Norma ammo?

[wildfowler.250]

I use Noma 75grain V Max in .243 flavour an my rifle loves them, but the fox don't. May not be cheap at £25 for 20 but i'm happy with them

so will stick with them. Brass is very good to and i keep all my fired carts ready for when i start my reloading.

 

DD

 

That's £10 quid cheaper than what I'm paying. So either you've got a sweet deal or I got screwed over

[deputy dog]

That's £10 quid cheaper than what I'm paying. So either you've got a sweet deal or I got screwed over

 

No mate no sweet deal or anything, iv been using them for about a year now. I pick a box or two up from Sportsman GC in Newport

when ever i go down there. They have always charged me what was on the box price an thats is £25 for 20. My gun loves them

thats why i stuck with them. I guess you may be getting a little screwed over from the Dealer you buy them for.

 

DD

Edited March 3, 2013 by deputy dog

[Gregthegreat]

sorry to de-rail this thread a little but norma rounds in 223 would people reccomend soft point or ballistic tip for foxing?

Have a look at this and make your own mind up... http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/187852-everything-you-always-wanted-to-know-about-bullets-but-were-afraid-to-ask/#entry1592869

[kent]

No mate no sweet deal or anything, iv been using them for about a year now. I pick a box or two up from Sportsman GC in Newport

when ever i go down there. They have always charged me what was on the box price an thats is £25 for 20. My gun loves them

thats why i stuck with them. I guess you may be getting a little screwed over from the Dealer you buy them for.

 

DD

dealers that can buy in large quantity get them cheaper and can sell them cheaper, dealers that don't deal with a national distributer or even another stock holding middle man also get them cheaper. its simple business

[JonathanL]

dealers that can buy in large quantity get them cheaper and can sell them cheaper, dealers that don't deal with a national distributer or even another stock holding middle man also get them cheaper. its simple business

 

There isn't a great deal of profit in ammo. Buying in bulk sometimes gets a dealer a discount but not much and 'bulk' usually means a lot. Ammo which is significantly cheaper at one place than another is almost always down to the fact that it's been in stock a long time and there have been several price rises since the dealer got it in. The price of £60/100 for the PPU 168grn match ammo on this thread is not a current price - Kranks, the importer, list it at £75 so selling it at that much less means you would turn a loss unless you'd had it a long time.

 

J.

[Vince Green]

There isn't a great deal of profit in ammo. Buying in bulk sometimes gets a dealer a discount but not much and 'bulk' usually means a lot. Ammo which is significantly cheaper at one place than another is almost always down to the fact that it's been in stock a long time and there have been several price rises since the dealer got it in. The price of £60/100 for the PPU 168grn match ammo on this thread is not a current price - Kranks, the importer, list it at £75 so selling it at that much less means you would turn a loss unless you'd had it a long time.

 

J.

 

Yes but there is something else going on with ammo prices and I'm not sure what. Kranks have been 'Kranking' the price of PPU ammo up in leaps and bounds over the past few years with no real explaination why. Exchange rates haven't altered that much. Another explaination given is the price of lead but thats just rubbish, theres only about a penny's worth of lead in a rifle bullet. I think its just down to the fact that they can get away with it.

 

One of the reasons a lot of dealers won't stock PPU is because of small profit margins

Edited March 5, 2013 by Vince Green

[kent]

There isn't a great deal of profit in ammo. Buying in bulk sometimes gets a dealer a discount but not much and 'bulk' usually means a lot. Ammo which is significantly cheaper at one place than another is almost always down to the fact that it's been in stock a long time and there have been several price rises since the dealer got it in. The price of £60/100 for the PPU 168grn match ammo on this thread is not a current price - Kranks, the importer, list it at £75 so selling it at that much less means you would turn a loss unless you'd had it a long time.

 

J.

Actually I am aware of the margins, not great at all but it becomes profitable at higher levels when bought direct in bulk. Look at firms like" just cartridges" the average smaller dealer might buy his from a stockholder in small quantity who in turn gets it via the official importer / distributer, who then gets it from the exporter or manufacturer. The bigger dealers cut more of those guys out, I am speaking currently to a dealer about biomass heating who is thinking of extending his ammo holding facility to buy in larger quantity. Bought in bulk you need to sell a lot and then we are talking chickens and eggs

[kent]

Yes but there is something else going on with ammo prices and I'm not sure what. Kranks have been 'Kranking' the price of PPU ammo up in leaps and bounds over the past few years with no real explaination why. Exchange rates haven't altered that much. Another explaination given is the price of lead but thats just rubbish, theres only about a penny's worth of lead in a rifle bullet. I think its just down to the fact that they can get away with it.

 

One of the reasons a lot of dealers won't stock PPU is because of small profit margins

is this on the basis of total retail price being lower? because surely those dealers are on the same margin / discount percentage for Seirra Bullets and anything else from Kranks? All things imported have risen dramatically, to the extent that some goods have come effectively off the shelf to uk buyers. Import and export is a funny business and its also about more than current exchange rates, its certainly better if your able to import stuff and then export stuff back- problem being we don't make much stuff here now

[nicknicknick]

good stuff above, i was looking at RWS rounds for my 243 as above, Norma are not cheap. Has anyone used the RWS stuff? i always thought they were more target based. i dont really want to use anything that is not designed for the job as i do a fair bit of lamping.

[JonathanL]

Yes but there is something else going on with ammo prices and I'm not sure what. Kranks have been 'Kranking' the price of PPU ammo up in leaps and bounds over the past few years with no real explaination why. Exchange rates haven't altered that much. Another explaination given is the price of lead but thats just rubbish, theres only about a penny's worth of lead in a rifle bullet. I think its just down to the fact that they can get away with it.

 

One of the reasons a lot of dealers won't stock PPU is because of small profit margins

 

Everything is going up, I'm afraid. Yes, lead prices have risen, so have copper prices and there is a lot of copper in a rifle round. Also, ammo is heavy and the price of transportation has gone up due to the cost of fuel. It's also hazardous so can only be transported by certain methods and if it has an expanding bullet then the transportation cost within the UK goes ujp again as it has to be sent via a section 5 carrier..

 

You have to look at the bigger picture as well. There is a production capacity issue. Worldwide there is a shortage of production capacty. The US military swallows up a lot of ammo all on it's own and if a factory is producing military ammo it can't produce commercial ammo. It may not be PPU ammo that the US military are using but they will be one of the ones filling the gap in commercial ammo. That drives the price up as more people are wanting to buy ammo.

 

In defence of Kranks, they have to lay out an awful lot of money to buy the ammo in so it's not reasonable that they should do so for very little profit. Things like .223 and .308 will fly out the door but most of the other chamberings won't and that represents a lot of dead money which could be sitting there doing nothing for a year or more.

 

PPU Partizan ammo is still the most reasonably priced ammo around today. There is some cheaper military surplus ammo about, some quite good like the German DAG stuff, but there isn't that much. At least not which you know will be a regular supply. Any other commercial ammo is quite a bit more expenseive.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

Actually I am aware of the margins, not great at all but it becomes profitable at higher levels when bought direct in bulk. Look at firms like" just cartridges" the average smaller dealer might buy his from a stockholder in small quantity who in turn gets it via the official importer / distributer, who then gets it from the exporter or manufacturer. The bigger dealers cut more of those guys out, I am speaking currently to a dealer about biomass heating who is thinking of extending his ammo holding facility to buy in larger quantity. Bought in bulk you need to sell a lot and then we are talking chickens and eggs

 

Yes, shotgun ammo is a bit different. As you say, unless you shift absolute shed loads then it usually isn't worth it and because they are very bulky you need a lot of space. If you do shift a lot of them though you can make reasonable money and sell them at sensible prices. Also, buying in 10K shotgun cartridges is usually much cheaper than buying in 10K centrefire rifle rounds.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

good stuff above, i was looking at RWS rounds for my 243 as above, Norma are not cheap. Has anyone used the RWS stuff? i always thought they were more target based. i dont really want to use anything that is not designed for the job as i do a fair bit of lamping.

 

RWS has a very good reputation as far as their rifle ammo goes. However, their Geko .22rf rifle ammo does not work (so they say) with semi-autos - or at least they won't guarantee it will) and their .38 Special ammo well.....the least said on that subject the better!

 

J.

[Vince Green]

The US military swallows up a lot of ammo all on it's own and if a factory is producing military ammo it can't produce commercial ammo.

 

J.

The American Government makes all its own ammunition, it has several huge plants, Lake City being one of them. Its part of its policy not to use any commercial sources so it can't be compromised or sabataged. This is one of the myths I have heard said many times. Things like the ammo has gone up because of the Gulf War/ Iraq / Afganistan but it makes no sense. Its just stories told by the bloke behind the counter in the gun shop.

Britain too makes all its own ammunition at ROF Radway Green and doesn't buy any from commercial sources.

[Redgum]

good stuff above, i was looking at RWS rounds for my 243 as above, Norma are not cheap. Has anyone used the RWS stuff? i always thought they were more target based. i dont really want to use anything that is not designed for the job as i do a fair bit of lamping.

I reload all my own ammo these days but a mate only uses RWS 100gr in 243 and won't use nowt else.

[njc110381]

I don't really see the point in spending that much on ammo to be honest. Norma is bloody expensive. In fairness to them I've never heard a bad word about their quality - I think they go just that little bit further than a lot of makers to get their rounds shooting just right and as already suggested, their brass is extremely good. The trouble is, that perfection really isn't needed in the field. If it'll shoot a 1" group at 100 yards then it's good enough. The bullet used is far more important than that last half inch of accuracy.

 

If I didn't home load I may perhaps consider it for a deer rifle as I like my results to be spot on and don't fire that many rounds. But for a fox gun, anything that makes a big hole and hits them at the right end will do nicely!

 

Home loading is the way to go. You can make a high end premium quality round with a first class bonded bullet for around half the price of premium loaded ammo. Of course my Barnes TSX loads cost a bit more than a Prvi SP, but when you look at the bullet cost/quality it's not surprising. A bad bullet loses a lot of meat on a deer. It's worth paying for something reliable.

[JonathanL]

The American Government makes all its own ammunition, it has several huge plants, Lake City being one of them. Its part of its policy not to use any commercial sources so it can't be compromised or sabataged. This is one of the myths I have heard said many times. Things like the ammo has gone up because of the Gulf War/ Iraq / Afganistan but it makes no sense. Its just stories told by the bloke behind the counter in the gun shop.

Britain too makes all its own ammunition at ROF Radway Green and doesn't buy any from commercial sources.

 

I've The story I've heard (which may not be true or only partly true, etc) is that Federal makes ammo for the US military. When they get an order in they stop everything and make military ammo. The US military only give them 18 month contracts. Federal have said, apparently, that if they get a five year contract then they'll build a new plant just to make military ammo.

 

This is quite an interesting article. I knew that Lake City mde a lot of ammo but that's a LOT of ammo;

 

http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/SepOct10/spectrum_smallarms_ammo.html

 

However, it mentions that 300m rounds are still contracted out. 300m rounds is a huge amount of ammo. It also mentions that many of the components are only sourced few a few sources and some of the very important chemicals to which go in to the priming compund can only be sourced in places like Brazil, Mexico and China. Perhaps there is more commercial production of military ammo these days as that article is a couple of years out of date now?

 

I'm quite surprised by the fact that the Americans have put so many eggs in one basket. Anything which puts LC out of business would stop their entire military small arms ammo production. In fact there are two targets because you have a choice of putting either LC or Radford in Virginia which produces the nitrocellulose for the propellant out of business and the US military is stuffed. I'd have thought they would have had a few production facilities scattered about the place to mitigate any problems.

 

J.

[Vince Green]

There is something in US "law" that means the US govenment has to have the capacity to produce its own ammunition and that goes right up to cannon shells and cruise missiles. Don't ask me what law because I haven't got a clue.

 

But when the d1ckhead behind the counter in my local gunshop tells me my ammo has gone up because " the war in afganistan is causing shortages" I know he is telling lies and its all so pathetic because its such a load of rubbish. Incidentally I am told that RG is not even working flat out at the moment, even with the war(s)

 

Ammo production is still under utilised. The Danish military factories are producing 5.56 which is being dumped straight onto the surplus market as Sept 2012 production simply to keep the factory ticking over.

 

http://www.ammoman.com/p/412/556x45-62-grain-danish-by-ama

Edited March 6, 2013 by Vince Green

[Bewsher500]

Kranks bring PPU in so any hike can be attributed to them increasing their margins or the manufacturers increasing theirs.

 

to say there is no margin in ammo is not strictly correct.

most trade prices for ammunition/components present a circa 40% margin for the retailer.

now if they have a swanky high street shop to pay for that is going to get spent quickly but many don't.

they just don't sell the volume required to produce a substantial profit figure that a 40% margin will create.

 

all very well making 40p in the pound but if you only sell £10k worth of product you only make £4k!

[al4x]

I don't really see the point in spending that much on ammo to be honest. Norma is bloody expensive. In fairness to them I've never heard a bad word about their quality - I think they go just that little bit further than a lot of makers to get their rounds shooting just right and as already suggested, their brass is extremely good. The trouble is, that perfection really isn't needed in the field. If it'll shoot a 1" group at 100 yards then it's good enough. The bullet used is far more important than that last half inch of accuracy.

 

If I didn't home load I may perhaps consider it for a deer rifle as I like my results to be spot on and don't fire that many rounds. But for a fox gun, anything that makes a big hole and hits them at the right end will do nicely!

 

Home loading is the way to go. You can make a high end premium quality round with a first class bonded bullet for around half the price of premium loaded ammo. Of course my Barnes TSX loads cost a bit more than a Prvi SP, but when you look at the bullet cost/quality it's not surprising. A bad bullet loses a lot of meat on a deer. It's worth paying for something reliable.

 

The thing is though people who moan about cost are using a lot of ammo on paper, personally foxing wise norma .223 is a bargain even at £1 a fox however when you talk £20 a fox as 19 shots were on paper its a different matter. Deer wise the same deal its not an issue if you are shooting deer I'd prefer to have a good quality bullet as the cost of it is peanuts compared to everything else.

Some of my norma brass is close to 10x reloaded now so not far off the lapua I use in the .243

[kent]

Minimun order quantity for PPU ammo is 20,000 rounds so how long do you think it is going to take to sell all the 7mm-08 they just ordered? Yes , quite a long time. Some products move fast, others slow but at least Kranks invest in shooters although buying 20,000 rounds of 300 win mag in 145gr FMJ might not have been the best choice of bullet?

 

OOps, sounds like someone made a boo boo

[Bewsher500]

Minimun order quantity for PPU ammo is 20,000 rounds so how long do you think it is going to take to sell all the 7mm-08 they just ordered? Yes , quite a long time. Some products move fast, others slow but at least Kranks invest in shooters although buying 20,000 rounds of 300 win mag in 145gr FMJ might not have been the best choice of bullet?

 

it may be

but I very much doubt it is 20,000 of any ONE cartridge/calibre

[kent]

Nop, 20,000 of any specific new load. I asked on monday and its nothing new, been like that since forever

 

The 145gr fmj 300 win mag that have been there for 2-3 years must have been a blooper as i cant imagine why anyone would use such a load

 

wonder what the scrap price is on that

[JonathanL]

wonder what the scrap price is on that

 

Brass is next to nothing - EVEN IF you can find a scrap yard who will take it and very, very few will. I know of a chap who actually owns a scrap yard and who has an oil drum half filled with 7.62 brass that no reprocessor will take off him!

 

J.

[kent]

Brass is next to nothing - EVEN IF you can find a scrap yard who will take it and very, very few will. I know of a chap who actually owns a scrap yard and who has an oil drum half filled with 7.62 brass that no reprocessor will take off him!

 

J.

I was joking mate as he will never shift it

[highseas]

Thanks guys..

 

im useing sako arrow head at the moment but was thinking if i get to go after some munty in the near futcher are the ballistic tips suitable or when i run out of the sako should i re zero with norma soft points and stick with that for fox and munty...

i used sako arrow heads in my 223 for years on both fox and roe their very good bullets i wouldent chop and change too much....if iaint broke...