we deliver sufficient energy to overcome that situation and still ensure a clean kill. As HB is applying for his FAC it's probably fair to say that he has sensibly asked the question as at the moment he has little experience. Therefore, it may be prudent under the circumstances, to go along with the majority peer opinion that 100 yards is about your lot. If that proves not to be the case, then there's going to be a record number of second hand 22 Hornets on offer and a similar number of WMR sales! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 so by record numbers you mean more than you can count on both hands If its an initial grant then there may be the issue of wanting one as a fox gun, might be best suggesting vermin for it on the application. Keep the range down and they will be fine though. Watched 3 dropped with the hmr week before last only one twitched and it wasn't the rather large dog fox that dropped on the spot at 70 yards. Sling a vmax in the engine room and they really don't like it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Well its more capable than the average user. .240 ft lb at the muzzle thereabouts? A .22 hornet can better that at 200yds but i wouldnt go shooting one at 350-400yds foxes, 1st shot placement being the issue here. Energy is sufficient and if the shooter can garantee placement 100yds from a good steady stance at a relaxed and unaware fox i should think its a forgone conclusion when the gun is in the right hands, nothing special about headshots BTW they can go wrong more than heart shots. The humble .22 lr has the energy to kill a fox stone dead at 600yds BUT i have yet to meet the man who can steer it that good- am i making this clear enough? its the nut behind the butt that matters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopper Bopper Posted October 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Thanks for replies lads. This will be my first grant and will want the rifle for foxing at shorter ranges than i hear centre fires being used at. Most of the work will be from a couple of high seats giving open ground out to 120/130 yards all with safe backstops. Other land that can be 'stalked' for gingers only gives 150 yards with backstop. I will be applying with mentor conditions for 17 rem but i want a fall back position AND i will request an open ticket for the rimmies only so that i dont have to wait weeks for feo to pass land off when farmers are having problems. HB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 Thanks for replies lads. This will be my first grant and will want the rifle for foxing at shorter ranges than i hear centre fires being used at. Most of the work will be from a couple of high seats giving open ground out to 120/130 yards all with safe backstops. Other land that can be 'stalked' for gingers only gives 150 yards with backstop. I will be applying with mentor conditions for 17 rem but i want a fall back position AND i will request an open ticket for the rimmies only so that i dont have to wait weeks for feo to pass land off when farmers are having problems. HB Crack on and good luck, let us know how you get on. I'm not convinced a request for an Open (Unrestricted Rimfire) will succeed on the grounds of..... only so that i dont have to wait weeks for feo to pass land off when farmers are having problems. I can't help thinking you and probably 90% or more of other applicants would say the same thing. ATB! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 good luck but unless the situation is very special I can't see it happening, personally I would put in a smaller rimfire and a .223 you have issues that are going to happen with your current course. Firstly the open ticket and there is little chance, secondly WMR as a dedicated fox gun unlikely but possible. The best course of action is to apply for either a .22lr of HMR for rabbits / vermin and a centerfire for foxes, going .22cf means you have a large availability of guns and ammo to choose from the 17 rem really you need to reload for and you'll have enough to learn just starting out without reloading a tricky caliber as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) I only shoot short range and urban foxes. usually with the .22lr or WMR. I have a choice of all the .17 and .22 rimfires to choose from and I would choose the WMR over the HMR every time. The extra thump from a 30gr gamepoint (or available now, Vmax) wins over the extra velocity of the HMR without question. I have shot them at 10 yds and seen them run. I have shot them at 80yds and seen them drop on the spot as if hit by lightning. If you can confidently head shoot them, do so. If a chest shot is the only option make sure your bullet placement is spot on. That said I recently got a .222 as a specific fox (and small deer) rifle as I am running out of short range foxes and cant afford runners of any description, (10yds could be the difference between a find and a loss) as for your application, you need to ask for Vermin and fox If you ask for just fox they will knock you back. The reason you are getting a rimfire with an additional fox condition is that you want to be able to shoot foxes whilst shooting rabbits. Edited October 2, 2012 by Bewsher500 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopper Bopper Posted October 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 I'm not convinced a request for an Open (Unrestricted Rimfire) will succeed on the grounds of..... only so that i dont have to wait weeks for feo to pass land off when farmers are having problems. I can't help thinking you and probably 90% or more of other applicants would say the same thing. I appreciate this comment and see the feo thinking 'not another urgent one' however, my shoot captain (on some of the land i shoot) has suggested introductions to other land owners away from the shoot grounds - land with lambs to protect etc. I know of a land owner next to the shoot that lost a number of lambs to charlie this year and would therefore be approachable for land clearance before the issue arises. My point is that charlie wont wait and neither will aggrieved farmers. letting these people down does not get you a good reputation, responding quick and doing the job does IMO ATB HB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Good luck, let us know what the police say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 I can see the reply already Dekers as I expect you can and the resultant posts complaining of non compliance by licensing and all those poor lambs being munched on by foxes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Couple of points that may be of interest. Simply for clarity, there has been a digit error that has under-stated the WMR ME by some 100 ft/lbs. In your latter post, HB, you didn't mention the best bit of advice given so far which was from al4x and relates to the one problem with the Rem 17. Should you be certain that your quarry and the maximum (ish) ranges stated are not going to alter in the immediate future, then coupled to the LR, there is one CF calibre which negates the need for having both the WMR and the Rem 17 and is easy to reload should you wish to go down that route. Even if reloading is not an option, the ammunition costs will be considerably cheaper and probably more readily available. By emphasising to your FAC Dept. via your FEO that you have made a deliberate attempt to keep your energy requirement as low as is possible you may, just may, make a difference to the response that you get. However, having said all that, it is possible to get the impression from your last post that the ground (no pun intended) rules are already on the move towards 223 territory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 To my mind this shows exactly the problems with learning from the internet rather than in any practical way. No seasoned fox shooter would recommend either a wmr or a 17cf as a first grant fox caliber. Both are not good choices, secondly anyone who has gone through the licensing process will know what is likely to be said on the subject of pushing for an open ticket. By pushing the foxing you do have good reason for a .22cf over a rimfire and the land for it will just need to be cleared till you have some experience and they will grant an open ticket. Someone up that way may know if they will entertain the idea after a year or two. Overall I'd suggest trying to get out with someone locally and learn a bit about foxing as its certainly a lot harder than some on here would make out, and fundamentally the big part of it being harder is being safe and not ending up shooting a sheep or probably worse someones horse or as has happened dog on lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopper Bopper Posted October 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 Couple of points that may be of interest. Simply for clarity, there has been a digit error that has under-stated the WMR ME by some 100 ft/lbs. In your latter post, HB, you didn't mention the best bit of advice given so far which was from al4x and relates to the one problem with the Rem 17. Should you be certain that your quarry and the maximum (ish) ranges stated are not going to alter in the immediate future, then coupled to the LR, there is one CF calibre which negates the need for having both the WMR and the Rem 17 and is easy to reload should you wish to go down that route. Even if reloading is not an option, the ammunition costs will be considerably cheaper and probably more readily available. By emphasising to your FAC Dept. via your FEO that you have made a deliberate attempt to keep your energy requirement as low as is possible you may, just may, make a difference to the response that you get. However, having said all that, it is possible to get the impression from your last post that the ground (no pun intended) rules are already on the move towards 223 territory. This is the basic theory I am working on. I have seen the 17 rem do the job very well and have a contact for reloading. This chap has said he will be a mentor on cf which in my mind is another reason for open so that I again dont have to wait for his permissions being cleared for me. My feo has suggested there is a chance of cf on first grant for 17 rem with mentor conditions. This does still need proving. I take on board all comments and really appreciate the advice. many thanks HB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegasus bridge Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 I'm not convinced a request for an Open (Unrestricted Rimfire) will succeed on the grounds of..... only so that i dont have to wait weeks for feo to pass land off when farmers are having problems. I can't help thinking you and probably 90% or more of other applicants would say the same thing. I appreciate this comment and see the feo thinking 'not another urgent one' however, my shoot captain (on some of the land i shoot) has suggested introductions to other land owners away from the shoot grounds - land with lambs to protect etc. I know of a land owner next to the shoot that lost a number of lambs to charlie this year and would therefore be approachable for land clearance before the issue arises. My point is that charlie wont wait and neither will aggrieved farmers. letting these people down does not get you a good reputation, responding quick and doing the job does IMO ATB HB i put some similar points to notts, and they wouldnt budge, so i now waste more of their time getting little parcels of land approved. good luck though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopper Bopper Posted October 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 i put some similar points to notts, and they wouldnt budge, so i now waste more of their time getting little parcels of land approved. good luck though This what worries me as it tokk 6 months for sgc!!!!! How long has it taken you to get clearances? HB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegasus bridge Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 This what worries me as it tokk 6 months for sgc!!!!! How long has it taken you to get clearances? HB it took about 6 months all in all, I applied after 2 years for an open cert, but was advised i would need to wait until at least 3 years (which has now passed - but i have not got round to it). I then asked them to come out to inspect a few smaller parcels of land on an ad-hoc basis, it got painful when i had to ask leics police to do the same (some land is over the border). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 No seasoned fox shooter would recommend either a wmr or a 17cf as a first grant fox caliber. I assume you mean .17rimfire but I disagree. It depends entirely on the ground you are shooting and the range you are shooting at. most people think of fox shooting as 200yds out as a norm. In practice there are lots of people including me who shoot several a week and never get past 80-90-100yds we dont know where this chap is shooting or what ranges he expects to be shooting. I for one would rather an new FAC holder was out lamping with a WMR than a .223, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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