kennym Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 Ok,so by your own logic(more guns+more dead people)surely less guns=less dead people.If you truly believe this no doubt you'll be handing yours in then.After all,it's the price we must pay. While compiling your statistics did you take into account the number of guns in circulation in that same 100,000 population in both the USA and the UK?I doubt three shootings as a percentage of all those firearms in circulation in the same 100,000 is very significant to any but the relatives.Statistics can be used and abused to satisfy the agenda on both sides of a debate. Did you also ask yourself why,in those states where legislation is pretty similar to ours, such as Washington DC,shootings are more commonplace than many other states with more relaxed legislation? Did you also consider that despite Hungerford,Dunblane and West Cumbria,the percentage of shootings with legitimately held firearms as a percentage of the total shootings in the UK is extremely low;somewhere around the 2% mark unless I'm mistaken? its apparent you didn't understand me whilst you were upholding my very point in your final statement, implying tight gun control not a gun ban is effective Aint it funny how we have all banged in with an opinion (me included) on this story, almost as if we are yanks talking about our America. I cant believe they have forums debating our major topics of the day like man love. What the hell is this to do with us? I'm interested in guns NOT Americans, this is my motivation for comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 (edited) implying tight gun control not a gun ban is effective Are you implying tight gun control is effective,as opposed to a ban?If you are,then how come gun control isn't working?Illegally held firearms,which account for the vast majority of shootings in this country,are unaffected by either controls or bans. If they're ineffective in this country,with its stifling controls,how effective do you think it will be in the USA,where figures of firearms owned stand around the 300million mark?And that's just those that are known of! I wonder why. Me too Gordon R,me too. Edited March 10, 2013 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 (edited) Statistics and graphs are frankly irrelevant when some people value personal freedom over perceived safety. Obviously there is a limit to that, and peoples limit varies but Americans seem to be more in favour of personal freedom than the safety side of things. I personally am very envious of the mentality, too many in this country are willing to give up personal liberty for nanny state ****. Edited March 10, 2013 by gazzthompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 (edited) The American pro gun lobby widely reports that since our handgun ban we have undergone a massive crime wave and often show footage of the riots a few years back and those buildings burning out of control. Slightly bending the truth I would say. Actually the murder rate in UK is falling and has been for 12 years as is gun crime and most forms of violent crime I have been asked about it several times when over there, people think we are frightened to go out. Edited March 10, 2013 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennym Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 Are you implying tight gun control is effective,as opposed to a ban?If you are,then how come gun control isn't working?Illegally held firearms,which account for the vast majority of shootings in this country,are unaffected by either controls or bans. If they're ineffective in this country,with its stifling controls,how effective do you think it will be in the USA,where figures of firearms owned stand around the 300million mark?And that's just those that are known of! Me too Gordon R,me too. It really is shocking that you post without any idea of the facts most gun crime by a massive margine is commited with ilegal guns, this is the FACT that most UK gun lobbyists use to fight tighter gun laws in the UK, I dont mean to offend but you are tottaly wrong and seam to post what you want to be true, not the truth. Yes recent high profile killings have been carried out with legal but that doesnt change the ratio of legal to ilegal gun crime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 It really is shocking that you post without any idea of the facts most gun crime by a massive margine is commited with ilegal guns, Isn't that what I just said?! 'Illegally held firearms....account for the vast majority of shootings in this country....'Am I missing something here? If you acknowledge that most gun crime is committed with illegally held guns,then how can gun control be working?Illegally held guns, by their definition, are uncontrolled!Neither the Government nor the Police can prevent people with the intent,from getting hold of guns,so how can gun control be working?I can't make it any simpler than that! What this means is that the vast majority of the general public in this country are rendered defenceless BY LAW when confronted by those who act outside of the law(hence the term outlaws) with illegally held UNCONTROLLED weapons. They have acknowledged in the States that the authorities are powerless to prevent this happening in their schools,so what they are proposing are measures to reduce the risk of this happening by the implementation of 'carry' laws to extend to schools.If you believe that severe firearms controls are going to reduce the risk of this happening in the states(or anywhere else),then frankly you're deluded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 (edited) Isn't that what I just said?! 'Illegally held firearms....account for the vast majority of shootings in this country....'Am I missing something here? If you acknowledge that most gun crime is committed with illegally held guns,then how can gun control be working?Illegally held guns, by their definition, are uncontrolled!Neither the Government nor the Police can prevent people with the intent,from getting hold of guns,so how can gun control be working?I can't make it any simpler than that! What this means is that the vast majority of the general public in this country are rendered defenceless BY LAW when confronted by those who act outside of the law(hence the term outlaws) with illegally held UNCONTROLLED weapons. They have acknowledged in the States that the authorities are powerless to prevent this happening in their schools,so what they are proposing are measures to reduce the risk of this happening by the implementation of 'carry' laws to extend to schools.If you believe that severe firearms controls are going to reduce the risk of this happening in the states(or anywhere else),then frankly you're deluded. Just to play devils advocate (I'm good at that!) You are quite correct... banning legally held handguns has not helped to reduce gun crime with illegally held firearms but then, why would it? That was never the intention.. What it has done is reduced the number of deaths, and in particular, mass shootings with legally held handguns. They have reduced to zero... the change in the law has achieved it's goal admirably! You have mentioned (as many do) the old argument that, by imposing draconian gun laws, we, the law abiding citizens are defensless against those who would use illegal guns against us but in reality, in this country anyway, outside of the innercity gangs, attacks and incidents with firearms are exceedingly rare... statistically you are probably far more likely to fall out of an aeroplane than be threatened with a gun so in reality, you would be far better packing a parachute than a side-arm! I'm not for one minute saying that couldn't change in the future as society inevitably breaks down but right here, right now, unless you have gravitated towards the entirely wrong folk, you are blessed in that you live in a relatively very safe, peaceful and civilised nation. You don't have to fear for your life when you go out, you don't have to fear for your life when you go to bed etc... there are some places in the world where that simply isn't true... S.A. is one such place that springs to mind... if we lived there then I think you have a very valid point... but we don't. As for the hand-gun ban specifically.... On the one hand I miss my pistol shooting, I'd love my Beretta 92 back but then, on the other, I don't really miss it at all and can happily live without it! It's a strange one With regards to the OP, the USA have a very big problem... there are just too many guns in circulation and the authorities have no idea who has them or where they are. Firearms controls may work but it would take decades or longer, possibly even a couple of generations, before the mindset changed and ownership controls were effective. Even if there were an outright overnight ban, it wouldn't stop potential mass killings, all it would do is stop mass killings with 'legally held' guns! The reason why it wouldn't work in the US but did work here is because in the UK we didn't have a massive stockpile of handguns that no-one knew the whereabouts of... the authorities knew where they all were and so a ban was easy to implement and the results could be pretty much assured. Edited March 11, 2013 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 Vipa - interesting post, which I cannot really fault. My view is that America is a different situation to the UK. Guns are far more prevalent and they are attempting to do something to stop massacres. I agree with the move, but know that it will only take one occasion where it goes wrong for the world and his wife to pile in - criticising them. kenny - rambling rarely convinces sceptics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 One thing that people keep missing is that a lot of the shootings in the US arise out of trivial domestic disputes within the family and neighbours arguing. They are not about people defending themselves from serious criminals bent on mayhem. A lot of these deaths are unnecessary and pointless spur of the moment incidents Its often not about crime its about stupidity with tragic consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 (edited) The effectiveness of a ban is of course relevant, but It doesn't take into account ideology and culture. Even if you could 100% prove various bans would work in the states, Many firearm owners (Of which a large %age of the population are) would probably still be against it in favour of more personal freedom. People abuse rights , we don't really have any in the UK and the ones we do have are limited, Americans seem more unwilling to lose/limit theirs because of the abuse of a minority. whereas Brits seem more than willing to limit things, such as speech for example, for the "great good" Edited March 11, 2013 by gazzthompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 Personally, given the overall situation with firearms in the USA, i think the only way to *try* to stop or at least reduce the casualties when these events occur is to have the ability to neutralise the threat as soon as possible.. sadly, the only way that can be done is to have a permanent armed presence in the schools and colleges... It needs to be 2 tierd.... you don't want every school with a brigade permanently encamped.. it is intimidating and will have a profoundly negative psychological effect on the children but you do need a visible deterent, so 1 or 2 armed security guards. That wouldn't however be enough to defend against a determined assailant and therefore, providing they are thoroughly trained, teachers carrying concealed is an acceptable and probably sensible move.. BUT... it will only take one incident where a teacher goes on the rampage against the kids and all hell will break loose!!! Sadly, the Americans are their own worst enemies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 what this comes down to is will teachers being armed in school help versus the risk of accidents and also if they were to try and shoot a gunman in a school building would they run just as much risk of killing children themselves. The ideology is there that of course it will help in practice will it save lives and the answer is who knows. yanks all want to be armed while they do their shooting statistics will keep going up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 what this comes down to is will teachers being armed in school help versus the risk of accidents and also if they were to try and shoot a gunman in a school building would they run just as much risk of killing children themselves. The ideology is there that of course it will help in practice will it save lives and the answer is who knows. yanks all want to be armed while they do their shooting statistics will keep going up I am always reminded of an episode of star trek wher Kirk et al beam down to a planet which has been influenced by a book brought down by an earlier star ship visit all about the mob and gangters of the 20s and 30s.. they are all horified that everyone is walking the streets armed and it does look sinister and completely rediculous... and yet... here we are 40 or 50 years down the line and that's exactly what they are heading towards! completely bonkers! I blame Hollywood! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 When you see video clips of US policemen actually trying to shoot a subject you really wonder which is more dangerous the person or the officers standing round letting off shots at will. I'd love to see some stats on how many manage to shoot each other or bystanders as once the situation gets to a certain point they seem to loose all thinking of safety Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 Maybe its irrational of me but I think I'd rather have a conceal carry civilian than an American cop in a bad situation requiring shooting. Especially if I was in LA or NYC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCD Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 I thought the point of concealed carry was that you didn't know who is armed have they not just made the teacher the first target? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzthompson Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 I thought the point of concealed carry was that you didn't know who is armed have they not just made the teacher the first target? Seems better than the alternative, knowing 100% the teacher won't be armed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 (edited) Just to play devils advocate (I'm good at that!) You are quite correct... banning legally held handguns has not helped to reduce gun crime with illegally held firearms but then, why would it? That was never the intention.. What it has done is reduced the number of deaths, and in particular, mass shootings with legally held handguns. They have reduced to zero... the change in the law has achieved it's goal admirably! You have mentioned (as many do) the old argument that, by imposing draconian gun laws, we, the law abiding citizens are defensless against those who would use illegal guns against us but in reality, in this country anyway, outside of the innercity gangs, attacks and incidents with firearms are exceedingly rare... statistically you are probably far more likely to fall out of an aeroplane than be threatened with a gun so in reality, you would be far better packing a parachute than a side-arm! I'm not for one minute saying that couldn't change in the future as society inevitably breaks down but right here, right now, unless you have gravitated towards the entirely wrong folk, you are blessed in that you live in a relatively very safe, peaceful and civilised nation. You don't have to fear for your life when you go out, you don't have to fear for your life when you go to bed etc... there are some places in the world where that simply isn't true... S.A. is one such place that springs to mind... if we lived there then I think you have a very valid point... but we don't. As for the hand-gun ban specifically.... On the one hand I miss my pistol shooting, I'd love my Beretta 92 back but then, on the other, I don't really miss it at all and can happily live without it! It's a strange one With regards to the OP, the USA have a very big problem... there are just too many guns in circulation and the authorities have no idea who has them or where they are. Firearms controls may work but it would take decades or longer, possibly even a couple of generations, before the mindset changed and ownership controls were effective. Even if there were an outright overnight ban, it wouldn't stop potential mass killings, all it would do is stop mass killings with 'legally held' guns! The reason why it wouldn't work in the US but did work here is because in the UK we didn't have a massive stockpile of handguns that no-one knew the whereabouts of... the authorities knew where they all were and so a ban was easy to implement and the results could be pretty much assured. Fair enough Vipa.I can agree with much of what you say,but I don't think I've made any reference to handguns in this thread,though without looking,I may be wrong.However,I can see your point,but the only thing preventing another mass shooting in this country,either in or out of school,and with either a legally or illegally held gun,is a lack of intent.Gun control has nothing to do with it. There's nothing in it for your average inner city 'gangsta' to shoot up a school,not even for his own 'respec',and I was going to make a reference to the numbers of kids who have been killed by firearms since the handgun ban,but if the figures are there,I can't find them.Even a book I own regarding Operation Trident,although cataloging many 'black on black' shootings(including children) gives no definitive figures. Regarding handguns,I don't so much miss my pistol shooting as resent the way the media and in particular political expediency played its part in their banning.I could still go pistol shooting,but the desire isn't really there.Far too many restrictions. Agree mostly with your last paragraph,especially that regarding that the authorities knew where all legally held handguns were located,making their banning much simpler.Interesting to note that the Canadians have just recently done away with the need to register rifles. Edited March 11, 2013 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennym Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 (edited) Yes you are missing something if guns are readily available to every one there would be more in circulation and easier to get hold of i would therefore be easer not just for criminals but for unstable people or even just wound-up people to get hold of a gun and shoot someone, where as now they might just punch then in the face,..... unpleasant but not fatal Fair is fair i apologise i miss read & thought you were claiming most crime was done with legal guns my mistake ooo program on about Americana's addiction to guns off to watch it....... back for the next round. Edited March 12, 2013 by kennym Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 Yes you are missing something if guns are readily available to every one there would be more in circulation and easier to get hold of i would therefore be easer not just for criminals but for unstable people or even just wound-up people to get hold of a gun and shoot someone, where as now they might just punch then in the face,..... unpleasant but not fatal Far is far i apologise i miss read & thought you were claiming most crime was done with legal guns my mistake ooo program on about Americana's addiction to guns off to watch it....... back for the next round. Channel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennym Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 bbc1 prepair to be shocked to the soul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 Yes you are missing something if guns are readily available to every one there would be more in circulation and easier to get hold of i would therefore be easer not just for criminals but for unstable people or even just wound-up people to get hold of a gun and shoot someone, where as now they might just punch then in the face,..... unpleasant but not fatal I give up!How does the saying go? 'None so blind as those who will not see'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 (edited) Fair enough Vipa.I can agree with much of what you say,but I don't think I've made any reference to handguns in this thread,though without looking,I may be wrong.However,I can see your point,but the only thing preventing another mass shooting in this country,either in or out of school,and with either a legally or illegally held gun,is a lack of intent.Gun control has nothing to do with it. There's nothing in it for your average inner city 'gangsta' to shoot up a school,not even for his own 'respec',and I was going to make a reference to the numbers of kids who have been killed by firearms since the handgun ban,but if the figures are there,I can't find them.Even a book I own regarding Operation Trident,although cataloging many 'black on black' shootings(including children) gives no definitive figures. Regarding handguns,I don't so much miss my pistol shooting as resent the way the media and in particular political expediency played its part in their banning.I could still go pistol shooting,but the desire isn't really there.Far too many restrictions. Agree mostly with your last paragraph,especially that regarding that the authorities knew where all legally held handguns were located,making their banning much simpler.Interesting to note that the Canadians have just recently done away with the need to register rifles. You can't compare Canada to the USA though... in Canada it is a hunting mindset just like us here, in america it is a self defense mindset... ... if someone broke into our house, probably the last thing we would think of doing is reaching for the gun cabinet keys... In the USA that's the first thing they do.... well.. actually it's probably not... the guns will no doubt be just left lying on a table somewhere cocked with one up the spout! Edited March 12, 2013 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 You can't compare Canada to the USA though... in Canada it is a hunting mindset just like us here, in america it is a self defense mindset... ... if someone broke into our house, probably the last thing we would think of doing is reaching for the gun cabinet keys... In the USA that's the first thing they do.... well.. actually it's probably not... the guns will no doubt be just left lying on a table somewhere cocked with one up the spout! I wasn't really trying to compare the two to be honest,although you have made an interesting comparison between Canada and the UK.Two countries with a 'hunting mindset',yet Canada has had eleven school shootings that I'm aware of,albeit none with as high a body count as those in the USA,nor in fact the UK! I agree with the abysmal record of firearm security in the USA however,a loaded gun on a table top is no more a self-defence weapon than one locked away in a cabinet.If it isn't on you personally,then from a self-defence viewpoint,it's of little value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 Vipa - I suspect Kenny is watching something on one of the children's channels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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