JonathanL Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 mine says "shall be used for shooting vermin and ground game and for zeroing on ranges, or land deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the area where the land is situated and over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot".....seeing as i only shoot over one farm at the moment alls fine, but if i got an offer elsewhere how do i stand? Well, the word 'shall' means that you must do something. So, you must use it for shooting vermin and ground game, or on land deemed suiatable by the chief officer of police over which you have permission to shoot. If you do none of these things then you are in brech of the condition. If you do any one of them then you comply with the condition. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 (edited) Have a natter with your firearms officer JohnathanL and see what he says. I would if I were you. You can be as clever as you like with wording but...... Why am I being ''clever'? All I'm doing is reading what it says and applying the accepted rules of English interpretation to the words. The condition says that you must do something but does not prevent you from doing other things. That is what it says and you cannot avoid that fact. If you think that the condition in some way restricts you to doing only those things it mentions then please demonstrate why that is the case. J. Edited March 17, 2013 by JonathanL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craftycarper Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 i will do it the right way and email them, best have it confirmed. As for the your answer which was really just another question and not really a answer its a touch of ever decreasing circles i think..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 i will do it the right way and email them, best have it confirmed. As for the your answer which was really just another question and not really a answer its a touch of ever decreasing circles i think..... I beg to differ. I answered your question and didn't raise any other questions at all. The fact remains that the condition tells you what you must do. Nothing in the way in which it is worded could sensibly be construed as restricting you to doing only what it says in the condition. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Poon Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Here we go again .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craftycarper Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 nah as above just trying to be clever no answer really just playing with words, best get it straight from the horses mouth, but in plain simple english. Wording can be interpreted in many ways by many different people, thanks for trying though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swiss.tony Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 That's fair bit of shooting Swiss, do you think the amount of rounds you used was the main influence with your firearms dept to issue you with an Open ticket? Was there any other factors that made them decide to grant and Open ticket, e.g. lot's of permissions on land(s) they did not have on file. sorry mate for late reply i had a bit of a heads up from kid who got me into rifles i had 7 farms covering say 6000 arces with shot gun and air rifle so i put 1 a month for 7 months on the 8 month i stuck variation for 22.250 and they said were sick of your name on are desk all time and opened it up for every thing including c/f even tho id never had one so happy days the 4 thousand rounds were used mainly on rabbits as there were 1000s not so many left now . got a mate who was Evan worse than me on phone weekly to them he"s had over 30 rifles in 3 years he wants a 30.06 don't ask he don't Evan shoot deer but farmer is soft as owt and will sign anything he asks for and he"s well in with cops takes 2 of the firearms teams out foxing so has its benefits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amazed Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 I will be poping mine in shortly for a variation. Will go for an open cert at the same time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clayduster Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 The meaning of "Shall" is perfectly clear. In common, or ordinary parlance, and in its ordinary signification, the term 'shall' is a word of command, and one which has always, or which must be given a compulsory meaning; as denoting obligation. It has a peremptory meaning, and it is generally imperative or mandatory. It has the invariable significance of excluding the idea of discretion, and has the significance of operating to impose a duty which may be enforced, particularly if public policy is in favor of this meaning, or when addressed to public officials, or where a public interest is involved, or where the public or persons have rights which ought to be exercised or enforced, unless a contrary intent appears; but the context ought to be very strongly persuasive before it is softened into a mere permission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Lets face it if it was voluntary why write it at all, the description above makes sense and johno doesn't. Anyone ask your feo before taking his advice as in this instance the advice is very bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCD Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Not wishing to fuel the fire but my dispatch pistols are not restricted to any peice of land it is worded as such The .22,.9mm and the .357 pistol slaughtering instruments shall be used in connection with the humane killing of animals in their duties as a gamekeeper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Essex Hunter Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Not wishing to fuel the fire but my dispatch pistols are not restricted to any peice of land it is worded as such The .22,.9mm and the .357 pistol slaughtering instruments shall be used in connection with the humane killing of animals in their duties as a gamekeeper Feet on the ground comments are just what are needed; there is only one person adding fuel to the fire….. We have yet to see what wording is on J’s cert. May be a club official or the oh my mate’s got a cert type…However until the wording is on the screen then it is like a post with out pictures…not worth a lot. TEH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 I'd suggest it most likely says shall be used on ranges but by that definition apparently he can use it anywhere on any quarry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 The meaning of "Shall" is perfectly clear. In common, or ordinary parlance, and in its ordinary signification, the term 'shall' is a word of command, and one which has always, or which must be given a compulsory meaning; as denoting obligation. It has a peremptory meaning, and it is generally imperative or mandatory. It has the invariable significance of excluding the idea of discretion, and has the significance of operating to impose a duty which may be enforced, particularly if public policy is in favor of this meaning, or when addressed to public officials, or where a public interest is involved, or where the public or persons have rights which ought to be exercised or enforced, unless a contrary intent appears; but the context ought to be very strongly persuasive before it is softened into a mere permission. So, it means that you must do something but does not restrict you to doing only that thing. You can do other things as well as long as you do the thing it says. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Lets face it if it was voluntary why write it at all, the description above makes sense and johno doesn't. Anyone ask your feo before taking his advice as in this instance the advice is very bad. I've never said it was voluntary. In fact, I have said very specifically that it isn't - you must do what the condition says. However, there is nothing in that condition which says you can do only those things that the conidtion mentions. There just isn't, read it if you don't believe me. When a condition is meant to restict you to certain activites then it says so by the use of the word 'only'. This is the case with conditions relating to humane dispatch pistols, guns on club certificates and expanding ammo and the missiles for such ammo. Sometimes conditions allow you to possess guns without ammo or on the condition that they are not fired. Again, these conditions use words like 'not' and 'no' If the condition is intended to restrict you to shooting only on particular pieces of land then why does it not similar words? And, by the way, I'm not giving 'advice' to anyone, I'm merely pointing out a particular piece of wording and throwing the matter open for debate. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Not wishing to fuel the fire but my dispatch pistols are not restricted to any peice of land it is worded as such The .22,.9mm and the .357 pistol slaughtering instruments shall be used in connection with the humane killing of animals in their duties as a gamekeeper That's interesting, actually. All of the conditions I've seen relating to humane dispatch pistols use the word 'only' in them - The pistol shall be used (only) in connection with the humane killing of animals', or words to that effect. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Ok Jonathan I've dug out my old ticket and its irrelevant what you are saying as that isn't how it is written this conclusively answers your statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Feet on the ground comments are just what are needed; there is only one person adding fuel to the fire….. We have yet to see what wording is on J’s cert. May be a club official or the oh my mate’s got a cert type…However until the wording is on the screen then it is like a post with out pictures…not worth a lot. TEH I fail to see why my cert has anything to do with it? Why does it make any difference to the point at hand. Whgat does it have to say (in your opinion) for what I'm saying to be right or wrong? I can't see the connection, to be honest. J. I'd suggest it most likely says shall be used on ranges but by that definition apparently he can use it anywhere on any quarry If it did say that and I used it elsewhere then what offence would I commit? J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 If it did say that and I used it elsewhere then what offence would I commit? J. as per whats written on tickets the failure to comply is 6 months imprisonment / or a fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCD Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 That's interesting, actually. All of the conditions I've seen relating to humane dispatch pistols use the word 'only' in them - The pistol shall be used (only) in connection with the humane killing of animals', or words to that effect. J. Going by the near farcical way in which my cert renewal was handled it could well be an omission on their part unfortunately I don't have my old cert to compare it to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) as per whats written on tickets the failure to comply is 6 months imprisonment / or a fine You mean breaching the condition of the cert? I would agree with you if the condition used the word 'only' but it doesn't. Some conditions do use that word and some don't. It follows then that the ones which use the word are less permissive than those which do not. The condition relates to the use of the firearm and if one is more permissive than the other then that can only mean that you can shoot on other land without breaching said condition. You cannot sensibly argue that a condition which uses the word 'only' is identical to one which does not. The word is clearly there for a reason, is it not? J. Edited March 18, 2013 by JonathanL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 my inkling is its to stop pedants trying to argue against the essence of what is meant by the conditions, anyway as shown Herts put only so its irrelevant and we only have you to vouch for other forces not putting only in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LEE243 Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Ive just looked at mine im open on my rimmie which is condition 5 Condition 6 is for my hornet and says (shall only) condition 7 is for my 243 and says (shall). All totally irrelavant basicly im closesd on my centrefires which i knew ive just had email from feo saying hes cleared a golf coarse for my centrefires so i can shoot the deer and foxes on there. We can all play with words if your rich man and you can afford a top barrister but i will play by there rules and keep my ticket thankyou. alb Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 sorry mate for late reply i had a bit of a heads up from kid who got me into rifles i had 7 farms covering say 6000 arces with shot gun and air rifle so i put 1 a month for 7 months on the 8 month i stuck variation for 22.250 and they said were sick of your name on are desk all time and opened it up for every thing including c/f even tho id never had one so happy days the 4 thousand rounds were used mainly on rabbits as there were 1000s not so many left now . got a mate who was Evan worse than me on phone weekly to them he"s had over 30 rifles in 3 years he wants a 30.06 don't ask he don't Evan shoot deer but farmer is soft as owt and will sign anything he asks for and he"s well in with cops takes 2 of the firearms teams out foxing so has its benefits Thanks for your reply Swiss. I suppose this is an example of where someone starts to use up a large chunk of police resources it can put an Open application on fast forward. With what you've got it maybe would've caused a biblical amount of paper work and time on a closed ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) my inkling is its to stop pedants trying to argue against the essence of what is meant by the conditions, anyway as shown Herts put only so its irrelevant and we only have you to vouch for other forces not putting only in. The HO guidance suggests lots of conditions, few of the ones for general quarry shooting use the word only. I have two certificates, a personal one and a club one. They were issed within about a month of each other. The conditions are almost identical. My personal one reads; 'The firearms and ammunition shall be used for...' The club one reads 'The firearms and ammunition shall be used (only) for.....' The reason for that is that a club is entitled to a free certificate to possess the types of firearms for which it holds home office approval and to use them for the puposes of its approval - target shooting. If it uses them for anything else then it is not entitled to a free certificate. Hence, it is restricted in what it can do with them. It must logically follow, then, that without the use of the word 'only' a certificate holder is not restricted in what he can use the firearms for. If that wasn't the case then why the use of the word 'only' on the club cert? This is not pedantry. As you point out, breaching a condition is a serious offence. A person who takes the condition at face value, which they are perfectly entitled to do, would find themselves in breach according to your interpretation if they used the gun for something else in good faith. You cannot expect people to have to second guess offical, legal wording on the possibility of getting locked up if they get it wrong. J. Edited March 18, 2013 by JonathanL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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