American gun laws

[Gimlet]

You know what would be productive? If everyone stopped jerking each other off about gun laws and started talking about putting more money into identifying and treating mental illness, ever more so in a country with no national health care system.

 

 

 

 

But that would not only be an intellegent conversation to have, but also rational and productive use of our time and intelligence, so I know that this comment will be mostly ignored on this forum, and ever more so in the states.

 

 

Its a fair point but a minefield. Preventative legislation such as firearms law is a very blunt instrument that is hard to deploy with finesse. To take the case of Micheal Ryan for example, from the evidence of people who knew him, I'm not sure you could decribe him as mentally ill. He had an absent father and a pathological, claustrophobic relationship with his mother who smothered him to an extreme degree. He was denied normal childhood friendships and grew a sociopathic and frustrated loner. That's a personality, albeit a defective one, not an illness, and it is not possible to predict how such a person may behave in future. You can't force medical treatment on someone just because they're odd. Up until he committed his crimes he had done nothing to justify removing his guns under existing firearms law. And that's the problem. The ban on automatic weapons after Hungerford was a knee-jerk reaction which made everyone feel like they were doing something, but it has achieved nothing statistically. Derek Bird wreaked just as much carnage with household pest guns.

The difference between here and the US is that there unfit people buy their guns from a shop and here they buy them from a backstreet dealer. Either way if they want them they can get them.

 

One aspect which really raises my hackles is the cultural addiction to guns as entertainment. Society (particularly in the US) is saturated with trivialised imagary of gun violence in films and computer games. That isn't healthy for anyone's mind. I find most nonshooters who get a chance to fire a largish centrefire are surprised by the violence of the process. The reality doesn't match the sanitised picture they had in their minds and they are sobered by the experience. If well adjusted people are misled by popular culture what must it do to more fragile personalities?

[altnipper]

'He was denied normal childhood friendships and grew a sociopathic and frustrated loner'

Do you grow into a sociopath? My understanding is a sociopath or psychopath (interchangeable) is something you are or are not, there is a good book on this subject called 'The psycopath Test' by Jon Ronsen.

This is another very sad story. I wonder what unrestricted access to the internet has to play, also computer games where you blow peoples brains out. I know it's a big step but there must be a desenitisation to trauma playing a role. Don't get me wrong I like playing war games etc but not sure what effect they are having, I've been reasonably traumatised by some of the videos on the net I stay well clear of that area now, real war footage is brutal and it must have an effect on especially young persons brains - I've wondered if exposure to these on screen could cause ptsd in the long run?

I would say maybe restricting violence on screen may be more effective than restriting guns? Although to be honest I feel some restriction is necessary eg keeping the guns they want to shoot at gun ranges - do you need a semi auto m16 at home?

Edited December 15, 2012 by altnipper

[grimey121uk]

well how many serious shootings have happened since Dunblane a very small comparison compared to the USA ?? Changing the gun law seems to have worked here, don't get me wrong im a serious gun fanatic being an air rifle to even a cannon ! But enough is enough sometimes and time has shown its worked here so why not over in the USA .

 

Interestingly I have just been on the home office website and the facts show that gun crime has accelerated since the 60's. No drop was observed around hungerford or dumblane however didn't they only start licesing shotguns in 68?

 

If that's the case one could conclude that stricter shotgun laws have led to a massive increase in gun crime.....

Edited December 15, 2012 by grimey121uk

[Eskoky]

Guns don't kill people - people do - it is a saying that is repeated time and again but it is so true. A lunatic is capable of killing and will kill regardless of his or her access to weapons. There are so many other influences that cause these horrific events - how about looking at the gross inequality in America, the American dream which is un-reachable for the vast majority of people. The social fabric under strain (family breakdown, etc), these things have a much greater affect than simply access to weapons.

 

The right to carry guns is enshrined in the American constitution - and it is a good thing - much harder to oppress an armed population.

[Will Poon]

That's a good point it's the person holding the weapon that needs to be addressed, I'm in the food industry and we get inspected with no prior warning to our premises they check your records of safe food handling and talk to you about certain things to comply with the regulations , surely this can be done by the police by having spot checks at gun owners homes and also to make sure they've still got all there marbles intact.!

[shakari]

I'm appalled at the incident just like everyone else and my heart goes out to those who have lost loved ones but the fact is the American constitution says that citizens have the right to bear arms. It doesn't say the right to bear a limited number or type, just the right to bear arms. It also says that no-one has the right to change the constitution and if Obama tries to do so, I reckon he'll face all kinds of problems and what's more, I reckon he'll fail.

 

As has been said, it's not the guns that kill people, it's the people that kill people. I've operated in Africa for over 30 years and lived there for more than a decade and carried a handgun on a more or less daily basis. I never had to use it on a human being and only had to draw it on one or two occasions and just by drawing it, the problem ended. Perhaps a better way to prevent such incidents might be to improve security at such locations.

[gazzthompson]

I'm not going to pretend to completely understand the culture of gun ownership there, But having talked to many Americans this is what i got.I understand the frustration but i really feel people are not completely understanding what these firearms mean to a lot of people. They are not simply tools like we have here, to be licensed and granted at the will of the state. personal freedom is the utmost of importance to alot of people and this freedom is physically represented in the ability to own a firearm.

 

The second amendment is seen as just as important, if not more important (as it protects the other amendments) so a ban on firearms would be equivalent to a ban on something like freedom of speech. It would be a direct impingement into the personal freedom (Not just to own firearms, but to be a private citizen) of millions of people.

 

Now not everyone will think like this sure, But in a country with 88.8 guns per 100 residents then you can imagine a LOT of people will be directly effected. Even if a ban was made, Taking of these firearms would not be possible.

 

And in my opinion Laws like gun laws (And in my opinion drug laws but thats for another discussion) are just easy "fixes" for a ****** up society (Not just US society, ours as well) . its putting a plaster on an amputated leg, Its not going to hold for long.

Edited December 15, 2012 by gazzthompson

[Vipa]

much harder to oppress an armed population.

 

They seem to do a pretty effective job of it nontheless!

[Vipa]

That's a good point it's the person holding the weapon that needs to be addressed, I'm in the food industry and we get inspected with no prior warning to our premises they check your records of safe food handling and talk to you about certain things to comply with the regulations , surely this can be done by the police by having spot checks at gun owners homes and also to make sure they've still got all there marbles intact.!

 

Are you talking about here or in the UK?

 

If here... I think our gun laws are quite strict enough thank you very much without the need for Plod to show up on your doorstep whenever they feel like it and go through the house!

 

If you are talking the US..... what have you been smoking!!!! more than 300 million population, the vast majority of whome have guns... how the chuff would that work? perhaps employ a million or 3 firearms inspectors.. or even better, just take the existing state and federal police, stop them doing their jobs and re assign them to home spot firearm checks!!!!!

 

Good god.. some poo gets spouted on here!

[Will Poon]

So being an arm chair critic what would you suggest to the American president

[Mikaveli]

One aspect which really raises my hackles is the cultural addiction to guns as entertainment. Society (particularly in the US) is saturated with trivialised imagary of gun violence in films and computer games. That isn't healthy for anyone's mind. I find most nonshooters who get a chance to fire a largish centrefire are surprised by the violence of the process. The reality doesn't match the sanitised picture they had in their minds and they are sobered by the experience. If well adjusted people are misled by popular culture what must it do to more fragile personalities?

 

+1 mate.

 

It does feel like the "Call of Duty" generation is at least related to this kind of thing.

 

For a normal person, I don't think TV, movie and game violence turns you - but it's dangerous for mentally ill or vulnerable people. It's not healthy to get used to 'going through the motions' of spree killings, as we see in most modern first-person shooting games.

 

With all the Holywood films, all the characters are nonchalant about the use of firearms. There's no constructive / positive education about the proper and safe use of firearms in mainstream media.

 

This is a tragic event and my thoughts go out to the family and friends of the victims. :(

[mossy835]

you say it as many times as you like. guns dont kill people. people do.its still the guns they want two ban.you cant ban people.,

[Gimlet]

In societies that are desensitized to violent death life becomes cheap and expendible and this process is responsible for much misery in the world.

When Ken Biggley was kidnapped and executed in Iraq I knew school children who had the video of his beheading on their mobile phones. I was told by a lad who had seen it that while most kids were disgusted and traumatised by it many more were fascinated or even titivated. They would cluster round guffaw at it and send it to their friends. School children viewing snuff films for behind-the-desk laughs in lessons. What a world we are making...

[SneakyD]

I think they should seriously consider the Israeli solution, train and arm teachers.

[TwoJackRussells]

Take a child, any child, sit them in front of a TV showing violence and or a games console playing the latest `Kill All lifeforms You can` game for 8 hrs a day for say 15 years or more and we are suprised that things go wrong. Lets just hope its the last time.

[Richard V]

The media has been reporting that the police found 2 handguns at the scene of the crime. However, The law in CT states that one must be 21 years of age or older to own a handgun. Fox News and others mainstream media outlets have reported that the alleged shooter is 20 years of age.

 

http://www.secretsofthefed.com/guns-used-in-school-shooting-were-already-illegal-the-28-murders-were-too/

[overandunder2012]

I think they should seriously consider the Israeli solution, train and arm teachers.

it must be considered most teachers probably wouldnt want to be armed guards

[JonathanL]

I'm appalled at the incident just like everyone else and my heart goes out to those who have lost loved ones but the fact is the American constitution says that citizens have the right to bear arms. It doesn't say the right to bear a limited number or type, just the right to bear arms. It also says that no-one has the right to change the constitution and if Obama tries to do so, I reckon he'll face all kinds of problems and what's more, I reckon he'll fail.

 

As has been said, it's not the guns that kill people, it's the people that kill people. I've operated in Africa for over 30 years and lived there for more than a decade and carried a handgun on a more or less daily basis. I never had to use it on a human being and only had to draw it on one or two occasions and just by drawing it, the problem ended. Perhaps a better way to prevent such incidents might be to improve security at such locations.

 

It most certainly would. All of these mass shootings, and I do mean all of them, are carried out in places where the shooter will face no opposition. This is the case because these are places where the possession of firearms is legally or contractually prohibited; it is illegal to carry in or around a school or church and many shopping malls have their own private ban in place. You never, ever get mass shootings in gunshops, shooting ranges or police stations.

 

The best law that Obama could pass to stop school shootings would be to require every school to have few armed guards at all times. If that were the case then there would be no more school shootings. Nothing else is soing to work. You can't control 250 million firearms and billions of rounds of ammo when none of them are registered. Moreover, the Americans wouldn't hand them in anyway.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

it must be considered most teachers probably wouldnt want to be armed guards

 

And lots would. Apparently the kid got his mothers guns and she was a teacher at the school.

 

J.

[shakari]

I see/hear all the media calling for gun control but the truth is it doesn't work. It hasn't worked in the UK & it didn't prevent all those kids being killed in Norway.

 

Armed guards at schools etc will help but we also need to look at our own societies & medias etc. Children need proper parenting where they're taught right from wrong, good from bad and that bad behaviour has consequences. We also need to drastically reduce the daily diet of film and computer violence kids are exposed to on a daily basis.

 

We should also re-introduce proper punishments for criminals and if I had my way, I'd reintroduce the death penalty for murder, paedophilia and ALL terrorist related crimes.

[SneakyD]

it must be considered most teachers probably wouldnt want to be armed guards

You wouldn't need all the teachers armed. And if in some schools none of the teachers wanted to be armed, then hire armed guards.

[Lock Stock & Barrel]

I think they should seriously consider the Israeli solution, train and arm teachers.

 

Sorry, Israel arms its teachers for a completely different reason - if you've every been to the Israeli town of Beersheba near the Gaza border, you'd know why - and you cannot seriously attempt to conflate the US and Israel in this manner.

 

Also, if weapons were allowed into classrooms, you also make it easy for the day, God forbid, when a teacher "has a bad day" and decides to go postal - and you've just given him/her the means to do it.

 

it must be considered most teachers probably wouldn't want to be armed guards

 

Correct - why would the want to be? As bad and as seemingly regular as these shootings are, they are still (in the grand scheme of things) an aberration and not the norm. You might as well arm all UK citizens on the hypothetical basis that we may, one day, be invaded by persons hitherto unknown. 99.9999'% of teachers in the US will never be faced with this situation.

 

 

And lots would. Apparently the kid got his mothers guns and she was a teacher at the school.

 

J.

 

Would they [i.e. a lot of teachers would prefer to be armed in the classroom]? Sure about that? Do you have any empirical evidence whatsoever with which to support that claim? I suspect not.

 

True enough the lad took his mother's legally obtained, owned and registered weapons for his killing spree - published figures prove that the overwhelming majority on gun-related killings in the US are the result of legally-owned weapons, and not illegally acquired/possessed guns.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Lock Stock & Barrel

[Lock Stock & Barrel]

You wouldn't need all the teachers armed. And if in some schools none of the teachers wanted to be armed, then hire armed guards.

 

This system - i.e. armed security guards in schools - is already widely deployed in the US. Indeed, many inner-city schools have hand-held and walk-through metal detectors on the entrances to prevent the kids bringing weapons into the schools.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Lock Stock & Barrel

[SneakyD]

Sorry, Israel arms its teachers for a completely different reason - if you've every been to the Israeli town of Beersheba near the Gaza border, you'd know why - and you cannot seriously attempt to conflate the US and Israel in this manner.

Israel arms it teachers, to prevent the slaughter of it's children. It has found a successful way of dealing with school attacks.

 

 

Also, if weapons were allowed into classrooms, you also make it easy for the day, God forbid, when a teacher "has a bad day" and decides to go postal - and you've just given him/her the means to do it.

What's to stop that now? At least if others were trained and armed the tragedy could be lessened.

[Mikaveli]

Israel arms it teachers, to prevent the slaughter of it's children. It has found a successful way of dealing with school attacks.

 

What's to stop that now? At least if others were trained and armed the tragedy could be lessened.

 

Whether or not it would lessen this kind of tragedy, you have to admit that if you live in a society where you need armed guards in schools, something's going wrong!