Vipa Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 compare these http://www.gwct.org....d_pheasants.pdf http://www.gwct.org....eer/default.asp six and two threes logicaly we all do what we enjoy as i have previously stated... if i have misunderstood and pheasants are not bred and released with the sole intention of shooting them then I appologise and will hapily consider changing my opinion... i am not talking about 'other' benefits derived from breeding pheasants I am talking about the prime reason they are bred. showing me conservation leaflets does nothing for me... the conservation benefits are secondary even tertiary and are simply an effect caused by something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROBLATCH Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 as i have previously stated... if i have misunderstood and pheasants are not bred and released with the sole intention of shooting them then I appologise and will hapily consider changing my opinion... i am not talking about 'other' benefits derived from breeding pheasants I am talking about the prime reason they are bred. showing me conservation leaflets does nothing for me... the conservation benefits are secondary even tertiary and are simply an effect caused by something else i aint against any type of hunting/shooting and would praise any soul in the sport regardless of shooting rota but imo its all about the final word conservation and thats why we have appropriate society,s trying to protect them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 I shoot because evolution has made me a predator and I have an atavistic urge to hunt. Guns are one of the most efficient and most satisfying ways of doing it. If I didn't have guns I'd use something else like I did when I was a boy: snares, nets, a bow, traps, whatever came to hand. I greatly prefer hunting edible quarry, because I like to eat. But then again you can make an excellent hat out of a fox. It isn't a lifestyle or even a way of life. Its just life. I do enjoy the kill because that is the primary objective. There is no malice in a kill, but a kill means success and success feels good. Its meant to. Hunting isn't primative, it isn't cruel, it isn't unacceptable "in this day and age"- as if this day and this age were different from any other- its just the way of things. I'm not ashamed of it, I'll never apologise for it, I'll never tie myself into knots trying to justify it and I'll never stop doing it. And if antis are reading this, get used to it. It was here before you arrived and it will still be here after you've gone. And if I was building a house for an anti I'd do the very best job I could, the same as always, because when the anti is long gone the building will still have my name on it. And besides, they'd be paying me. That's a contract and personalities and prejudices don't come into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 But isnt a hell of a lot of dear stalking just done for fun for many its nothing more than trophy hunting Nope, many more cull beasts are shot than trophies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 I shoot because evolution has made me a predator and I have an atavistic urge to hunt. Guns are one of the most efficient and most satisfying ways of doing it. If I didn't have guns I'd use something else like I did when I was a boy: snares, nets, a bow, traps, whatever came to hand. I greatly prefer hunting edible quarry, because I like to eat. But then again you can make an excellent hat out of a fox. It isn't a lifestyle or even a way of life. Its just life. I do enjoy the kill because that is the primary objective. There is no malice in a kill, but a kill means success and success feels good. Its meant to. Hunting isn't primative, it isn't cruel, it isn't unacceptable "in this day and age"- as if this day and this age were different from any other- its just the way of things. I'm not ashamed of it, I'll never apologise for it, I'll never tie myself into knots trying to justify it and I'll never stop doing it. And if antis are reading this, get used to it. It was here before you arrived and it will still be here after you've gone. And if I was building a house for an anti I'd do the very best job I could, the same as always, because when the anti is long gone the building will still have my name on it. And besides, they'd be paying me. That's a contract and personalities and prejudices don't come into it. don't disagree with any of that Gimlet... very well put! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Nope, many more cull beasts are shot than trophies. Yep. Roll on doe season the bloody freezers empty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Almost every anti I've taken the time to talk to has come around to my way of thinking. Even the veggies can be worked on with reasons for deer culls etc. I'd start off by finding out if he eats meat. Then you can explain how clean the kills usually are, why the dog is there for when they go wrong etc. The animals don't need to be shoved in a lorry, then shoved back out into a strange building to be manhandled some more before being dealt with. Our quarry simply goes about it's natural business and then it's lights out - it's got to be better that way and many animal lovers will agree once they think about it. After dropping myself right in the **** I once turned a vegan lady over by asking the question "if there are fifty deer on a hill that only has enough food to support thirty over winter do you allow them all to suffer and have a remainder of poor animals left in spring or do you shoot twenty and make good use of them so the others can come through winter fit and healthy to breed next year?" She thought for a monent and replied "well I suppose when you look at it like that the same number will die anyway but they will all suffer more. I'll never eat meat but I can understand why these things need to be done". I think that's the most memorable conversation I've ever had. It gave me a really good feeling and after another hour of chatting we parted company with a wave and a smile. I could have grunted at her and turned my back but then she'd still be an anti. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikk Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 My wife was vegan when I met her, now vegi. She wont eat meat but has a common sence approach to meat and will even prepare it. I admire her, she has her opinions but doen't feel the need to condemn others for theirs unlike mr vipa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Almost every anti I've taken the time to talk to has come around to my way of thinking. Even the veggies can be worked on with reasons for deer culls etc. I'd start off by finding out if he eats meat. Then you can explain how clean the kills usually are, why the dog is there for when they go wrong etc. The animals don't need to be shoved in a lorry, then shoved back out into a strange building to be manhandled some more before being dealt with. Our quarry simply goes about it's natural business and then it's lights out - it's got to be better that way and many animal lovers will agree once they think about it. After dropping myself right in the **** I once turned a vegan lady over by asking the question "if there are fifty deer on a hill that only has enough food to support thirty over winter do you allow them all to suffer and have a remainder of poor animals left in spring or do you shoot twenty and make good use of them so the others can come through winter fit and healthy to breed next year?" She thought for a monent and replied "well I suppose when you look at it like that the same number will die anyway but they will all suffer more. I'll never eat meat but I can understand why these things need to be done". I think that's the most memorable conversation I've ever had. It gave me a really good feeling and after another hour of chatting we parted company with a wave and a smile. I could have grunted at her and turned my back but then she'd still be an anti. She was clearly an intelligent person capable of adjusting her perspective according to facts. A lot of antis are politically motivated. They hate shooting because they hate the sort of people they imagine shooters to be, not the other way round. There is little you can do to convert them. You have to go round them and leave them isolated, taking people like the above lady with you. Tricky manoeuvre to pull off but that is what shooting needs to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 My wife was vegan when I met her, now vegi. She wont eat meat but has a common sence approach to meat and will even prepare it. I admire her, she has her opinions but doen't feel the need to condemn others for theirs unlike mr vipa. Is anyone actually reading what I am writing.... obviously not judging by this drivel! I have not condemned anyone, I have not dissacociated myself with anyone............. I have merely stated that I FIND IT DIFFICULT TO MORALLY RATIONALISE REARING BIRDS PURELY SO THEY CAN BE SHOT If I am not allowed to have my own views or share them on a public forum then I will quite happily just ****** off somewhere else and ask admin to close my account down!!! that's all they are MY OWN VERY PERSONAL VIEWS.... I HAVE NOT ONCE ASKED ANYONE ELSE TO FOLLOW THEM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeon pete Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 upload a video from youtube about slaughter houses to your phone ,ask him if he eats meat ,if he says yes ,then show him the video and say ,not all meat comes in a tesco bag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikaveli Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Is anyone actually reading what I am writing.... obviously not judging by this drivel! I have not condemned anyone, I have not dissacociated myself with anyone............. I have merely stated that I FIND IT DIFFICULT TO MORALLY RATIONALISE REARING BIRDS PURELY SO THEY CAN BE SHOT If I am not allowed to have my own views or share them on a public forum then I will quite happily just ****** off somewhere else and ask admin to close my account down!!! that's all they are MY OWN VERY PERSONAL VIEWS.... I HAVE NOT ONCE ASKED ANYONE ELSE TO FOLLOW THEM! Calm down, calm down. So is it easier to rationalise cows being reared just to get a captive bolt through their heads for some 'tasty steak'? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you - just looking for some context? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castletyne Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) Is anyone actually reading what I am writing.... obviously not judging by this drivel! I have not condemned anyone, I have not dissacociated myself with anyone............. I have merely stated that I FIND IT DIFFICULT TO MORALLY RATIONALISE REARING BIRDS PURELY SO THEY CAN BE SHOT If I am not allowed to have my own views or share them on a public forum then I will quite happily just ****** off somewhere else and ask admin to close my account down!!! that's all they are MY OWN VERY PERSONAL VIEWS.... I HAVE NOT ONCE ASKED ANYONE ELSE TO FOLLOW THEM! Problem is you said slight difference.... game birds are bred... at great expense.... to be shot... FOR FUN... by well heeled chaps in tweed who pay a lot of money for the privilage of doing it... not for food, that is just a by product, or for medical research This is the same rubbish the Antis use to try and gain support from non shooters Edited October 31, 2012 by glen fox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 Problem is you said slight difference.... game birds are bred... at great expense.... to be shot... FOR FUN... by well heeled chaps in tweed who pay a lot of money for the privilage of doing it... not for food, that is just a by product, or for medical research This is the same rubbish the Antis use to try and gain support from non shooters Ok take out the well heeled bit and replace with 'mainly well heeled' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 What has well heeled got to do with anything in this discussion? It's like claiming only toffs go fox hunting and its wrong because of it. The most expensive shoots are the true wild bird shoots, on ours we have a mix of wild and supplement with reared. It's amazing how opinions get formed from anti propaganda as if vipa had been anywhere near a game shoot he would realise a lot he has written is tripe. One thing is also certain the general public find shooting bambi a lot less palatable than pheasants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) What has well heeled got to do with anything in this discussion? It's like claiming only toffs go fox hunting and its wrong because of it. The most expensive shoots are the true wild bird shoots, on ours we have a mix of wild and supplement with reared. It's amazing how opinions get formed from anti propaganda as if vipa had been anywhere near a game shoot he would realise a lot he has written is tripe. One thing is also certain the general public find shooting bambi a lot less palatable than pheasants There ya go... Making incorrect assumptions as usual Alex You are trying to defend something you don't need to defend! You are free to do whatever you like and I won't criticise you for it. I don't know of another way to say it.... I cannot personally morally rationalise the breeding and rearing of birds with the sole intention of them being shot at for fun. That is all I have ever said. If you don't understand that then I am sorry.... But it really isn't that difficult a concept to get your head round... It's just the way I feel. no amount of conservation, job creation or increase in community income will change that. I hunt, I do not have any issue whatsoever with shooting sports of any description... The part I cannot and will never agree with is the deliberate breeding and nurturing of any living creature purely so it can be used as a live target As I have said too many times now... If I have got my facts wrong and you are telling me that I'm wrong and that you do not rear birds with the sole intention of using them as targets then I am all ears and am quite happy to consider my stance based on the info and evidence you can show me to the contrary! Edited November 1, 2012 by Vipa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DNS Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) If anyone knows a 'well heeled' chap (tweeds optional) to help fund our DIY syndicate in Cumbria, please ask him to get in touch. The rest of us fit the feeding and keeping in around full time jobs and haven't got two pennies to rub together most of the time. Any spare game also welcome because we eat every phesant and duck that we shoot. Edited November 1, 2012 by DNS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) Duplicated post Edited November 1, 2012 by Vipa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontbeck Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 Vipa There have been some posters who may not have understood that your main gripe is the rearing of game to be shot. What I don`t understand is how you are prepared to stalk and pigeon shoot without any qualms and eat free range chicken, which has been bred to be killed and eaten. It just does not add up to me.You are saying it`s wrong to rear game just for the sport of shooting it and yet will eat chicken which has been bred for the same purpose, to be killed and eaten.Morally you are prepared to shoot deer but find it distasteful to shoot reared pheasant.They are one and the same to me. As to what happens to the shot game, the large estates around me send them to the continent where they are valued as good food, more than the average person values them here. I`m not out for an argument, I just feel that your moral issues are not logical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 your moral issues are not logical. Moral issues and logic don't always go hand in hand. However I understand exactly what Vipa's point is and he's perfectly entitled to it. All he's saying is that he personally is uneasy with the rearing of birds to be shot just for fun. Let's face it, that is actually what happens in practice, and we might as well face our demons head on. And - FAOD - I do not have the same difficulty, I don't mind it and it sits fine with me. I actually think it's thrilling, fun and I'll furthermore eat as many bids as I can get my hands on. I'm entitled to my opinion, and so is he. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 I find it quite amusing someone in financial services having morals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) I find it quite amusing someone in financial services having morals Oh they have morals, just questionable ones.... Edited November 1, 2012 by Thunderbird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 I find it quite amusing someone in financial services having morals Now... I think I was 11 the last time I resorted to name calling because I couldn't win an argument! Moral issues and logic don't always go hand in hand. However I understand exactly what Vipa's point is and he's perfectly entitled to it. All he's saying is that he personally is uneasy with the rearing of birds to be shot just for fun. Let's face it, that is actually what happens in practice, and we might as well face our demons head on. And - FAOD - I do not have the same difficulty, I don't mind it and it sits fine with me. I actually think it's thrilling, fun and I'll furthermore eat as many bids as I can get my hands on. I'm entitled to my opinion, and so is he. Thank You TB... at last! Vipa There have been some posters who may not have understood that your main gripe is the rearing of game to be shot. What I don`t understand is how you are prepared to stalk and pigeon shoot without any qualms and eat free range chicken, which has been bred to be killed and eaten. It just does not add up to me.You are saying it`s wrong to rear game just for the sport of shooting it and yet will eat chicken which has been bred for the same purpose, to be killed and eaten.Morally you are prepared to shoot deer but find it distasteful to shoot reared pheasant.They are one and the same to me. As to what happens to the shot game, the large estates around me send them to the continent where they are valued as good food, more than the average person values them here. I`m not out for an argument, I just feel that your moral issues are not logical. Simple... because deer are wild animals, pigeon are a pest and a threat to crops. Free range chicken are bred specifically and solely for food... pheasant are bred solely to be used as target practice. Now... I think I was 11 the last time I resorted to name calling because I couldn't win an argument! Thank You TB... at last! Simple... because deer are wild animals, pigeon are a pest and a threat to crops. Free range chicken are bred specifically and solely for food... pheasant are bred solely to be used as target practice. If you can't acknowledge the truth about your passtimes on a forum dedicated to your passtime then you are truly delusional! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) whats the difference between breeding a sporting quarry and breeding in captivity for food? both end up dead and the shooting part is a past time you enjoy, you don't shoot pigeons for any other reason than you enjoy doing it. Bearing in mind they aren't your crops vermin control argument there would be a complete cop out. There is an element of severe hypocriticalness involved where you feel you can justify shooting on one hand and condemn a part you have no knowledge of on the other. Edited November 1, 2012 by al4x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 whats the difference between breeding a sporting quarry and breeding in captivity for food? both end up dead and the shooting part is a past time you enjoy, you don't shoot pigeons for any other reason than you enjoy doing it. Bearing in mind they aren't your crops vermin control argument there would be a complete cop out. There is an element of severe hypocriticalness involved where you feel you can justify shooting on one hand and condemn a part you have no knowledge of on the other. and... if you can't see my point of view then you have your head buried so far in the sand only your toes are poking out... i do not have a problem shooting wild quarry or breeding in captivity for food... after all, we all need to eat.. i have a problem breeding animals to be used as target practice... are you telling me that's not what you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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