Reece Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 There's going to be a programme on BBC breakfast on lead shot, sometime in the next half an hour (probably less, given how long it's taken me to write this). Probably worth a watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delburt0 Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 The guy in glasses proper bozo wants everyone to shoot steel ehhh wonder if he is going to buy us all 3" steel proofed new and shiney guns... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolhead Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Apparently the incidents of lead poisoning have not reduced since steel shot was mandated. Well that should concern everyone. However the guy from the CA came across as uncooperative and self-interested. Just what the antis wanted to see It was a pretty lame article and the only useful information to come from it was that there is already an ammunition working group preparing a report on the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 If that bloke from CA is the best that the shooting world can come up with then we may as well throw in the towel. A typical emotive piece of BBC reporting with pictures of staggering ducks etc. Did you notice that limping swan in the background? No mention of that. The law, as it stands, is crazy. If the ban was on wetlands only and not species related, as in Scotland, it would make sense and everyone would comply - as the 'fowlers do now. The lead could come from anywhere that the birds travel throughout the year. Or it could have been in the silt for years. There is no viable alternative to lead for game guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Indeed Grandalf every time the subject comes up BASC put down the issue of where you can use lead and its wrong. If there is a problem we can't justify using lead over wetlands the current law doesn't make sense. If you comply with it to the letter there is still lead entering wetlands and apparently that is bad. The BBC aspect is the scariest bit so far with regard to the issue and I have this horrible feeling we're on a downhill spiral, and still have the nagging question of its inevitability with regard to our shooting organisations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Bear Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 A Leading question - people are very quick to call BASC, has anyone considered that they were not invited as their reasoned approach may not be what the program maker (with good old auntie Beeb usually an anti) required, so they would not get the impact they were seeking. The CA have other agendas and they know it. Dons tin hat and ducks back below parapet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Although i only saw the prelude to it the CA are trying to work towards shooters needs so are actually welcome to try and balance things. They are probably more vocal in the use of lead and don't struggle with all the negative PR that was required to get BASC's head above the parapet on the subject and lots still don't know whether this is a bit of a charade to keep the membership happy while lead gets sunk through the LAG, but ultimately the response will still have the we're waiting for the results and in the mean time say how much basis we are putting on the evidence the LAG comes up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salopian Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Good to see the BASC multimillion£ media centre being used so effectively. Interesting to know that 75% of Mallard are still shot with Lead, Where are these scientific facts obtainable from good Sir? BBC being a very considerate organisation will obviously give the shooting organisations the right to reply? Would there be any reason that BASC were not included in the debate? Or did they leave it up to Debra Paine as she would have been on site! Come on Shooters wake up and smell the coffee, Lead is Dead and we are being led like lambs to the slaughter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 The lead could come from anywhere that the birds travel throughout the year. Or it could have been in the silt for years. Not forgetting that lead shot size 8 and smaller can still be used for fishing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) Interesting to know that 75% of Mallard are still shot with Lead, Where are these scientific facts obtainable from good Sir? Scotland? For 7 years of data about lead poisoning, there is IMHO not enough evidence. If there is a problem with ingested lead then the numbers should be going through the roof as it should be exponential. It isn`t so it is not. Edited October 8, 2012 by henry d Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Well according to 'new research' from the WWT a third of UK wildfowl are poisoned by lead shot, and 10% die from lead poisoning. Yet all they can come up with is one Mallard clearly suffering some form of paralysis, whilst hundreds of healthy looking birds are on the lake in the background. Surely according to their own statistics at least 30% of these birds should be showing the symptoms of poisoning? All seems a bit far fetched to me. Their figures simply don't stack up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guest1957 Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 I get the feeling she was well rehearsed for that interview. Particularly the 'simple solution' line she took with simply phasing out lead and phasing in non-toxic. To the uninitiated that sounds like a no-brainer and unless more effort is made to respond to the latest assault by the WWT public opinion could be turned forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cant hit rabbits 123 Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 The woman in that interview stated that some countries have already banned lead out right in ammunition. Anyone know which ones these are as I cant think of any? Obviously they are pushing the 'simple solution, ban the poisons' agenda because its effectively their final aim and its also an easier one to feed to the public.The general public are never going to understand why lead is used, and I dare say few care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guest1957 Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 The woman in that interview stated that some countries have already banned lead out right in ammunition. Anyone know which ones these are as I cant think of any? Obviously they are pushing the 'simple solution, ban the poisons' agenda because its effectively their final aim and its also an easier one to feed to the public.The general public are never going to understand why lead is used, and I dare say few care. Norway, Sweden, Denmark and the Netherlands apparently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salopian Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Anyone who is not aware of the effects of shooting with steel shot ( actually soft iron) should pay a visit to the clayground at Dornsberg in Germany where you will find not a blade of grass! Of course if we change over to soft iron that would save the seventy % of Mallard that was magically conjured up but of course it would destroy this green and pleasant land. It is very disappointing that there has not been one murmur of complaint from 'the voice of shooting ' BASC, despite them having a multi -million pound media centre to work from and enabling them to instantly communicate with the BBC. Would this be because (a) BASC are not really concerned about any bans on Lead shot despite there not being a truly viable alternative. Or (B) BASC cannot be seen to be disagreeing with the WWT who actually pay BASC for research? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) I would think most of them will be at the party conferences at the moment;a good time for any anti propaganda to emerge,but I see David is on another forum at the moment,so perhaps he's been left back at Mill to keep an eye on things! :DOr he's taken his laptop? Look what editing did to my smiley emoticon! Edited October 9, 2012 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougall Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Where did the report showing 70% of Mallard were killed by lead come from?How big a sample etc? As a game shooter(mainly) who also shoots wildfowl,and use hevishot on those occassions,I do think the shooting community has got to get firm on non toxic shot..this is not an argument that can be won,the law is clear. If Lead does continue to be used for Wildfowl then this argument cannot be won and it brings into play the alternative which is the extreme complete ban on Lead. I have follwed these threads WWT/BASC/LAG...I do not understand the interaction and politics between these groups....but if Lead is poisonous and is proven to be so then I think we as a minority interest should wake up and smell the flowers...comply with the Law or reap the consequences.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 We commit our resources to where they can have the best and most effective impact. So rather than going on TV yesterday morning, BASC was finalising securing assurances from all three major political parties that a ban on the use of lead ammunition is not on their agenda. Securing political support is very important to shooting. Of course we disagree with what the WWT have said and done as we posted on the BASC web site yesterday, if only you had bothered to look Salopian! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salopian Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 David, You can disagree with what Debra Paine has to say as much as you like but then BASC is assisting her in her research. To say that you were securing assurances from Politicians is rather futile because we know how dishonest they are, but where were the media department yesterday? What is the point of the media centre if it cannot refute false allegations immediately by video link. It was noticeable in the television coveridge that 30% of the Wildfowl were not sick or dying in the background. Why doesn't BASC canvas their members to see how many of their members are suffering from the effects of ingesting Lead whilst following BASC initiative with Game to Eat? Why doesn't BASC make people aware of the harmful effects of eating farmed Salmon that have been proven to be fed on food that may cause carconagenic illnesses? Why doesn't BASC make people aware of the possible dangers of being exposed to Tungsten ammunition? Why doesn't BASC make people aware of the dangers of soft iron shot and agricultural chemicals? Why haven't BASC funded research into a viable, economic readily available alternative to Lead shot as pledged more than ten years ago? David, I think it really is time for BASC to offer a robust defence for the continued use of Lead shot as the only efficient material suitable for shotgun ammunition. In light of no suitable alternative being readily available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Salopian, You are basing the opening part of your post on a totally inaccurate statement – that BASC are assisting the WWT with their research. This is simply not true. We did one bit of reach a couple of years ago into our members knowledge and application of the law on lead shot – to suggest we are in any way assisting the WWT with any other work or research is totally wrong...I wonder why and what your objective is? If we had failed to secure cross party support then yes we would be open to criticism. I don’t know any nor have I heard any reports on BASC members like me, who regularly eat game suffering any health problems. What has salmon farming got to do with BASC? Nothing, and that’s why we are not commenting on it! I am not aware of anyone being harmed by eating game or wildfowl shot with tungsten, are you if so point me to the medical reports? I am not aware of steel shot causing damage to agriculture in the UK are you, if so point me ot the reprots which I assume will be on the NFU web site?. Last time I checked it’s the shotgun cartridge manufacturers that have the kit and resource to develop products for us shooters, as they have done. You may or may not have noticed, or perhaps you simply cant be bothered to check, or perhaps you have deliberately ignored it, but when the wetland ban was introduced BASC successfully challenged the inclusion of many sites of special scientific interests and, most importantly, BASC had snipe and woodcock removed from the list of birds that could only be shot with lead substitutes. Since the 1990’s there have been several calls for total lead shot bans in the UK, all of which have been successfully defeated, and despite the recent noisy attack by the WWT and RSPB, the association has successfully lobbied all the UK political parties to make sure none of them have any plans for further restrictions – and we are keeping up the pressure on this. Personally I think David T did a good job but whoever was going onto TV was on a hiding to nothing in this case, as the other speakers where dyed in the wool anti lead and there was not enough time for reasoned debate. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmoke Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Interesting to know that 75% of Mallard are still shot with Lead, Where are these scientific facts obtainable from good Sir? Salopain: we have been all through this before but I think, I must repeat myself. The 75% comes from the BASC/WWT report on Compliance. They bought ready to cook duck from game deals. The duck could have been shoot legal in the UK at the time or from other parts of the EU. Its base on **** science. I aslo note that the Newth report just out fro the WWT uses the Mudge report on lead shot. The Mudge was a WWT report along with the RSPB and your not going to believe this, the BASC! Yes once against BASC are working to save shooting? BASC are up to there eye balls in all this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmoke Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 We commit our resources to where they can have the best and most effective impact. So rather than going on TV yesterday morning, BASC was finalising securing assurances from all three major political parties that a ban on the use of lead ammunition is not on their agenda. Securing political support is very important to shooting. Of course we disagree with what the WWT have said and done as we posted on the BASC web site yesterday, if only you had bothered to look Salopian! David Interseting, I'm not a CA man but they did both. David Tayor on BBC and Tim Bonner was at the tory conference. Anyway you are to busy on the forums to go on TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmoke Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 The first BBC interview was addad to the thread, are is the second interview. note it is the BASC/WWT report being used the hit shooting over the head with. I'd like to say I told you so. BUT it may be too late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Never let the truth get in the way of your prejudice against BASC eh? BASC were not involved with the purchase or testing of ducks! Yes we are actively involved in the lead issue, and have been for decades as my last post clearly says – you though seem to be determined to undermine and ignore everything BASC does to keep shooting and lead shot safe I do wonder why!! Both BASC and the CA have openly criticised the latest WWT report and BASC has also taken the FSA to task – more on he BASC web sit if you look. Yes its BASC that has secured cross party confirmation that banning lead shot is NOT on their political agenda – no one else – just us! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolhead Posted October 9, 2012 Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 Personally I think David T did a good job but whoever was going onto TV was on a hiding to nothing in this case, as the other speakers where dyed in the wool anti lead and there was not enough time for reasoned debate. David Unfortunately neither yours nor the politicians' opinions matter one jot. It's the voting public, and the tabloids who drive many of them, who set the majority of policy. I don't need to remind anyone what the baying press have indirectly done to shooting over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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