Olliesims Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Well a few months ago my fao came to check my new cabinet and while he was here I asked about muntjac on my .223 he said no I needed a dsc1, well yesterday it was annoying me as there is no law saying that and decided to ring up Warwickshire police and speak to David sutclife I asked him about the dsc1 and what law is there backing it saying I needed one for deer/muntjac he told me that my fao had misinformed me and I can have deer added and to send my license in to be changed he also said they now offer all lawful quarry condition, so how does my fao say something different to someone else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docholiday Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 welcome to the world of firearms and the law Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 They make it up as they go along, that said I'm pleased I did DSC1 you do gain a fair bit from it and getting some experience with someone who knows what they are doing with deer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shotgun sam Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 I asked my FEO if my 223 would have to include muntjac as well as my condition to shoot roe (Scotland). He said no need to have it added as I already have vermin conditioned and that is what they are classed as. Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Scotland are pretty adamant they don't want munties up there so the situation might be different, I wouldn't work on that basis south of the border Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browning Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Where abouts in Warwickshire are you Ollie? I heard tell of a certain Warwickshire FEO that makes life difficult for new deer conditions as he likes to ringfence all the stalking for himself..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) Well a few months ago my fao came to check my new cabinet and while he was here I asked about muntjac on my .223 he said no I needed a dsc1, well yesterday it was annoying me as there is no law saying that and decided to ring up Warwickshire police and speak to David sutclife I asked him about the dsc1 and what law is there backing it saying I needed one for deer/muntjac he told me that my fao had misinformed me and I can have deer added and to send my license in to be changed he also said they now offer all lawful quarry condition, so how does my fao say something different to someone else? Because they often make things up depending upon their current mood. To be fair, I think it's probably the culture of the job which encourages it; when they get their annual appraisal they can show that they did something. It doesn't matter what, just something. I notice that, once again, this isn't something they were prepared to put in writing. I think that if you had actually put that on your application it would not have been refused. J. Edited December 6, 2012 by JonathanL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olliesims Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 He said if I send it in he would amend the .223 to all lawful quarry, I asked about putting in a variation on a .243 said as long as I show good reason it's not a problem to have for fox only or deer and fox so next year going to get a variation for a .243 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds chimp Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 I was turned down for a 243 due to not enough experience but new FEO said yes not a problem just let me know when Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olliesims Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Yer it's pretty bad there like that, but if he says anything like dsc 1 can't have deer for a .243 or can't have for fox and Ill just state the main man says other wise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jackson Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Ollie, unfortunately the law regarding who can have and who can't have certain conditions on there license is a very grey area. As it stands as long as you can justify why you need a certain calibre on your license then they can't refuse you. All this, you must have a DSC 1 is incorrect but some FEO think they can in force it. But the reality is they can't. It's like open conditions, your untitled to have open condition but the FEO will want satisfaction that you a safe shot. How can they police that, simple they can't. Like I did with you, I can question your ability to tell me what's safe and what's not. If I'm satisfied which I was, then you can have the condition. FEO's won't come out with you every time you shoot so therefore can't police that condition. You can attended these DSC 1 courses, but it doesn't mean that you'll be safe or deal with animal in the right way. David Sutcliffe is a very knowledgeable bloke when it comes to, licensing so always take advice from him in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olliesims Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Ollie, unfortunately the law regarding who can have and who can't have certain conditions on there license is a very grey area. As it stands as long as you can justify why you need a certain calibre on your license then they can't refuse you. All this, you must have a DSC 1 is incorrect but some FEO think they can in force it. But the reality is they can't. It's like open conditions, your untitled to have open condition but the FEO will want satisfaction that you a safe shot. How can they police that, simple they can't. Like I did with you, I can question your ability to tell me what's safe and what's not. If I'm satisfied which I was, then you can have the condition. FEO's won't come out with you every time you shoot so therefore can't police that condition. You can attended these DSC 1 courses, but it doesn't mean that you'll be safe or deal with animal in the right way. David Sutcliffe is a very knowledgeable bloke when it comes to, licensing so always take advice from him in the future. Yes but it was a one off I had you tho and I doubt ill get you again, I'm sure if I asked for a open with my new feo it would of been a straight forward no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jackson Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 You probably right, I'm back to my original job now my backs good. Sorry dude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olliesims Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Well ill arrange with you a time you pull a sickie say its bad again and come see me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jackson Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 This has been coming for a long time. I can't see how existing deer-legal CF holders can have deer or "all legal quarry" withheld from their ticket, but licensing depts are increasingly aware that without a DMQ and a skilled hunter number it is now illegal under meat and game regs to declare a carcase healthy at source after a field inspection and sell the meat into the human food chain. So first time applicants for a deer-legao calibre may find that not having DSC1 and the registered hunter number that goes with it will undermine their "good reason to possess". Why should we give a deer rifle if you can't pass the carcase fit and sell the meat? is the logic. And if you say tha's alright my mate does the inspections you'll get a mentoring restriction. It's an unintended consequence of legislation. I think the BDS and the DSC certificates have become something of a racket; but that said a good DSC1 course (and some are better than others) is well worth doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 they seem two make it up as they go along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olliesims Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 they seem two make it up as they go along. Sadly that's true I would of thought it would of been the higher man dishing out the ridiculous false conditions not the lower man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnome of the Woods Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Sadly that's true I would of thought it would of been the higher man dishing out the ridiculous false conditions not the lower man There you go again, "thinking"! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasons gold Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 This has been coming for a long time. I can't see how existing deer-legal CF holders can have deer or "all legal quarry" withheld from their ticket, but licensing depts are increasingly aware that without a DMQ and a skilled hunter number it is now illegal under meat and game regs to declare a carcase healthy at source after a field inspection and sell the meat into the human food chain. So first time applicants for a deer-legao calibre may find that not having DSC1 and the registered hunter number that goes with it will undermine their "good reason to possess". Why should we give a deer rifle if you can't pass the carcase fit and sell the meat? is the logic. And if you say tha's alright my mate does the inspections you'll get a mentoring restriction. It's an unintended consequence of legislation. I think the BDS and the DSC certificates have become something of a racket; but that said a good DSC1 course (and some are better than others) is well worth doing. That's not true anybody can sell the meat as there is an exemption Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobt Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 This has been coming for a long time. I can't see how existing deer-legal CF holders can have deer or "all legal quarry" withheld from their ticket, but licensing depts are increasingly aware that without a DMQ and a skilled hunter number it is now illegal under meat and game regs to declare a carcase healthy at source after a field inspection and sell the meat into the human food chain. So first time applicants for a deer-legao calibre may find that not having DSC1 and the registered hunter number that goes with it will undermine their "good reason to possess". Why should we give a deer rifle if you can't pass the carcase fit and sell the meat? is the logic. And if you say tha's alright my mate does the inspections you'll get a mentoring restriction. It's an unintended consequence of legislation. I think the BDS and the DSC certificates have become something of a racket; but that said a good DSC1 course (and some are better than others) is well worth doing. thats the best explaination I have heard, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 I am in total support of the DMQ qualifications and think it should be law. Ok, having a DSC1 doesnt make you an expert stalker, of course not but it does prove that you have some understanding of the law that governs the animals you hunt. Deer seasons, legal calibres and muzzle velocities, what to expect and do when it doesnt quite go to plan. The shooting test is basic but gives a certain standard, it was the 'experienced stalkers' who struggle on my course.The safety training will make you aware of somethings you may have never have concidered before. Having DMQ's,especially DSC2 will open up opportunities for stalking leases on Forestry own land and culling for organisations like Natural England. Without a certain level of DMQ they will not entertain you. Ok Basc and BDS make money out of the courses through the registration but the chaps that run the courses are usually totally committed and usually just about cover their costs. Many acredited witnesses for DSC2 do it for the love of it and make nothing at all. So those that moan about being asked to take DSC1 before being granted a deer calibre stop whinging and go and learn something about the subject you are about to become involved in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) That's not true anybody can sell the meat as there is an exemption Yes but you can't put your name on the label as having inspected the carcase in the field and declared it fit unless you have you own number for tracability. You would have to use someone else's labels. Unless its changed. Again. Edit: I do agree with Redgum though. You shouldn't be able to set out with a 30 calibre rifle to hunt deer (or any other quarry for that matter) in near total ignorance, after a trawl of the internet hoping to learn as you go along. And although the shooting test is pretty straightforward its surprising how many make a mess of it under the pressure. I'm all for training I just feel its becoming increasingly bureaucratic with more snouts competing at the trough. Edited December 6, 2012 by Gimlet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasons gold Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 You don't need the labels to sell the meat ,only if you are certifying the meat yourself otherwise the butcher or game dealer can do it for you hence the exemption I am all for training but don't believe it should become mandatory, you should only do the training if you believe it will benefit you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Essex Hunter Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 The points Redgum made are valid, however I don’t feel that making it law to have a dsc1 qualification would work given the great number of variations to how the guidance notes are interpreted in the UK. If they could work that system out first then everybody would be know what to expect, this would allow people to budget before they applied for a FAC rather than come up against the many problems we see posted on forums. TEH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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